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  • #265087

    Anonymous

    On TV the other night the anchorman referred to Perdizes as a “bairro nobre” in Sao Paulo.
    Seriously?!?!
    I know Perdizes and to be honest it is not a place I’d want to live.
    Currently I’m a stone’s throw away from Avenida Paulista in what is supposed to be a good neighborhood, or so I’m told. Honestly I don’t see it that way. It is a huge downgrade from the lifestyle we had before we moved to Brazil.
    In my book, abairro nobrewould be something like Bel Air in Los Angeles, Fisher Island in Miami or maybe Todt Hill in Staten Island. Or certain areas of Palm Springs, and of Scottsdale.
    What would be the equivalent here in Brazil?
    Parts of Alto Leblon, perhaps?
    Please don’t say Perdizes…

  • #265089

    graham
    Participant

    Ha. You’re in Brasil and hearing descriptions like “bairro nobre” ao “alto padrão” etc and comparing this to the mansions above Hollywood etc? Here is Brasil and these terms are relative to the culture and general living conditions. There are no absolute “equivalents” in Brasil to the type of bairros you mention in the US, as far as I know, though I’ve seen a few pockets of mansions in Rio and Sampa that might look similar, but even then, who in their right mind would want to live in these places and be a target?

    Why compare? Stay tuned to find out.
  • #265090

    Wellington
    Member

    Bairro nobre indicates not a favelabut this could still look like something out of the Stone Age in the eyes of a North American or European visitor.

  • #265092

    Anonymous

    Try as I might to bringEinstein’s theory of relativity to bear on this subject I, of course, failedmiserably to draw a relative comparison to the nobility between first world andthird world neighbourhoods other than the following clues: In the first world,nobility is attributed to high social status districts whose aristocratic pinnacleis self-evident in the aesthetics and collective quality of its infrastructureand architecture. In Brazil such differences in districts can be recognised notonly by odour but also by those wearing shoes and those that are barefoot. Tooharsh?

  • #265094

    Steven
    Participant

    I suppose that “best of the worst” is a more apt description than bairro nobre. Perdizes is definitely among the 10-15 better neighborhoods in Sao Paulo with a fair sampling of the inhabitants there owning second homes at the beach or in the countryside. But, nonetheless, my cunhado who lives there had a gun stuck to his head after a recent visit to the Itau on Avenida Sumare and was quickly relieved of the extra weight of the money in his pockets.

  • #265097

    Bella 777
    Member

    When only 2-3% of the general Brazilian population can afford to live there, it’s considered a bairro nobre. São Paulo is not Brazil and you are no longer in Kansas.
    Try to find the equivalent of those elite US neighbourhoods in any third world country.

  • #265098

    jaenicoll
    Member

    Part of it is about aesthetics. Brazilians don’t really care much for aesthetics. Of course we all are coming at it from a different perspective, for example, those places you mentioned in the USofA are rich but to me gawdy and trashy. Still much better than anything you will find in Brazil but much worse aesthetically, for me, than most middle class European neighborhoods.nesne22014-03-30 10:50:27

  • #265099

    celso
    Member

    Bairro nobre would be anything nicer than a favela in the land of haves and have nots.

  • #265101

    Anonymous

    OK, OK, I get it ….. But there’s got to be a pocket full of manicured lawns and ten car garages SOMEWHERE?
    picolino2014-10-07 12:46:08

  • #265102

    jaenicoll
    Member

    [QUOTE=HalfGringa]When only 2-3% of the general Brazilian population can afford to live there, it’s considered a bairro nobre. São Paulo is not Brazil and you are no longer in Kansas.
    Try to find the equivalent of those elite US neighbourhoods in any third world country.
    [/QUOTE]

    But you can find many more and much better neighborhoods, in the sense of urban design and architecture, in countries that are economically the same level as Brazil. If you take the income level in some of these neighborhoods in Brazil and then go to an equivalent neighborhood in other countries of the same income level you will see a more “nobel” neighborhood. I’m thinking of countries like Argentina, Turkey, even Mexico if you go to cities such as Guadalajara. But of course this topic has already been covered on this site many times.
  • #265104

    jaenicoll
    Member

    It sounds like you are talking about closed communities in the suburbs. Isn’t Alphaville one of those?

