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  • #265570

    Anonymous

    I have been coming to this forum for over 1 year now and enjoy reading other people’s stories on the particularly painful days :-) Lately, I have found myself being a sort of “mentor” to a handful of gringoes up here in Fortaleza. I have found myself talking a LOT lately about “how” to live here successfully. I have found that there are, in fact, 2 Brazils. The first one is inefficient and miserable. The second one is absolutely fabulous. To see the fabulous Brazil, you must do the following:

    1. Leave your birth country behind you, as far as your expectations are concerned (if you are from a developed nation).
    2. Learn to communicate in Portuguese (I am surprised by the number of gringoes who cannot even
    begin to do this!).
    3. Change your morality. Brazilians like to complain about things like corruption, inefficiency, bad
    education, etc. But, honestly, they are ALL corrupt, inefficient, and poorly educated to some
    degree. Leave you idealism at the door and become corrupt, inefficient, and poorly educated
    when it serves you to do so!
    4. Do not resist the realities of the place. Dive into them and become fluent in them (so to speak).
    5. Remember that jeitinho Brazileiro is a GOOD thing in Brazil!
    6. Leave moral indignation at the door and become a shark :-)
    7. Get accustomed to the fact that corruption, lying, cheating, and stealing are a part of the culture
    and that this is changing, but will not strongly take hold for another generation.
    8. Make friends with the upper class of the society and watch doors fly open for you.
    9. Learn how to play the game their way. Remember, your ideas of right vs wrong are really
    only arbitrarily based on you social conditioning.
    10. Befriend the smart, capable, and honest people that you meet. Treat them as if they were
    precious gold, because they probably have a nicely formed network of other honest and
    capable people in every walk of life that can help you when you face problems.
    11. Develop your ability to be non-judgemental and patient.
    12. Learn not to show frustration on your face.
    13. Remember that people respond quickly to emotional stories and emotional connections more
    than logical ones.
    14. Consider moving to another country, if the lifestyle is impossible for you!
  • #265574

    Anonymous

    We stand on theshoulders of our ancestors as they, in turn, did likewise down through thecenturies of social and political evolution; all striving in the cause ofliberty, fraternity and equality. Then along comes this bozo with his list of14 points of enlightened advice suggesting that we throw our morality to thefour winds and behave like the depraved uncultured and ignorant masses thatserve little purpose in this world other than adding to the greenhouse effect withtheir flatulence. My God but there’s nothing worse than an uppity redneckpontificating on the human condition. One can only trust that this self-styled mentoris buying the beers for the handful of his hippy gringo followers. Jesus youain’t fella!

  • #265575

    Anonymous

    Nope! Just pontificating on the harsh realities that people from developed countries must face and understand if they want to live in Brazil. SmileUnfortunately your idealistic views about liberty, fraternity, and equality are simply not the reality for Brazil…yet…well…not unless you are rich!

  • #265576

    Anonymous

    LOL I love your numbered lists, and given that they are not entirely compatible or internally consistent, perhaps the wisdom they contain might be summarized thus: survival in Brasil means constantly living with contradiction, cognitive dissonance, multiple levels of incoherence, stunning levels of dissembling and Macchiavellian (and Orwellian) intrigue, and in general many mental states we mostly learned were um, not exactly ideal. Insane even. Which of course means I think you know what you are talking about.
    Not sure you read my long intro post, but I hope we will be friends one day. Sharing insanity might be the only way to make it survivable.
    Man, I’m feeling like I may start having PTSD flashbacks, maybe lurking here all day wasn’t such a good idea, I was hoping to quell anxieties but mostly I’m freaking out lol;)

  • #265577

    Anonymous

    LOL! I couldn’t have said it better myself! SmileI am now much more comfortable with paradox, inconsistency, and insanity than I ever was before! THIS is the secret and I am glad you understand LOLbamabrasileira2014-04-11 20:49:40

  • #265578

    Anonymous

    I fail to see anyvirtue in the deliberate compromise of one’s values, morality or character inthe cause of simply living, by choice of convenience, in a backward country – andin what cause, sunshine, mangos or tits & ass? Surely, in time, one’s self-respectwould become an internal secret persuasion and ultimate delusion.

    Continued exposure tosuch retrograde behaviour would become the norm from which it follows that onewould become a corrupt caricature of the gollywog and therefore worse thanthose with whom we wish integrate and seek to appease. The term, going native,comes to mind; on the outside one’s appearance may be Armani but, internally,the soul would be dressed in a scruffy and crumpled linin suit stained by a lifeof dishonesty. We should be made of sterner stuff.

  • #265579

    Anonymous

    @ Esprit…CHILD PLEASE!LOLthere you go with your idealism again! I can assure you that many of us are very adept at putting on masks to match the situations we might find ourselves in, without forgetting who we are…well I am anyway. Remember that all morality is arbitrary. Brazil has a long way to go before it sufficiently moves into its “higher moral consciousness”. Until that time, you will be swimming upstream if you try to impose your “first world” morality on the “third world”. Better to swim downstream at all times and be happy when you meet those who are already made of “sterner stuff”.

  • #265581

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@ Esprit…CHILD PLEASE!LOLthere you go with your idealism again! I can assure you that many of us are very adept at putting on masks to match the situations we might find ourselves in, without forgetting who we are…well I am anyway. Remember that all morality is arbitrary. Brazil has a long way to go before it sufficiently moves into its “higher moral consciousness”. Until that time, you will be swimming upstream if you try to impose your “first world” morality on the “third world”. Better to swim downstream at all times and be happy when you meet those who are already made of “sterner stuff”. [/QUOTE]

    I refuse to swim insuch contaminated waters. And who, in your greater social circle, would be ableto determine who or what you actually are other than a masked two-faced fraudsterwith flexible and arbitrary, if not capricious, morals all the while in the exclusivepursuit of self-interest and convenience; not a very attractive person butpossibly a typical Brazilian? I couldn’t be such a person unlessdesperate to the point of despair.

  • #265582

    Anonymous

    @ Esprit – If that is the case, then I feel sorry for you and hope you find another place to live! Otherwise, you will be like all the other Brazilians or gringoes living in Brazil who unsuccessfully buck the current with their arbitrary morality. Also, you just reminded me of a point I forgot to add in the original post:

    15. Do not trust people who talk about how “good” they are. These are generally the most delusional, darkest, conniving, and destructive Brazilians you will meet. They are very good at lying to themselves and will happily destroy the world around them without even clue that they are doing so.
  • #265583

    Anonymous

    Esprit: I totally hear you, its why I had such a horrendous time trying to cope with my experiences and why I have such apprehension about going back. I began to think that with enough time in Rio, I would either lose my mind or lose my humanity in order to ‘adapt’. Not because I’m such a paragon of virtue, but certainly I do see my life in ethical terms; it matters to me to seek a way of life that I can look on and feel has some character and integrity. I’m an atheist and a materialist, not overly prone to moralistic judgements, but none of my post-modern sympathies mean I’m okay with shrugging off cruel and unjust behavior. Right and wrong may be completely situational, contingent and relative instead of Absolute, but they still matter in a world with other people.
    In my fellow group of expats, mostly grad students and other internship fellows from the US and Europe, those of us on the more ‘idealistic’ end of the spectrum (particularly those of us on the Red end of things lol) had by far the WORST time in Rio. Those among us with a more ‘flexible’ approach had a much easier, even positive experience. I simply could not learn to be blind and numb in the way it seemed one needed to be in order to just get through the daily exposure to injustice and still have a great time partying on the beach. But perhaps that is simply what is required. How to do that and not lose one’s humanity over time is a real question.
    The only Brazilian person I know who has done it really well is also from an elite family, with a secure position and status that allows him to be the crazy commie maverick that he is. He somehow lives a life of hope and meaning while still being quite open about how hopeless much of what he does is. And he shrugs off the social cost. He is the one truly free Brazilian that I know, who lives the way he wants. And I never met anybody else remotely like him.
    Those of us far less privileged (the vast majority of Brazilians/expats I know who are still there) don’t have those luxuries.
    bama: You say that linking up with elites, working your vertical connections the way the locals do, is key. No argument there, in terms of a strategy that can pay off. Yet, you also point out how utterly vapid and obnoxious (I would even say vile and repulsive) they usually are. How do you manage? That one about hiding what you really think, making sure your face is the perfect mask? I never learned that one lol. I despised most of the people I was forced to interact with, I had to listen to things that a person simply could not say nowadays in the US spouted by spoiled entitled jerks and pretend it didn’t make me want to throw up. It never got easier, just harder, and it showed.
    In the US, I can play the phony game when I’m paid for my time, like work. But on my own time, my real actual free life, I refuse. I only hang out with people I like and respect and want to be with. How do you actually tolerate the people your strategy suggests are ‘key’ to a survival experience?