  • #265105

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=nesne2]It sounds like you are talking about closed communities in the suburbs. Isn’t Alphaville one of those?[/QUOTE]

    During our Christmas visit we stayed for a couple of nights at the house of a friend of a friend in Indaiatuba. Gated community, no fences, swimming pools, kids playing in the streets, etc. About three acres of land. They told us that the house was worth USD$5 million so, figuring in the Brazilian BS factor, it was probably a USD$2M house.
    Plus you add in the empregada with her jardineiro husband, and life is pretty good.
    The bottom line is that if you want to smell the fresh air you need to get out of Sao Paulo and head for the burbs, just like in any major U.S. city. The folks with the big bucks spend the week in Sao Paulo but escape on the weekend. I guess this means that bairro nobre is a standard of living rather than an area to live in.
  • #265109

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Steven]… Indaiatuba. Gated community, no fences, swimming pools, kids playing in the streets, etc. About three acres of land.[/QUOTE]
    Funny you bring this up, Steven. My better half has been mentioning Indaiatuba a couple of times; nudging me to take the trip with her and go check it out.
    Some survey or other ranked it NUMBER ONE of the “Top 100 best cities to live, in Brazil”.
    About that particular gated community you mention:
    Would you say it is the kind of place where a neighbor wouldn’t look out of place driving a Mercedes or a Jaguar? Or would that draw rubberneckers like in much of the rest of the Brazil?

  • #265112

    Bella 777
    Member

    [QUOTE=picolino]OK, OK, I get it ….. But there’s got to be a pocket full of manicured lawns and ten car garages SOMEWHERE?

    And as for Brazil …. Anywhere?!??
    [/QUOTE]
    Like this:

    Here you go: 5 suites, 10-car Garage:
    http://www.alphaliderimobiliaria.com.br/casas-tambore-santana-de-parnaiba__473006
    Alphaville & Tamborì©>
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1445021&page=17
    Quinta da Baroneza>
    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1423750
    There are others – they are all behind walls and most far away from the city.
    Jardins used to be like this – no walls. Those high walls all through Jardim Europa/America? They hide mansions, lawns and 10-car garages like this.

  • #265114

    graham
    Participant

    [QUOTE=picolino][QUOTE=Steven]… Indaiatuba. Gated community, no fences, swimming pools, kids playing in the streets, etc. About three acres of land.[/QUOTE]
    Funny you bring this up, Steven. My better half has been mentioning Indaiatuba a couple of times; nudging me to take the trip with her and go check it out.
    Some survey or other ranked it NUMBER ONE of the “Top 100 best cities to live, in Brazil”.
    About that particular gated community you mention:
    Would you say it is the kind of place where a neighbor wouldn’t look out of place driving a Mercedes or a Jaguar? Or would that draw rubberneckers like in much of the rest of the Brazil?
    [/QUOTE]

    If it is the huge gated community in Indaiatuba which is being mention…we have friends who live there and it is indeed a very nice place, though it is more like a laid back luxury with a mix of rambling comfortable homes, some with huge lots, and a few mansion-like places too. Although it has security entrances and walls, almost everyone additionally has walls around their own house too. Nothing offers total security in Brasil. There is plenty of wealth there, and you would not stand out too much if you went really high end with your place. As to driving a car of luxo…many do, but such a show of wealth outside of the community when driving everywhere else you go is at your own risk. Still, if you can afford all of this, you surely would not have a problem with the very expensive pedagio you have to pay everytime you enter or leave Indaiatuba…around R$12, if I remember.
    As far as the big mansion communities such as Halfgringa referred, these do exist, but there is a trade-off in Brasil for ostentatious indulgements…more so than in other countries, I think.
    Still, I would live in this community in Indaiatuba, if my life and style could afford it…especially if I could get a lot on one of the high points there. The views are very nice.
    good luck
  • #265115

    Anonymous

    Grads, my wife tells me that the gated community in Indaiatuba is called Helvetia. We’ll have to go check it out.
    And half-gringa, I’ll have to agree: Those links you posted are something else indeed. Certainly a step up from Perdizes. (Someone ought to tell that TV anchorman what a real “bairro nobre” is all about…)

  • #265121

    jaenicoll
    Member

    I guess it is all a matter of perspective. If you lived in a house like that shown above, where I come from, you would be considered no better than the Beverly Hillbillies. Also those who drive Jags or other status cars are usually East Coast transplants or Southern Californians. I guess we are really from different cultures. Good luck finding that here, but I don’t know why you just wouldn’t move back to Guido USA aka Miami if that is what you really want.

  • #265123

    Bella 777
    Member

    Yeah – I wouldn’t live in that monstrosity if you paid me the R$ 20 million or whatever the thing costs.

  • #265124

    Anonymous

    My, my. Such invertedsnobbery is such a character betrayal.

  • #265125

    myrna
    Member

    I have had a couple of millionaire friends here. They prefer to own a penthouse in a building that is centrally located in the city, because no matter how rich you are you wont beat the traffic without a helicopter and even then the guys I knew had big troubles getting people to install helipads…
    A neighborhood like you are talking about would just be a massive target in brazil and for the most part they dont do it.

  • #265127

    Bella 777
    Member

    [QUOTE=picolino]Grads, my wife tells me that the gated community in Indaiatuba is called Helvetia. We’ll have to go check it out.
    And half-gringa, I’ll have to agree: Those links you posted are something else indeed. Certainly a step up from Perdizes. (Someone ought to tell that TV anchorman what a real “bairro nobre” is all about…)
    [/QUOTE]
    Most journalists are very socialist, so anything above the new ‘Classe Mì©dia’ is nobre – remember that TV is for the masses. The masses can’t live in Perdizes, it became too expensive.
    However, the main point is that a lot of those 200-400 m2 apartments in Perdizes, Jardins, Itaim, cost the same as a mansion in Alphaville: R$ 2- 10 million – high-end housing.

  • #265131

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=HalfGringa]Yeah – I wouldn’t live in that monstrosity if you paid me the R$ 20 million or whatever the thing costs.
    [/QUOTE]

    That’s just financially unsound thinking, young lady!
  • #265139

    Bella 777
    Member

    [QUOTE=Paulistano USA][QUOTE=HalfGringa]Yeah – I wouldn’t live in that monstrosity if you paid me the R$ 20 million or whatever the thing costs.
    [/QUOTE]

    That’s just financially unsound thinking, young lady!

    [/QUOTE]
    That sort of lifestyle is dangerous!! Blink and suddenly you’ve spent the 22 million to look like this:

    Then you have to sell the house, to pay off Helo Magazine so they won’t print pictures of you. No way. Too much of a headache. LOL

  • #265142

    jaenicoll
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit]My, my. Such invertedsnobbery is such a character betrayal.

    [/QUOTE]

    I’ll readily admit it is a character fault of mine. I think it has to do with where I grew up. We are snobs but perhaps in a different way than the dominant regions of the USofA where ostentation is almost a virtue. I grew up with many people who could afford houses like that above but would laugh at anybody who would actually buy one. It’s the millionaire Subaru driving class………

    nesne22014-03-31 12:15:04

  • #265152

    kevin owen
    Participant

    [QUOTE=nesne2] ]

    . ¬†I grew up with many people who could afford houses like that above but would laugh at anybody who would actually buy one. ¬†It’s the millionaire Subaru driving class………

    [/QUOTE]
    A bit like the Kardashians or something. Lovely family.

  • #265154

    Anonymous

    The issue with invertedsnobs is that they quite often fail to realise that their aversion to thetrappings of wealth is a deeply engrained, perhaps sub-conscious, despair oftheir own personal financial situations. The value of that magnificent mansion,gaudy as it may be, may represent but a fraction of the owners total wealth andit is even possible that a work of art hanging in the guest bathroom may havemore monetary value than the house itself. Bentleys in the garage, furnishings,tapestries and general trinkets and knickknacks, including fine Egyptian cottonsheets and silk underwear through which to fart whilst supping fine wines is a stylethat lends itself to a quality of life to be emulated if not envied. All therest is for monks and hermits.