  • #265585

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@ Esprit – If that is the case, then I feel sorry for you and hope you find another place to live! Otherwise, you will be like all the other Brazilians or gringoes living in Brazil who unsuccessfully buck the current with their arbitrary morality. Also, you just reminded me of a point I forgot to add in the original post:

    15. Do not trust people who talk about how “good” they are. These are generally the most delusional, darkest, conniving, and destructive Brazilians you will meet. They are very good at lying to themselves and will happily destroy the world around them without even clue that they are doing so.

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh, please, I am not deserving of your pity.Know that during the many years of living here I have carved out a bubble ofnear excellence that is not yet, unfortunately, totally immune from the assholesthat, in their clumsy ignorance, strive to curb my vibe. Happily I can leave thecountry with dignity at any time of my choosing and with my character intact. You,however, appear to advocate the emulation of the type described in 15thof your list; a list that represents the sad indictment that most people prefer,when wrong, the comfort of being in large groups.

  • #265586

    Anonymous

    @ fofinho and esprit – Wearing a mask is quite easy for me because I am an African American woman who grew up in the south. For me, this masking phenomenon is nothing more than the “code-switching” I have had to do all my life when interacting with white people of a certain class. They fear Black people who speak Ebonics or who express themselves in ways that are typical of our community, so I slip on my “refined white-girl” veneer when I interact with them! It openned many doors for me in the USA because they were not threatened by me. I see the same thing at play here and it is nothing more than playing the game :-) If you are a white Republican, I can see why such a thing is so shocking to you. You probably have not had to play it very much.

    I would say that Injustice simply is what it is. And I know EXACTLY why your rich friends with the crazy commie son allow the boy to live “freely”. I have witnessed this “freedom” with virtually ALL of the upper class Brazilians I have met, which is why I like moving in their circles. Again, if you have all the right connections, then you have freedom. I also like moving in “poorer” circles too, because that is how you get to walk around on the street safely. When people recognize you as part of their neighborhood, they do not shoot you or rob you!
    I manage the vapid nature of the elite by understanding why I want to know them. I want to know them in order to move myself forward and because I like dressing up, allowing them to show me off to their friends, and networking. Its kinda fun, when you take your expectations off their shoulders! Its nice to get dressed up and eat some expensive food on someone else’s dime while nto having to be that smart to impress anyone!
    Also, I do have a handful of genuine friends here who keep me grounded – some Brazilian and some gringo! I quit having “bad days” when I discovered the “secrets!” Big smile

    bamabrasileira2014-04-11 22:46:39

  • #265587

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@ fofinho and esprit – Wearing a mask is quite easy for me because I am an African American woman who grew up in the south. For me, this masking phenomenon is nothing more than the “code-switching” I have had to do all my life when interacting with white people of a certain class. They fear Black people who speak Ebonics or who express themselves in ways that are typical of our community, so I slip on my “refined white-girl” veneer when I interact with them! It openned many doors for me in the USA because they were not threatened by me. I see the same thing at play here and it is nothing more than playing the game :-) If you are a white Republican, I can see why such a thing is so shocking to you. You probably have not had to play it very much.

    I would say that Injustice simply is what it is. And I know EXACTLY why your rich friends with the crazy commie son allow the boy to live “freely”. I have witnessed this “freedom” with virtually ALL of the upper class Brazilians I have met, which is why I like moving in their circles. Again, if you have all the right connections, then you have freedom. I also like moving in “poorer” circles too, because that is how you get to walk around on the street safely. When people recognize you as part of their neighborhood, they do not shoot you or rob you!
    I manage the vapid nature of the elite by understanding why I want to know them. I want to know them in order to move myself forward and because I like dressing up, allowing them to show me off to their friends, and networking. Its kinda fun, when you take your expectations off their shoulders! Its nice to get dressed up and eat some expensive food on someone else’s dime while nto having to be that smart to impress anyone!
    Also, I do have a handful of genuine friends here who keep me grounded – some Brazilian and some gringo! I quit having “bad days” when I discovered the “secrets!” Big smile

    [/QUOTE]

    I now begin to understand where you’re comingfrom; you need to hustle and needs must.

  • #265588

    Anonymous

    Just to be clear, I’m a commie/marxist/queer/atheist lol, definitely NOT a Republican or anything like it.
    But being a homo who came from a right wing crazy fundamentalist family, I do know something about masks; its just that I hated wearing them and thought I wouldn’t have to anymore once I escaped that kind of world and social setting. I’ve been homeless, I ate garbage, my family-values family disowned me, and I’ve done desperate things to survive. I quit maintaining those masking skills, lots of survival skills too, it all seems like a lifetime ago, maybe not such a great thingâ‚Ǩ¬¶
    Among your inconsistent items: you do point out that you need to find those good people, the ones who keep you grounded, yet, how on earth do you find them playing the game of masks among the empty people? How will you know each other and what lies beneath the mask?
    My rich free friend has nothing to do with his family, they are as evil as many of the elites. But since he already inherited, he does what he likes. And he’s a bigwig lawyer at the elite university, he can fight like an SOB when he needs to. He’s got a rare combination of gifts. We became friends because I was open and blunt in my rough portuguese about what I really thought about things, so he knew he could trust me. He is lonely in Brazil, his friends are people mostly down the socio-economic scale who often take advantage of him (and that is to be expected and perfectly sensible and he knows that and doesn’t usually resent it) or foreigners. Freedom doesn’t mean he has it all, just that he is free from what is much more coercive in terms of social and financial pressure for most people. But it has costs. It may one day cost him his life.
    I’m not remotely that brave, I will have to fit in, whatever the cost. I just want to stay sane and not hate myself or most people around me. Not impossible in most places, but it does seem to be extra hard in Brazil. Or at least something I have to learn how to do well.

  • #265589

    Anonymous

    @fonfinho – I would DEFINITELY say that many parts of Brazil (and perhaps ALL of Brazil) is not for those who are extremely sensitive to showing up in different ways based upon the situation at hand, or who have a need to be “consistent” in all things. I think that the nature of Brazil is paradoxical, hypocritical, and two-faced. Whatever the place you are in, you must mold to fit it, as it will not bend for you. And if you cannot do it, you must leave. I had to leave Ireland for this very reason. There was just NOTHING on that tiny little, static, unchanging island for someone like me.

    On finding the good ones: if you spend enough time around people, the masks eventually fade naturally. Then you can choose whether to stay or go! If you do not “need” for people to be a certain way or to match your view of how things should be, the “going” is quite easy.
    I think your rich friend – the one who understands the value of the “po’ folks” – has adapted in the way that I had previously mentioned. They have their networks too. Lending a helping hand to them occassionally is one of the very things that will keep him alive. Most of the robbers here steer clear of “their own”. Also, he didn’t earn any of that money and probably has some hidden guilt about it that he does not share with the world. Thus, I’d venture to say that he is happy to slide them some help every now and again.
    Being a chameleon in life is not difficult at all if you know who you are! I think that in Brazil – again – you cannot resist what the place has to show you. You just have to accept or move on (but I think this is true with ALL places, isn’t it?)
  • #265590

    Anonymous

    Lots there to chew on.
    In some ways it seems like its about learning a very fine sense of timing, when and how to shift masks on a moment’s instinct, how to play various roles almost at the same time, pick up on clues when it really matters. Jeez, so very hard in any culture, you have a rare gift for it I think.
    Did you ever read Geography of Bliss? Interesting to read about the various places, especially if you know them personally, and try to gauge how well you might ‘fit’ in better, or worse. Some people do really have what it takes to make a great life in Brazil, others do not. Same for Ireland, the US, Albania, wherever.
    There are no easy countries in Latin America, there is no Thailand where you can be an utterly clueless idiot and still love it and be treated very well lol. I’m just puzzled by why I really loved Colombia and can easily imagine living there, almost did in fact, but Brazil gives me palpitations and panic attacks. I think my great fear is that I do not have what it takes to make it in Brazil, even though I did very well in places that might seem tough in similar ways. I just don’t have a choice.
    I had connections in Rocinha, I was adopted by kids and a few key adults who kept me safe. But no question it wasn’t like mingling with the ‘popular classes’ in the other countries where I have lived as a tall white man who obviously doesn’t fit in. It was far more dangerous and difficult for me in Brazil, and clearly not something I was supposed to be doing. And never possible on my own whatsoever; without an introduction by a trusted person I would be dead meat. And how on earth to find that person when almost no non-poor Brazilian wants anything to do with poor people, certainly not to visit the empregada where she lives with her family!
    I hope I make your ‘cut’ as a friend when we end up in town, you can tutor me and slap me upside the head when I’m stupid. Not sure what I can offer you in return just yet, but we’ll figure something out;)
    It is the rich that will kill my friend, not the poor, he has some very big and powerful enemies. I have to say I felt a lot more actual fear at some of the parties I went to with him among the True Rulers of Brazil then I ever felt in Rocinha. My muggers were usually decent guys, as long as I was prepared with the money to give them. The elites at these parties who talked about slaughtering street kids, they were the truly scary and dangerous ones.

  • #265591

    spenymoon
    Member

    “Cordiality” of Brazilians is as artificial as plastic smile of Americans. It is just a social behaviour mask. Behind that mask people are as anywhere else. Yes people wear mask anywhere (except probably Russia, where they don’t bother about you unless you are a personal friend) but only Brazilians managed to sell their mask as a genuine national feature.

  • #265602

    Steven
    Participant

    This issue of accomodation, conciliation, and adaptation is a real one and I applaud bamab for addressing it. As an American married to a Brazilian, now living in the U.S., there are many times daily where I know that we are living in parallel but non-intersecting universes. Her thought processes are much different than any first-worlder that I’ve ever met.

    And these different thought processes of hers appear to be common to Brazilians in general. As a visitor to the country the situation can be somewhat endearing. However, living day to day with the situation can be quite frustrating. And now, fighting the urge to expand my post into several paragraphs of examples I will simply say that they best approach for me is to just pretend that I didn’t hear her twisted Brazilian logic and instead go about my business.
  • #265605

    spenymoon
    Member

    Steven I bet for her your approach and logic is as twisted as vice versa. And I see nothing bad in it. Just take it into consideration. If you understand Brazilian way of thinking it doesn’t mean you have to follow it. Not at all. Understanding the differences can help in taking right decisions. Trying to eliminate the differences will end anyone in a mental hospital. Especially if you are trying single-handedly change the mindeset of a whole country.

  • #265607

    your list is pretty complete. Maybe one to add is“just don’t give a fook about anything”.
    The language… the only way to get there is to use it, a lot. I honestly don’t know how someone can live here and not speak the language. I think life here would be completely boring.
    Me, I can flip between either one, and say anything in PT that I can say in English. It just takes practice.
    A suggestion would be to learn both the formal and the informal. They don’t use much of the formal language (present subjunctive for example), but if you ever need to take a test, you’ll still pass and look like you really studied the language. Just see the language as something fun.

  • #265613

    vcbkol
    Member

    I can-t even describe how pissed I got reading your advices miss! Before jumping to my neck, even if I am sure that you are not a mean or bad person, keep for yourself any excuses or reply like I am sexist or racist or anything like this just to express yourself, cause if you looked for attention, now you got it and if you were a man and telling to me all this in my face I would probably kick your ass to compensate for all the Brazilian fellows that pissed me during my 4 years here and for sure they will continue like this.

    1. Only a scumbag would leave his country behind in any sense except the distance!!!Does not matter what sort of country you come from, my country is my country!!! I miss it every second and I breathe and do anything thanks to my land and to my people! I did not move back here by choice, my parents in law are old and I can’t wait to move back to my country in any sort of expectations you would regard, Brazil does not have to be compared with no big shot country, neither with Burkina Faso, neither to none, cause here is all about living without any expectations.
    2. Many as myself speak very good Portyguese, I have been learning it in less than 3 months just hanging out and working in the streets and with people and even with giria or with whatever does not make it easier in terms of not being cheated or stolen or whatever. Be better surprised by the number of Brazilians that don-t even know how to speak Portuguese.
    3. TO CHANGE MY MORALITY????!!!!! ARE YOU EVEN EXISTING TO SAY THIS TO OTHER HUMAN BEING!??!?!?!Are you realy out of your mind???I suppose so because here everything is conducted to teh most absurd way so your limits are neven delimited in terms of any good sense so to let my idealism in the toilet to not even expect a hello back from your uneducated citizens that give no matter about nothing and about noody – all a fakeness and a powerfull shameless and lowest type of human depersonalization and alteration of self????! to become Brazilian just because I am trapped here you recommand to others to be a foolish ignorant????
    4. The realities around are smelling like esgoto so I can not dive into becoming a part of your reality which considering that you c**t some 200 mil. people you have so few characteristics that may differenciate more than maximum 3 typologies of biological material considered such as social or whatsoever! ARE YOU WITH NO SHAME???!!!?!? How can you dare to indicate to anybody such a monstuozity to not resist the realities – if it was like this, than I should be passing through your crowds like a tank putting down everybody in my path just because nobody even knows to walk in the street and if I am supposed to reproduce such behaviour I would be just like anyone else, a rude selfish ignorant!!! Even withh the price that I would go crazy(and if I was not loosing my mind yet, hardly to believe, but my desgust will probably affect some internal organs of mine). And if I live in a quebrada I have to be part of that rwlity and then if I move to a burgues neighbourhood I have to be also a reality of ther,e or how, miss public advisor?!?!? I will resist and resist being educated, with good sense and will oppose to all the empty monsters that make the living of some very normal people a hell with their way of forming a rotten distorted reality as such! When you go to other country you represent in the maximum your country, but being yourself is you in any part of the world, if you visit some eskimos in the North Pole you will want to become one, right??
    5. Jeitinho brasileiro is the expression of the human deformity at its worst; you are not in the position to tell to others to follow this absurd lack of anything human just to go further immitating some demented psychos that are crushing eachother just to be the first in the bus or in the line, thinking each one is the best, while almost anyone is a real jerk from hell! IF IT IS JEITINHO BRASILEIRO, LET IT BE FOR THE BRAZILIANS, OTHERWISE WOULD BE NAMED JEITHINHO DA GRINGOLANDIA! You are the lowest subspecies of any pathological abnormality named a jerk with the ID on its chest kissing asses of the bosses, faking that you work, forgetting how and who raised you and where you come from, you would sell anyone just for a little advantage or only to high up your self esteem just because you feel discriminated and you probably are but arriving in a company gave you wings and now the burgueses are your ethalons now. So follow your jeitinho somwhere where is not implying other people`s reduction of self and humiliation and depersonalization and animalization!
    6. To leave moral indignation is also making me more crazy!!!!! You are indignating me, without agessivity I pass my thoughts tou you, this is the voice of my pure desgust against beings like you that are all over the world, do not take it that I am just concerned with Brazil, this garbage is everywhere but here it is more as a cult and more as a way of life that is mass adopted and expressing the result of not having the capacity in any sense of developing a good sense that is not supposed to be learned in school or through education, I met people from jail, from isolated villages, from the hell of the rural areas that were analphabets and they always knew what is good sense and a limit of being just small but dign fish, not sharks, because you all think you are sharks, better than other, I repeat myself but I am wondering what does give you a blink to racionalize that you may be better than other in any sort of cryteria – skin, social class, rural-urban, etc etc, you are all and all the same, the same same same, just some fortunate noble souls are rising up from such an abomination! Maybe from 200 mil people, just 10 million to be nice in the real way(except most of the old nice persons from teh country-side that know what is all about to be human without reflecting it to your goods or to what others may think on how may you become generally accepted). I am indignated to the bone and you have to know it, idignation is resistance, it is more noble and gentle than whatsoever you make yourself as following cheap values; while I am idignated I am far from people like you and point 12 of yours – I am expressing my feelings and my so called frustration that may be better called repulsion and desgust; how you would feel if other shar comes for you??!? You think about ypurself being a bad ass predator being more cheeky and slimy than others constructing your path with power relations?
    7. Tell tou your present or future kid to become accustomed with such a putrid way of life – most of us we are adults here, we don-t need lessons on how to be a chameleonic carcass! Many of us met in many ways many cultures and people from all over without wanting to become something that what we are not; being a person has no boundaries in terms of geographical, cultural, racial, religious, sexual or whatever you like to cathegorize the world. I can not get accustomed to lying, you low creature, I am not lying nobody and I am not doing nothing bad to no one; I can get used with guns being pointed to my face, I can get used with many , but I can not become part of your miserable way of solving things, corruption is everywhere and I am not a symbol of human perfection, neither a model or nothing, I am only and only a person that has the right to differenciate, to make his own choices and to not reproduce further the exact thing that you regurgitated here; these are not even tips, not even advices, give yourself a look in the mirror and ask yourself what is so special about you and why you have chosen the easy way and what you do good, cause not doing nothing bad does not nececsarerly mean that you are a good presence!
    8. So you are a black woman giving advices on how to make your way in the society (whatsoever one) so as a repressed, marginalised and discriminated person you give us the wise words of becoming some sort of shadows of the burgueses that may open doors but never to welcome you, for me there is no such thing as colors of skin, we are all the human specie; but here you are cathegorised by even the most insignificant detail to become labeled and accepted so you will beg at the door of the burgueses to have benefits but which are those qualities and criteryas of sellection regarding on how I should choose my friends from the upper clas, with what are they better or with what they deserve more than a flanelinha who is a better conversation and presence than an arrogant-ignorant with maizinha e painho not being able to teach them not even the most basic facts about how to treat other persons? You all want to become rich, you are all complexed and limited in the worst way possible so you would trash yourself just for some fake acceptance and for some desilusional appartenence to something which does not belong to you! Also you pointed ot that you have many gringo friends ~~ Whooo !! You are the cool type, you are sorounded by the elite as I can see in your head, you think that you are more educated, more entitled for a better and special attention and of course, your dominion on English makes you be a very special one, so you sorround yourself with people that may open many doors to you but where would you like to arrive my dear one, what is missing? What does make you think that someone else must get in the middle of the most rotten people just to cover your back in case of something bad?!?!? I can not befriend people from the periferia, from the interior, just to expect some smiles and a nice chat and a good hand in case I am asking for a cup of water???All is in a shake of hand, in a hug, in a look, thing that you probably never experienced in the right way embracing the burguesada as such! Better dign than to lick the hands of others only looking for benefits and easier processes. This covers points 9 and 10 as well.
    11. How can I be pacient when I am the first in line and just to buy a pack of cigs and 2 beers I have to wait like 30 minutes??? How can I have patience with people faking all over? How can I have patience to think or to hope that it may get in any way better around me? I preffer to limit my patience only for the moment when I will not be surrounded by monsters at any corner and I would be surrounded by few nice hard-working people somewhere in the c**try side far, far away from specimens like you!/
    13. Tell this to Pavlov or to my cat.
    14. This lifestyle is not for human beings. But when moving it would be hard to forget or to ignore the hopeless misery that sucombed so much and so many and please, please, do me a favor and do not respond in any sense cause it would only provoke a hole in my intestines so I am fine without ulcerus or any intestinal breakdowns.
  • #265614