  • #265162

    jaenicoll
    Member

    I’m not against wealth nor mansions, more power to people who can afford good things in life, I also know it is ridiculous for me to be criticizing something I will most likely never be able to afford. Plus my taste and opinion really matters to no one who is in that social circle anyways, but……That mansion is gaudy as F_ck. If displays of wealth are all about signaling then the signal that I am getting is…….

  • #265163

    Anonymous

    Well there you go, thatclip epitomises the contemporary preferred way of moronic thinking about how thewealthy behave: the Jerk that is exemplified by the so-called celebrity culture,be that Hollywood, TV oozing puss programmes such as Soaps, Big Brother, XFactor or ill-prepared lottery winners; the logical compensation being, whowould want to life like that?

    Take the time toconsider â‚ǨÀúold money’ and the puppeteer elite that quietly own it all while theyluxuriate in intelligently enforced anonymity. You won’t see them comingbecause they don’t want you to.

  • #265164

    kevin owen
    Participant

    And ‘old money’ is somehow better?
    ‘Intelligently enforced anonymity’…codswallop.
    ‘Puppeteer elite’…
    ‘You won’t see them coming’…
    A few public school boys with their snouts in the trough.
    This is just drivel.

  • #265165

    jaenicoll
    Member

    The jerk doesn’t exemplify the contemporary thinking of how the realwealthy behave. Or maybe it does in some circles but that is just jealousy or ignorance. It is a good spoof on how the flash and trash behave. The people who live in certain parts of LA or all of Miami and whose life is about signaling yet their signals would be laughed at by most of the old money. It is the difference between the person who buys Louis Vuitton ski clothing and goes skiing at Aspen and the person who regularly goes to Jackson Hole or Sun Valley.nesne22014-03-31 22:19:51

  • #265166

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=kevbo]And ‘old money’ is somehow better?
    ‘Intelligently enforced anonymity’…codswallop.
    ‘Puppeteer elite’…
    ‘You won’t see them coming’…
    A few public school boys with their snouts in the trough.
    This is just drivel.
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh dear, someone’s alittle bitter and living in denial of the awful, awful truth.

    P.S. If you want tochange your circumstances, first pick your parents. TongueLOLLOLLOL

  • #265173

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Fortunately I have done ok. Not because I was handed everything, but through a combination of being pushed, by the right parents, and having the raw materials to start with.
    We see you coming every step. From the moment you open your mouth, give us the silly handshake, talk about the ‘old school’ or simply that you call your parents mummy and daddy when you are in your 40’s.
    I am a socialist at heart, I believe everyone is entitled to the best healthcare and education possible. I am also a realist and know this will never be the case.
    Bitter? No. Long ago I realized you can’t change the world. I just look after my family and hope my kids will reap the rewards. The silly handshake not so much.

  • #265200

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=kevbo]Fortunately I have done ok. Not because I was handed everything, but through a combination of being pushed, by the right parents, and having the raw materials to start with.
    We see you coming every step. From the moment you open your mouth, give us the silly handshake, talk about the ‘old school’ or simply that you call your parents mummy and daddy when you are in your 40’s.
    I am a socialist at heart, I believe everyone is entitled to the best healthcare and education possible. I am also a realist and know this will never be the case.
    Bitter? No. Long ago I realized you can’t change the world. I just look after my family and hope my kids will reap the rewards. The silly handshake not so much.[/QUOTE]

    Kevbo, as a socialist atheart you’re like meat at the barbeque of life: prime, seasoned and ready forconsumption by realists. When you say, “We see you coming” etc. you reveal yourstation in life and not only that, for some extraordinary reason, you appear toassociate me personally with the silly handshake and old school privilegedminority, who by the way are not the mega rich. Incidentally, Masons are notnormally concomitant with the wealthy but more rather with today’s wannabes inthis new century. So, far from being a silver spooned lucky bastard, I havewhatever little I have through the self-generated initiative of takingadvantage of what is available to all and sundry, and it’s all there to be seenand grasped; that wood amongst the trees.