    Steven
    Participant

    What he talkin about Willis?

  • #265617

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    Obvious it is someone who thinks that 3 months is enough to learn a language and a culture.

  • #265618

    vcbkol
    Member

    Read better before coming with a reply just to criticize. gringovacilao2014-04-12 16:30:21

  • #265619

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=maarten]Obvious it is someone who thinks that 3 months is enough to learn a language and a culture.
    [/QUOTE]

    Hi Maarten. Haven’t heard from you in awhile. I thought you had disappeared.
  • #265620

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    There are really not many subjects here that are of interest to me nowadays, as I have no intention to go back to my “home” country I try not to be arrogant to think I know everything better and I do just “as the Romans do while in Rome”.

  • #265621

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    [QUOTE=gringovacilao]Yes, for a prothozoar is sufficient to label as such, I am capable enough to learn and to speak any Latin language in 3 months, as it was the case to master a more than decent Portuguese including jargon and slang and whatever and I am not suppposed to know at a Phd level an entire culture, more than it concerns me. [/quote]
    The word “prothozoar” is not recognized by me or google, therefore, the first sentence could not be parsed. I also point out, that normally Portuguese is supposed to belong to the ROMAN group of languages, but we leave that detail aside. It is true that persons who are native latin/roman speaker (f ex Spanish. Italian., French etc) will learn a language from the same group with some ease, as opposed to native speaker from f ex the German group. I seem to notice, that you are not native English, is that correct?

    [quote] I speak more languages than a Brazilian may identify. SO after 4 years may I say it is enough to be desgusted to the maximum?
    Did I miss some cultural aspects hidden to the human eye?

    [/QUOTE]
    I have no idea if that is a cultural aspect, and from where. I see no reason to be dIsgusted because you think you speak more languages. My wife speaks 6, so what?

  • #265622

    vcbkol
    Member

    And? Did I just receive a bad grade or some pertinent argument? None I suppose; I was not trying to show off with nothing, I only gave you some sort of details to understand better what and why I-m talking about after all you could get or stick to the facts and impressions I presented. You came like – yeah, you don-t know the Brazilian culture after 3 months(while just visiting my inlaws before even thinking of moving here..) – first of all, this was my period while I learned and started to speak Portuguese fluently and very good. As for the cultural aspects and Brazilian culture in general, from porn up to Academical issues I-ve been upgradet some good months before I first stepped into this country and I was not pretending to be a wise ass; only that some people may suprise you more than expected with generalities at least, let-s say.

    And without anything that I may expect, critics, insults, arguments, different points of view, etc, you could only limitate yourself to pick on the “3 months “issue, even after I said at least 2 times that I am finding myself here for 4 years. What-s the point to criticize or just to be like a fly in a soup if you don-t want to express something palpable? Those are my thoughts and views and whatsoever I am responsible and conscient about them so I don-t need English lessons even if I am not native, I don-t need reviews of my way to express my ideas and feelings and observations, I am not preparing a disertasion, neither a book. I gave to that woman another view on some gringos that are more fast into learning their language than others and not all the gringos are not the same. My desgust goes beyond about the languages, but you may find whatever connections or interpretations just to pick on me cause you were not liking whatever I wrote.
    Any other critics are welcomed; just mind that is very cheap to pick on somebody while you’re not equipped enough not even with 1% connections regarding the content of the post. Protozoan is in English, excuse my French – these guys are some of the most primitive organisms, you can improve your Google skills and question me more serious things but I kind of said enough. What was your point again? Forget about it, does not matter, I made my point to that woman, get your beef with her or cry together watching Friends and being cool about being a good person around. Chora me liga.

    gringovacilao2014-04-12 18:17:15

  • #265623

    jaenicoll
    Member

    My web browser has spell check. I guess some people’s either doesn’t or they don’t bother to use it.

  • #265624

    jaenicoll
    Member

    My strategy for living in Brazil is the following: First go live in some hellhole like Rio or the NorthEast until you can’t take it anymore. Then move to the South. Things will then seem remarkably civilized and easy. So far, any problem I have experienced here has been laughable compared to the crap that goes on up North. nesne22014-04-12 17:48:03

  • #265625

    Anonymous

    @gringovacilao: Just as I told Esprit…CHILD PLEASE!LOLI can understand that it is difficult for some people to bear the truth about Brazil. We WANT it to be different. We want it to be run by nice, honest, hardworking people who respect one another. We wish that the majority of the people living in it could be like that as well. BUT IT AIN’T!!

    My advice is for gringoes from developed nations. I am not sure where you are from, so it may seem ridiculous to you. However, for foreigners from places like USA, Canada, the developed parts of Europe, Australia, etc, these are the harsh realities we must face when we come here.
    Brazil is a beautiful country in many ways. It also has a deep and dark underbelly that, if you are not prepared to contend with it, will eat you up and spit you out! You are correct when you say that “living here is all about living without expectations”!
    I also think that it very important to appear “foolish and ignorant” when you are in the company of foolish and ignorant people. If they think you are one of them, they help you out here.
    This is not about forgetting who you are. It is about appearing as similar as possible to the majority of Brazilian people that surround you so that you can move ahead and make a living. Lying, cheating, being corrupt, and being fake are all apart of living here!
    If you are angry about something, then you must do something about intelligently (rather than complaining about the government and how crappy it is 24/7, as you throuw your own trash on the ground, refuse to personally go to a public school to volunteer, or refuse to take it upon yourself to make ANY changes in YOUR PERSONAL daily activities).
    I am telling gringoes that it is not our job to “fix” Brazil. It is the job of Brazilian people to fix everything they think is wrong with it. Gringoes, on the other hand, must understand the true nature of the people (which I do not consider “good” or “bad” – rather – “different”). People from North America cannot live here comfortably if we expect people to: be on time for things, do what they say they are going to do, not throw trash on the ground, not look for ways to take advantage of us at every turn, take responsibility for their own behavior, etc.
    Gringoes cannot hold “idealised” expectations of Brazil and its people because the place and the people simply are not “there” yet, but they are GETTING there! In the meantime, we do not need to be sitting ducks or feel bad because the morality of Brazil does not match our own.
    To answer your assumption, I do not feel ENTITLED to better things, but I have decided that I want the BEST life here. For me to have that, I cannot behave as though I am in America. The people here respect American values only in theory. If I show up on time, I would be wasting many hours sitting alone. If I got offended every time someone lied in my face, I would have no friends. If I did not use jeitinho Brazileiro, nothing would be accomplished. If I expect people to be honest and upfront with me, they will bend me over a table, f*ck me in the a*s, steal all my money, and invite me to dinner the next day LOL
    At this point, these “bad” people are not “monsters”. They are just people who grew up in Brazil! And as I said before, I do not feel it is my duty to fix the “hopeless misery” that exist here (or anywhere else in the world), as this is not my calling in life. I want to be settled and make money while living in Brazil Smilethe ONLY way for me acheive that is to be brutally honest with myself about the nature of Brazilian people and move in their society as THEY do.
  • #265626

    Anonymous

    @nesne: LOL!LOLI have heard of this strategy as well! Sometimes I forget the south even exists because you so rarely hear ABOUT it or FROM it!

  • #265628

    vcbkol
    Member

    Thank you for responding me even though I was really happy to get some bad words, a person that loves his country, even if it may be the worst in the world would rip the heart out of anyone being hardcore on picking on it.

    The sad thing for me as well is that there are no possible arguments to shut the mouth of anybody because is a living hell here and I always think if the violence(the real danger to loose your life or someone very dear and loved) would be less of a cryteria if from the entire sum of people it would be a segment or something like a percent of 2 true real honest persons at each 10 but not even this OR I could stand and support the fakeness if it would not be so violent, vice-cersa in any case so.
    And I was never thinking not even for a second that the athmosphere or the people are any different in companies or putrid work environments all around the wrld..they are even the same cheap annoying filthy typology!!!!
    I consider also being a big country the concurrence is harsh for everything but the deshumanization is f up; the fakeness is at a level that I feel to eat myself. All you say is very general and I know that you are not a bad soul but do you really think that I would ever trust somebody that gives tips only on how to be making your way around?!?!? I ain-t coming from no ig ass country, also my country is not governed by fire-arms at ease or by super drug trafficking, there is no cocaine there, no guns. POINT. People in the last decades especially are as well conducted by most of the indications that you gave above, but this does not transform my place into a majority of humans that are just making their existence easier and in the most commonly accepted negative aspect – everybody wants to succeed, but please bear in mind again that I ain-t no person that had everything already done for its life, and also that I was not cheating nobody or faking myself around or eating from the dumpsters or nothing like this, this is also what many do not understand, it is not only the US as a point of let-s say good refference and the 3rd world countries as crap holes of Satan hymself, there are many places where politness in the minimum, alienation is balanced and the degree of assholism is not regarded as the best way of life, many people have honor, respect, diginty, decency!
    It is all about not doing bad things nowhere, all what you exposed in your post would be the NO LIST that I would teach my kids to never follow such a conduct!!!
    I am surrounded by a very small number of Brazilians here; these people are an exception at a Global level – otherwise I would never get married and especially not being eager and crazy or stupid enough to move to Brazil and to be here for the last 4 years!!!!!
    As for the rest, I get my dose of human relations through unespected little and warm dialogues with nice old people(not burgueses), with workers, with kids when I work with them, or simply even with the maluqueiros that never threat me more than the collares brancos that do not even know or care about what is all about walking in the street..even the vira lata doggies behave better and they are more civilised waiting for the green light and using the faixa do pedestre..so better said my main problem is the burguesada who is lacking any sense in any sense and I hate them because they are desgusting and unhuman and asquerosos while their intelect does not go further than a parasite’s.
    SO I sort of isolated myself and better with no friends and with no cheap fake relations; I don-t give a favelado for 1000 burguesinhos or playboys!!!! I already putted of my chest in a post everything and you read so pleae be kind and understand that some people may eat dirt and drink from the rain rather than be humiliated by your own self wanting to be something that you are not. There is also an alternative! Does not cost nothing to be honest but is only a filter.

    gringovacilao2014-04-13 08:48:18

  • #265629

    Anonymous

    @ gringovacilao – To be honest, people seem to think of Brazil as the most violent and indecent place on Earth! However, I’d say it’s pretty light compared to places like Lybia, Egypt, China, Mexico, or South Central Los Angeles – you name it!

    Brazil is only a living hell for those who resist its true nature! Unfortunately, gringoes keep wanting it to be something other than ehat it is, and Brazilians seem to want “the government” to magically change it overnight, without the help of its citizens doing their part on a daily basis. I ALWAYS laugh internally whenever I hear someone talking about what the government should do, but refuse to do those things personally!
    Also, if your child grows up here, you will not need to teach him/her these things! He or she will learn them simply by growing up here! If she cannot contend with it, she will be one of the millions still trying to escape to the “first world” so that she can live in a house without a fence, and have the trash picked up every day!
    * On a sidenote – when I watch videos of Brazilians living in developed nations, they do not discuss
    ideological topics that much! Surprisingly, they drive around with a video camera commenting on
    things like empty streets that are clean and traffic lights LOLThey seem more concerned with
    the aesthetic appeal and classist implications of living in “the first world” over gaining a new
    ideology and bringing it back to Brazil. Luckily, however, this has begun to happen naturally as
    more of the young people travel the world, live in other places for a while, come back home, and
    continue to behave as they did in the “first world”.
    Even when we look at the Black population, we NEVER here about the millions of Black people who simply walk around living normal lives! People like me – educated, successful, well-travelled Black people – are not interesting to read about. So in the news you will see the weight of racism on the back of every black person everywhere. But the reality is that there are millions of us who learned how to play the game wearing our Black skin proudly, and not being persecuted for it! The exact same formula is aplicable to any “other” living in any place on the planet, when he is surrounded by people who are not like him! He can still be who he is, but he must appear to be like the others that surround him.
    I have found that isolation in Brazil is the worst thing a person could possibly do here. This place thrives on networks and connections – more than any place I have ever been. Connections here are like gold and money in the bank! People who isolate because of ideologies that do not match the reality here, do not do very well spiritually, emotionally, mentally, or physically. Those who become less rigid are able to fly!

    bamabrasileira2014-04-12 19:21:15

  • #265630

    vcbkol
    Member

    I WILL NEVER HAVE MY KIDS ON THIS LAND! NEVER! As for the rest, better with my cat and just with the love in our house than going on seeing fakeness all over! Wish you good.

  • #265632

    Anonymous

    Hey bama, just catching up on the thread and wanted to thank you for what you posted, a lot to think about. Definitely liked your last two posts, I’m going to ponder them and sort some crap out for myself that I have no doubt will help.
    I’ve been drinking wine here and laughing in panic with spouse, we just did the comparisons of crime and cost of living with Seattle. He sent the links to his friends and they immediately were thrilled to tell him that Fortaleza is now 2nd most dangerous city in Brazil, 7th in the world. Is this true? Not that it matters, we will still be going there unless he gets a firm offer somewhere else (the South of course).
    I never really allowed myself the paranoia of the middle class dullards I was forced to live with, but how do you live with security issues? I figure I’ll just wear minimal clothing and never carry anything I’m not willing to part with, this worked in Rio.
    On the plus side, Google Earth shows some rather appealing green-ish neighborhoods that I never got to see there, plus some of the more colorful working class neighborhoods I also never got to see, so I think there is plenty to explore in the city that I might find quite enjoyable.

  • #265634

    Anonymous

    @forofinho – Thamks for the shoutoutLOLYeah, I just think you (and by “you” I mean “we”) have to study the place.