    Meanwhile it would bodewell for all socialists to finally grasp the mathematical realities of the globalwealth distribution; simply put for the hard of understanding it goes likethis: If all wealth were to be taken from the owners of it and then redistributedequally among the teaming multimillions on our little blue planet we would eachreceive the princely sum of $300. So, dear friend, if you feel that 300 dollarswould change your life and rid you of all envy and the struggle of personal ambitionsuch that you would live happily ever after, I’m certain that a collection fromthis forum would be delighted to rid the world of at least one misguided socialistand, in consequence, have you search in life’s forest for your own piece of prosperitywithout coveting your neighbours goods.

  • #265207

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Yes, dear friend, you are correct to deduce from my belief in fair access to education and health care, that what I am after is a $300 hand out. Well spotted.
    I too have made what I have from a little luck and plenty of work. I am now in a position to enjoy it and am certainly not riddled with envy.
    What does annoy me is this talk of revealing ‘your station in life’. This reminds me so much of the misplaced arrogance of public school boys I encountered at college.
    Just keep telling yourself mummy and daddy didn’t feed you with a silver spoon and you would have done it all by yourself anyway.

  • #265212

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=kevbo]Yes, dear friend, you are correct to deduce from my belief in fair access to education and health care, that what I am after is a $300 hand out. Well spotted.
    I too have made what I have from a little luck and plenty of work. I am now in a position to enjoy it and am certainly not riddled with envy.
    What does annoy me is this talk of revealing ‘your station in life’. This reminds me so much of the misplaced arrogance of public school boys I encountered at college.
    Just keep telling yourself mummy and daddy didn’t feed you with a silver spoon and you would have done it all by yourself anyway.[/QUOTE]

    You may well believe infairness of access to all things bright and beautiful for everybody; every champagnesocialist with whom I’ve conversed wants all of those things for everybody,including those poor little generic fly-blown children with which the mediatrolls society’s conscience when it suit a purpose. No doubt it’s comfortingand politically correct to have a conscience and a belief in these things andincluded in this group are the believers in a God; a perverse psychopath, who,in accordance with such belief, has the power to right the wrongs of this worldyet, mysteriously, chooses not to; yet He loves us.

    Meanwhile the remnantsof your â‚ǨÀúMummy & Daddy â‚Ǩ public school’ inferiority complex is showing fromyour college days and now that your all grown up you should put these childishthings behind you lest you visit the sins of the father uponâ‚Ǩ¬¶

  • #265229

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=Karaev7]
    Ave Paulista is a marxist gay bairro. I would’t call it nobre. But still better than Perdizes, but you gotta watch your ass……..
    [/QUOTE]

    LOLLOLLOL
    What happens to Av. Paulista on the weekends? It turns into a real freak show!
  • #265239

    myrna
    Member

    What makes the biggest impression on me about Brazil is not the young males that think they are the center of the universe, that happens in most places. Its the lower class people ho just accept their lot in life and refer to themselves as lower class and say things like ‘oh, I dont belong there’.
    In the US an EU the lower classes are generally uppity and with bad attitudes and think they ought to be rich. The lower classes in brazil really feel as if they are lower class and thats just the way it is. Anything not sh*tty as their area (like perdizes) is ‘nobre’ and they dont belong there unless theyre going to clean someones house.

  • #265373

    jecv
    Member

    Jardim Pernambuco in Rio is a noble neighborhood. Security guards everywhere. Behind gated entrances. Most people don’t know they do have the right to walk in there past the guards.
    I think the condominio is at least R$ 5k per month.
    The US consul lives there, with his security.
    Joatinga is similar.
    Other gated communities are inaccessible to us, without invitation. They are noble.
    Yes, Leblon and Ipanema are conidered bairro nobre, but way below the level of Jardim Pernambuco.

  • #269061

    Tony
    Participant

    Well, you’d have to make this evaluation based upon the region you commute to work. After all this is a city with well over 11 million inhabitants.
    So as far as the West side is concerned , Higienopolis, Pacaembu, Perdizes, Pinheiros, Sumare, Vila Madalena are top tier. Then on a lower rank you would have Vila Romana, Agua Branca, Pompeia, Barra Funda. I consider Santa Cecilia down Centre. Believe it not, Morumbi and Butanta are also West.
    Then on South side you would have Itaim Bibi, Vila Nova Conceicao, Moema, Indianapolis, Alto Boa Vista, Jardins Vila Mariana, Ibirapuera and Vila Clementino.
    I could go on , but the point is, given the cumbersome job of moving through São Paulo, your reference of Alto Padrao is the one closest to you.