    The “Fortaleza is the x Most Dangerous City in Brazil” debate is one I have been having since I got here. It is a complex discussion that has a lot to do with a) what constitutes “danger” (as in MY idea of “danger” is “something that can kill me”. But THEIR definition of danger is “anything from pickpocketing to homicide”) and b) lazy statistical analysis. Here is my take on this issue (presented as a list, which you know I LOVE):
    1. Fortaleza is a typical big city and is not particularly more dangerous to the average person than
    other typical big cities, if you are not involved in illegal activities.
    2. I define danger as being anything that carries with it a high likelihood of me being killed or physically harmed by
    participating in it. I do NOT define danger as being pickpocketed or having a gun or knife pulled
    on me in a robbery (because here, the robbers usually do not kill people for money or an iPhone).
    These are traumatizing events, but I do not consider them “dangerous” because there is a low
    probability that I will be harmed or killed in the event of an armed robbery. If I try to resist the
    robbers and keep my money or iPhone, only THEN does the event become “dangerous” for me.
    3. I, perhaps because I am Black, or “different”, do not stand out as a target here. Thus, I have
    never been the victim of crime other than being pickpocketed on a bus when I was a newbie.
    Perhaps criminals don’t approach me because I would call a lot of attention to them.
    4. The majority of the homicides (what I call “dangerous activity) takes place in 20 of the roughly
    120 neighborhoods in Fortaleza. Most of these homicides are directly related to drug/ gang
    activity, “crimes of passion” between dumbasses, unpaid debts, etc. If you are not impoverished, it is not difficult to simply avoid these neighborhoods.
    5. Robbers have a “type” of person that they like to rob. I have observed that dudes from the “hood” are rarely petty crime victims because they just look like they could beat someone’s ass! “Hood” dwellers also dress differently than higher class people, so potential victims are easy to spot. As well, people from high society here are weak as f*ck and tend to be clueless about what is happening around them at any given time. Most of them are afraid of their own shadow and are manifestly unprepared for life (especially the challenging aspects), because they have everything handed to them. Thus, they are quit easy to bully.
    6. People who are physically seen around a neighborhood frequently and invest small bit of time in talking to other people in the neighborhood are “protected” by the neighborhood. Rich areas like Mereiles and Aldeota don’t have this “hood” protection because everyone lives in a car and inside a gated community. They are never seen on the streets and are easy prey.
    7. Somewhere in your mind, instead of living in fear of being robbed, there must be some form of acceptance that this is a possibility, and one must walk ALWAYS being prepared to give the robber what he wants. When you are not particularly attached to your crap, and you don’t carry a lot of
    money on you anyway, you feel oddly liberated from the constant fear of what MIGHT happen. If I had a car, I would have a good insurance policy and ALWAYS be emotionally prepared to lose it or have it vandalized – thus, releasing myself from the fear of it.
    8. The truly dangerous crime (where people die) is oddly specific. You do not really see “rampages”, drive-by shootings, or anything that might harm anyone other than the person specifically meant to be harmed.
    9. The criminals here are still “nice” compared to gangbangers and crazy spoiled school rampagers in the USA, or Mexican drug cartels that skin people alive if they step out of line. Here, MOST of them do not WANT to hurt or mame the person. They just want the money or the piece of electronics.
    10. I, unlike most of the Brazilians that I know, do not have an expectation that the world is completely safe ANYWHERE (I always laugh when they talk about how “safe” places like London areLOL).
    11. Brazilians tend to be “copycats” rather than original thinkers, so it is fairly easy to discern patterns of behavior, and neighborhoods and times of day, etc., where it is not safe to go. But they also never seem to learn based upon logical thinking (its a real handicap to even some of the smart people I know here). For example, in bairro Fatima, there was a bus stop that was ALWAYS being robbed at a particular hour on a particular day, but the bus stops before and after it were rarely robbed. I could NEVER figure out why people kept going to that bus stop!
    12. Brazilian people are EXTREMELY emotional and empathic, so they are always taking on other people’s stories as their own. They also seem to generalize A LOT, so that 1 shooting that happened 6 months ago stays fresh in everyone’s mind day in and day out.
    All of that is to say that, I do not find Fortaleza to be an exceptionally dangerous place. Rather, it is a place where there is a high possibility that someone will rob you, sometimes at gun point or knife point, but that will leave you unharmed in the end. Also, when people recognize you “in da streets”, they tend to leave you alone.
    I rather like Fortaleza, because I follow my own advice and stay out of trouble! I think you guys would have a great time here!

    bamabrasileira2014-04-12 22:12:39

  • #265636

    Anonymous

    Another excellent list, just read it to the spouse, made him laugh and eased his mind (I think). He is looking forward to meeting you!
    I could have written the same list about how I approached the issue myself in Rio, but probably not nearly so well lol;) I knew I’d be robbed eventually, having to often walk between Leblon and Copacabana at late hours, so I just always had some cash in my pocket. When I was held up (by both gun and knife at different times), I chatted with the guys afterwards and they complimented me on my portuguese. I was of course tense as soon as realized I couldn’t out walk them and that I was the target, but then I relaxed and just let it happen. The only bad thing that happened was once I couldn’t get the button of my shirt pocket opened in the dark and the guy got impatient and ripped it as he grabbed for the cash. I told him it was my favorite shirt (still only a $5 used one from home) and he apologized lol. Wouldn’t happen here in my neighborhood in Seattle, I’d be bleeding and in the emergency room.
    What I was uncertain about, having been gone these last years, was if the killing/maiming had increased during these otherwise normal robberies, but it sounds like it hasn’t. Good news!
    A question while I think of it: Is biking around still something the ‘popular’ classes do, or are bike muggings common now, the way spouse’s friends claim? I got around on a cheapy local mountain bike every day during my time in Fortaleza, never felt like I would be mugged as long as I didn’t stay still anywhere for too long. And I’d brought along my U-lock from home so didn’t worry about it once locked up (usually inside a building anyway). I hate giving up the freedom of the bike, the sweaty slow bus rides weren’t my favorite lol. I do love my current bike insanely and would hate to lose it, so if the bike muggings are on the upswing, I may leave it home.

  • #265637

    Anonymous

    @ fofinho – Yeah this is the ONLY place where I have ever heard of nice muggers who give you some change from the money they stole from you so you can catch the bus, or have a conversation with you after they rob you! SERIOUSLY??!! And I hear these stories all the time! The only time that I hear of things going badly is when the victim does not cooperate.

    And yes you still see people cycling around. I am not sure when you left, but they now hove bike lanes on Rua Bezerra de Menezes, Washington Soares, and a portion of Humberto Monte (near UFC-PICI). I would not cycle around this crazy city, but I do see a lot of people on bikes! If its a nice bike that you have, I definitely wouldn’t leave it outside for more than 5 minutes! When are you guys going to come to Fortaleza?
  • #265638

    myrna
    Member

    I am not poor by any means (compared to Brazilians) but I am not rich enough to lose my iphone and just go ‘oh well, cost of living in the city! at least that wasn’t “dangerous”!’
    If you are getting pickpocketed or mugged then your city is dangerous because at any time your life could be adversely effected, to the tune of a few weeks work wasted, (in monetary terms) not to mention recovering contacts, reprogramming, ect.

  • #265639

    Anonymous

    @ Levo – You are describing inconvenience – not danger.

  • #265640

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    The “Fortaleza is the x Most Dangerous City in Brazil” debate is one I have been having since I got here. It is a complex discussion that has a lot to do with a) what constitutes “danger” (as in MY idea of “danger” is “something that can kill me”. But THEIR definition of danger is “anything from pickpocketing to homicide”) and b) lazy statistical analysis. [/quote]
    You are wrong here. The figures as presented some time ago were based on number of murders per 100.000 inhabitants. On that list Fortaleza was number 7 of the most violent cities of THE WORLD.
    see: http://diariodonordeste.globo.com/noticia.asp?codigo=373923
  • #265644

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]Yeah this is the ONLY place where I have ever heard of nice muggers who give you some change from the money they stole from you so you can catch the bus, or have a conversation with you after they rob you! SERIOUSLY??!! And I hear these stories all the time![/QUOTE]
    Fact: This actually happened to me once. I even managed to take charge of the conversation, incredibly as it sounds.

  • #265645

    Anonymous

    @maarten – As I explained before, the majority of the homicides in Fortaleza are specifically related to criminal activity and crimes of passion, and occur in about 20 of the 120 neighborhoods in Fortaleza. The homicide rate in these neighborhoods are high, but this does not represent a relatively dangerous city. There is the odd murder outside of these neighborhoods, but Fortaleza is HARDLY Syria or the dangerous parts of Mexico. The statistics must be analyzed to create a more accurate picture of the crime in this city. Outside of these neighborhoods, the majority of the crime is petty crime that does not involve physical harm to the victim. And unfortunately, the people here are not fighters and do not know how to stand up to bullying, so they are sitting ducks wherever they go.bamabrasileira2014-04-13 16:05:33

  • #265646

    Anonymous

    @picolino – Yeah, I hear about scenatios like yours too many times to dismiss it as specific to one person! I come from a place where a gang banger could shoot up a club and kill 50 people just to get the 1 person he was looking for, where a road rager can shoot you in the head if you cut him off in traffic on the wrong day, where a crazy kid can bring a gun into a school or movie theater and kill a bunch of folks “just cuz”, where the robber will shoot you first and ask questions later, and where – if a girl steps out of line with me – I get to punch her in the face (that place being the USA), so my perception of the danger here is not as high as other people!

  • #265654

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    @bamabrasilieira:
    I was not the one that did the research, and as far as I can see you did neither. There is NO indication of WHY the murders are done, nor WHERE. It is YOU who makes assumptions about it, to negate the problem.
    The fact remains: Fortaleza is 7th. Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo are not even in the top 50. Explain that.

  • #265655

    Anonymous
  • #265658

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    Ok, have it your way. The problem does not exist because you say so.

  • #265659

    Anonymous

    @maartens: I did not say that there was “no” problem. Rather, that the statistics are a bit skewed when you look at the information more deeply (which I have done, because I live in Fortaleza and like to be well-infomed about what is truly happening in the city that I live in). I would also suggest that you not jump to conclusions because ” a site on the internet said so”!LOL

  • #265661

    jaenicoll
    Member

    Bama, Im sure you are right that murders are generally concentrated in certain areas, at the same time, it is pretty scary that robbers really don’t have much fear of punishment. At most they will go to jail for a few years if they kill you. I guess the kind of thrill killings that have happened in SP recently haven’t arrived in Forteleza, still, I don’t think I would recommend my mother to go there. This is coming from someone whose family lives in Mexico more than half the year, and drives down there when they go. The truth is Brazil is dangerous as F_ck even by the standards of the Americas.

  • #265662

    Anonymous

    After my first mugging, the guy walked me to the bus stop and gave me change for the bus. I was calm but clearly shaken and he could tell I didn’t quite know where to go and would have gotten lost. This experience made my subsequent muggings less scary. I simply could not have avoided them, even being as careful as I quickly learned to be, so I was always grateful at how relatively well I was treated. After the initial show of bluster and toughness that of course is required lol, plus I’m sure part of the fun.
    If I had to actually live in Rocinha (or the much worse favelas I came to know briefly) I probably would be violent on ‘the job’, when I was out robbing to earn a living. I was so offended by the constant contempt shown the non-rich at school, the shops, the bus, the beach, the parks, all the public spaces and events I attended, that I came to hate the spoiled middle class people I was mostly forced to interact with quite a bit. I’m not sure how those so disdained restrain themselves, having to endure such treatment all their lives. If they killed the rich more often instead of mostly each other, that would make more sense to me.

  • #265664

    Anonymous

    @ nesne:” murders are generally concentrated in certain areas…” yes that is my point. Thank you for agreeing.

  • #265666

    Anonymous

    @fofinho: yeah most people don’t talk about the huge-elephant-in-the-room sociologicl issue that pushes these uneducated, societal shutouts to do what they do. Here, I even see a lot of people complaining about having to pay the “flanelinhas” to watch their cars (not knowing that in MOST major cities in the world, they would have to deposit that amount into a parking meter or parking garage). They are so fearful of going outside and so put off by the poor that they want nothing to do with them. They don’t even like the governmental welfare programs(which is miniscul in comparison to other similar programs in the world) because they see it as a kind of “steal from the rich to give to the poor” kind of deal.

    It isn’t right for people to steal and what not, but I just think the problem could be a LOT worse than what it actually is. I have several friends who have been robbed in the same fashion as you. They were shaken as well, but are not afraid to walk the streets (all gringoes, I might add). They are just prepared with 5 or 10 bucks to give at all times (and some even carry a decoy phone). Most do not understand that this is the type of crime that is happening to the majority of the folks who do not live in the bad neighborhoods. And even for the ones who live in the bad neighborhoods, those who are not involved in the illegal activity are rarely the victims – not unless someone wants to rattle someone else by attacking a friend or family member.
    And I still maintain that, if you are highly recognizable in the areas where you go, and you make eye contact with people and speak to them, you will be less victimized because they will “know” you somehow. It goes against all of our teachings about making eye contact and talking to strangers LOL! In the USA or other parts of the world, this behavior can hurt you. But in Brazil, it can help!
  • #265668

    Anonymous

    Would itbe fair to suggest that the advice and self-styled wisdom that is beingproffered by the op should be taken with a pinch of salt? That pinch of salt beingthe experiences of a woman overtly conscious of the negative overtones of her ethnicityand hailing from the USA who, when working her social scene, preens and boastsabout pretending to be other than she is, basking in the admiration of thefriends of the person showing her off and on whose dime she wines and dines. Nocrimes being committed here but remember to qualify with caution the type ofperson giving advice on life strategies.

  • #265669

    Anonymous

    @Esprit – Darling, are you suggesting that I am being too “uppity” now that I am in Brazil? I can assure you that I was just as uppity in the States, and that is where I perfected the craft of walking in many different worlds to my own advantage SmileI didn’t know it would serve me so well in Brazil until I came here with my husband. It’s ok…lots of people don’t like it when we win at the game of life. You are not the first and I am sure you will not be the last Wink

  • #265680

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@Esprit – Darling, are you suggesting that I am being too “uppity” now that I am in Brazil? [/QUOTE]

    Actually I don’t think that he’s suggesting that you are uppity. I think that he’s implying “downity”.
  • #265683

    Anonymous

    Esprit, it works both ways- surely you don’t wear your pope’s robes when you’re out in the boteco watching the game with the locals, but if you got invited to somewhere swanky you’d know what fork to use, right? Adaptation is a talent, not a crime, and an extremely useful talent to have.

    bama, i like your list, and like your attitude. if you’re saying that you’re winning at the game, i tip my hat– good for you.
  • #265684

    Andrewfroboy
    Participant

    My problem with all of this is the same people who love to complain about politicians drive in the freaking bus lane and do everything to take advantage of others. Brazilians (and anyone else who lives here) can continue living this way but it will continue to make this country a hard place to live. It is a classic prisoner’s dilemma and the real losers are Brasilians, the system is set up to reward you for screwing people over and doing what is in your best interest which is in the long term bad interests of the country.

  • #265689

    Anonymous

    @steven – well, that is kinda what “uppity” is when it is applied to Black people.LOLIn any case, lots of people hate the player instead of the game.

  • #265690

    Anonymous

    @andrew – I think that things are changing, albeit slowly. However, if one does not open his eyes to this very real “dog -eat-dog” scenario, he is a sitting duck here. If he loosens up and sees it as a kind of game he must play in order to thrive here (rather than merely survive), it becomes a kind of adventure where he is not constantly offended by the place and its rules. I would say that it is very dangerous here to get trapped in one’s imagination about how the things “should be”, rather than learning how they actually are, and living according to their rules.

  • #265691

    Anonymous

    @3casas: thanks for the shoutout! Glad to see that there are people here who are able and willing to be honest with themselves about the realities of Brazil!

  • #265693

    Anonymous

    we have lots of realistic and fair people here, i think. sometimes the tide pushes one way or another, or the grumps may get the upper hand, but i think for the most part we have a good group of long-term people here who are honest about living in Brazil (and elsewhere). We all get frustrated sometimes and it may be the only place we have to blow off safely. Even Esprit may have just been sipping out of a bottle that had a touch too much jurubeba last night, since I’m pretty sure I’ve heard him wax poetic too, and under that old urubu costume i think there might be one of those little burrowing owls.

  • #265700

    myrna
    Member

    [QUOTE=andrewfroboy]My problem with all of this is the same people who love to complain about politicians drive in the freaking bus lane and do everything to take advantage of others. [/QUOTE]
    Im sure in their heads the bus lane is some socialist construct put there by politicians to screw the rich over to help the poor and buy votes.
    I cant lie, after having sat in the regular lane for 10 extra minutes to go 100meters due to the legions of people going up the bus/turn/whatever lane and merging at the last minute I too am tempted to cut the lane, simply because everyone else is doing it and f**king me over.
    The other thing is the Brazilians let them merge! In the US if someone tries that bullsh*t everyone sandwiches their cars together and collectively gives the guy the finger. In Brazil they cut the lane everyone lets them merge! What the f**k!
    Levo2014-04-14 14:16:12

  • #265707

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=3casas]Esprit, it works both ways- surely you don’t wear your pope’s robes when you’re out in the boteco watching the game with the locals, but if you got invited to somewhere swanky you’d know what fork to use, right? Adaptation is a talent, not a crime, and an extremely useful talent to have.

    bama, i like your list, and like your attitude. if you’re saying that you’re winning at the game, i tip my hat– good for you.

    [/QUOTE]

    You surprise me. Despite my having already saidthat no crime is being committed here, you have condensed everything that isavailable to read on this thread down to the simplistic conclusion that thetopic being discussed is advice about dressing appropriately to suit an occasionor being familiar with cutlery protocol?

    The simple facts are that the op is advocating somethingfar more sinister: that a person must develop the metamorphic skills to adapt one’spersonality with the fake attributes of self-aggrandisement such that they canpretend to be or represent something or someone that they are not in the effortto ingratiate themselves with the, shall we say, people from the big house or,in some instances, the street gutter folk when purpose suits.

    Deception is not a talent, it is a fraud andeven if winning, winning what and at what cost? I am reminded of the recentmeltdown by a TV star who, when in a drug induced drug stupor, exclaimed to theworld that he was winning, whatever that is supposed to mean. Success, ifachieved through deception, cannot be regarded as a win; it is an obnoxious liethat will always, in the end and in a short space of time, be discoveredbecause as the old adage has it, you can’t fool all of the people all of thetime. Besides, the presumptuous can always talk the talk but can very rarely havethe wherewithal to walk the walk; which is why they’re obliged to globe-trot inconstant search of pastures new to leach on the gullible; or should I say, intheir terms, win.

    I take the time to say all of this in theinterests of the impressionable who, if such advice remains unchallenged, mayfeel that such advice is condoned by the majority of the members of this forum.