  • #269081

    Anonymous

    No, no, no, and no.
    Based on what Rebroker@sampa just listed here, apparently I already live in one of those upper “Alto Padrao” neighborhoods. Sorry, but no: I honestly don’t feel that I do.
    However, I am flexible. I don’t have to be in just one particular spot, work-wise. I am fortunately enough to be able to live pretty much anywhere, so my search parameters for a nice neighborhood are NOT restricted by needing to necessary be close to a specific location. I don’t have to sacrifice my quality of life for the convenience of being close to an office.
    In fact, I wouldn’t mind moving out of Sao Paulo (or any big city for that matter).
    Again, however, the question remains:
    To where??
    ….assuming that any location is possible, anywhere in Brazil, and that money is also not the main factor in making the choice.
    picolino2014-08-11 06:47:08

  • #270584

    Tony
    Participant

    I posted to this thread way back, however a recent exchange made me to think things through, and provide some fresh insight into this discussion. So here we go….
    I had a woman who wanted to buy an apartment with 90+ sq meters (roughly 1000 sq ft ) on Jd America and paying no more than BR $1,200,00.
    Knowing the neighborhood I told her it would be next to impossible to score and apartment there for that price, let alone with that square footage. For one reason, Jd. America, Jd. Europa, and Jd Paulistano do not allow for vertical buildings taller than. 3 stories. And they must be Single Family. And I outlined all the streets delimited by the neighborhood.
    The woman fired back saying she knew the neighborhood her whole life, I was full of it, bla,bla,bla. Not wanting to squabble with her, I produced a list of so called Jardim America, for her perusal. Ow, she sounded grouchy allright. Must be taking medicines. It was a good carrot. 80% down, sold her previous condo, needed to move yesterday, I was rap dancing on this one.
    Anyways, here is the cold bucket:
    Doing some research, my intuition proved me right. Jardim America, along with Pacaembu, Butanta City, and Alto that Lapa were planned and developed by a British Company in the early 20th Century, named City of São Paulo Improvements and Freehold Company Limited, or simply known as Companhia City.
    Their master plan, which was never revised, didn’t allow for verticalization. They devised sinuous tree lined streets with lots mean to build single family homes in a sprawl.
    Google Maps, acting on inaccurate third party supplied data, astute developers marketing upscale on cheaper land, can change a neighborhood’s name at will. Even newcomer residents can make such claim, on their claims to be on upscale grounds. Not the Postal Service. So I went and checked all the listings I sent her. None of them made the grade, according to the Brazilian Postal Database. At best, they are at the edge where the master plan ( never revised in 1973, nor in 2002 ). Nonetheless it doesn’t make for the right zip code.
    Further, if you check the sky line , or for that matter, Google Earth, these neighborhoods still look like suburban sprawlings, smack dab in the middle of the Concrete Jungle, just as you were in Park Slope.
    Mixed with old money residences you would see, not in a distant past, Haute Couture Residences, and now, Six Name Law Offices, Consulates, and Medical Clinics ( the ones making plastic surgeries on the obscenely wealthy ).
    She refuses to consider Jd Paulista, Cerqueira Cesar, Itaim Bibi, all with her square footage and price tag. I figured the old hag doesn’t want to mix with top buck harlots, wannabe yuppies and the like. My hands are tied. I can’t lie.
    On Perdizes, what I see through this thread, maybe folks downhill are calling their Hamlet Perdizes, when it should be Pompeia, Vila Madalena, Sumare. Perdizes is a fine upper middle class enclave, around PUC.
    As for me, still live in Santo Andre, with a blue collar chip on my shoulder. One commission poorer. Oh well, maybe it’s time to move shacks in Penha or Aricanduva

  • #27353

    kmb
    Member

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