    I can understand and sympathise with the opgiven her background and life experiences, however this is not unique to any oneof the many individual groups that have, and continue to be, prejudiced against;black persons, homosexuals and Jews. Similar prejudices also apply to themajority of those who are of mixed race and, finally at the lower end of this hierarchicalpecking order must be included the flotsam and jetsam faction of the Caucasianmultitudes conjoined with the religious zealots.

    Above and beyond all of this sit the rightcrowd where there is no crowding; a perch from which the handle that spins theworld is churned. Unfortunately, such is the nature of humanity today that lurksbeneath the current fashionable cloak of, yes we can, political correctness.What I describe is of course a caricature of a hypocritical society and asociety that appears destined to remain forever locked in its own, dog eat dog,mire where the sound of silence from the majority is quite deafening. Merlot;don’t you just love it? Wink

  • #265710

    Anonymous

    I truly think we are looking at the same elephant and taking away remarkably different conclusions about its anatomy, but will leave you looking at your hypothetical society where the sheep always go to heaven and the goats always go to hell, and heaven forbid a poor kid gets a need-based scholarship to upset the delicate balance of the universe. Kampai.

  • #265711

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=3casas]I truly think we are looking at the same elephant and taking away remarkably different conclusions about its anatomy, but will leave you looking at your hypothetical society where the sheep always go to heaven and the goats always go to hell, and heaven forbid a poor kid gets a need-based scholarship to upset the delicate balance of the universe. Kampai.[/QUOTE]

    LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLWell, since I don’t believe in the nonsense of aheaven or hell, we could make a start by not making any more of thoseunnecessary poor kids; they don’t deserve the misery.

  • #265713

    graham
    Participant

    Esprit – Although the entertainment value is priceless, pity that muchvaluable advice you are giving is perhaps lost in pontificating prose on earsthat cannot relate. Deception certainly can be a talent, although a fraud.Adaptation is a talent too; it is a skill worth developing, even in small ways.The world does not waltz to our wands.

    As to: “â‚Ǩ¬¶not making anymore of those unnecessary poor kids; they don’t deserve the misery.” Do youreally know that they all want to be lifted from plutonian shores? Do they evenneed to understand all this urbane banter, want compassion or care about the “us”implication of our views?

    Your perch is devineand your glass heady. Cheers

  • #265714

    vcbkol
    Member

    Adapting for profit through social situations and perpetuating some of the most prolific but parasitic symbiosis does not make a virtue of an incapacitated organism to fit to a survival but a stationary regress of undeveloped souls. gringovacilao2014-04-14 19:11:12

  • #265715

    Anonymous

    @ Esprit: Clearly, you are not winningLOL

  • #265716

    vcbkol
    Member

    Adapting for profit through social situations and perpetuating some of the most prolific but parasitic symbiosis does not make a virtue of an incapacitated organism to fit to a survival but a stationary regress of undeveloped souls. Got it Grads?!

  • #265717

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Esprit]Well, since I don’t believe in the nonsense of aheaven or hell, we could make a start by not making any more of thoseunnecessary poor kids; they don’t deserve the misery.>
    [/QUOTE]

    Dear Esprit, I do believe in both heaven and hell and I also believe fully that the poor kids fit the profile of the “poor in spirit” and that they will receive the kingdom of heaven. In fact, you are correct. They do not deserve the misery of their lives. But I also believe that our outlooks on their sad existences are limited and do not encompass the eternal joy that they will receive if they (and we) accept the reality that this life is not the end – there is an eternity for those who turn their lives to God.
    I currently live in the Midwest U.S. = the heartland = and yesterday we had a horrific killing in our midst. A subhuman KKK monster took it upon himself to purge the world of some “Jews” and, in fact, wound up killing two Methodists and one Catholic in the parking lots of “Jewish” facilities. As he was led away in the police car, shouting “Heil Hitler” did he realize that little did it matter the religion of his 14 year old victim? But rather the fact that God has a place reserved for this innocent. In the thousands of years that are to come does it matter our pitiful viewpoints on this world? Or rather the eternal truths that we cannot even minimally hope to comprehend and are the portion of the one true God?
  • #265718

    Anonymous

    Again, we have a moralistic ideal (however arbitrary and conditioned by society) vs the Brazilian way of life. I would not call changing your mask to fit situations that benefit you to be dark and sinister, as most people do this every time they go to work or church. This is natural behavior being brought into consciousness. The energy that moves Brazilian society is a bit cut-throat until you develop your foundation and network. After that, much of life is smooth sailing.

    You also must behave according to what you want to achieve. I like business and I like financial and material success. To have these things in Brazilian society, again, you must adopt the behaviours of those who are successful. There is nothing bad about it. It is simply how they play the game (and to be honest, it is how most successful people play it – regardless of what they might be telling you).
    All the ills of the society have very little to do with people going to parties, pretending to like people that they care nothing for, or behaving in ways that people who have what you want can understand. They must be spoken to in language that they can understand, and they must be shown how you can be of value to them.
    This is how the world of successful peole living in a capitalist society works. If you hate money, power, notoriety, or wealth, then you do not need to practice any of these things. But if you have the heart of a capitalist, like I do, you had better study and internlaize the behavior and attitudes of those who control your society. You do not need to become the devil to be successful. Again, you just need to learn to play the game!
  • #265719

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Grads]

    …As to: “â‚Ǩ¬¶not making anymore of those unnecessary poor kids; they don’t deserve the misery.” Do youreally know that they all want to be lifted from plutonian shores? Do they evenneed to understand all this urbane banter, want compassion or care about the “us”implication of our views?…

    [/QUOTE]

    I neither know nor care if I am understood bythe global hoards of Les Misì©rables; the Geldof legacy of unintended consequences and possiblythe most renewable resource on the planet. We can make babies faster thansmartphones yet lack the ability to make smart babies. By that I mean suchbabies that grow up to make more of their kind in tandem with and in directproportion to the availability of food and water. I believe the Catholic Churchcalls them, souls; Jesus fodder to know love and serve God while contributing generouslyto the support of their talented and adaptive pastors.

  • #265720

    vcbkol
    Member

    If there’s so much concurence in your world, bama – then why do you think your being is such a necessity for a general requirement or either a must?

  • #265721

    Anonymous

    Steven, I won’t attempt to discuss the Godthing or any of the associated variety of religious beliefs other than to say,simply, you’re wrong. I find it fascinating how any rational person couldpossible believe in what can only be described as a psychopathic sadist whowatches in amusement as the creatures he created in His image suffer the tormentsand pandemonium of free will, disease and famine on a destructive planet ofearthquakes, tsunamis and petulance. Hey, this is one truly man made mysteriousbastard. God/Religion are most successful products ever to be conceived: suck itup in this life while waiting for the next but meanwhile drop a little coin inthe plate. If it comforts you in times of pain, fear or bereavement, you goright ahead with that wishful thinking; meanwhile go sell crazy somewhere else.

  • #265722

    Anonymous

    bambarasileira. You can change your tone in subsequent posts yet the fact remainsthat you have said and I quote, “Leave you idealism at the door and becomecorrupt, inefficient, and poorly educated when it serves you to do so! Remember,your ideas of right vs wrong are really only arbitrarily based on you socialconditioning.” Such advice in indefensible and should be retracted immediately.

  • #265723

    Anonymous

    @ gringo – i didn’t understand the question. Can you ask with more detail?bamabrasileira2014-04-14 20:51:06

  • #265724

    Anonymous

    @Espirit – I stand by all those statements. I am not sure where you are getting the idea that I am changing my tone. Also, I think that you “should” spend more time in the real world and finding ways to apply your moral code to a world that includes more than you and your 3 friends who agree with you.

  • #265725

    vcbkol
    Member

    Gringo gringo but GringoVacilão please – then is no more fun – so: being so generally accepted strategies in order to succeed even for the wiser ones(in your acception) even for the less fortunate on unpuzzling the ways of becoming someone in this harsh existence(in your view and struggle) then being so many disputing the succesful and the easiest but let-s say studyed “strategy ” why then your existence must be of interest in the entire pile of replaceable aspiring well succeedeed ambulant skeletors? You are of no major importance as a human and you simply value some bogus references that are fictive and repulsive. You are on the last place on your own marathon, got it?! gringovacilao2014-04-14 21:22:14

  • #265726

    jaenicoll
    Member

    I see this whole thing kind of like when the dudes had to eat their dead friend’s butt because they were trapped in the Andes without food in that movie Alive………..

  • #265727

    Anonymous

    @ gringovacilao – I agree, I am not that important in the world, and yet, you keep reading my thread, and seem deeply invested in what I have to say. I wonder why that is…

  • #265728

    vcbkol
    Member

    Worse! This madam would eat you alive just to be the first at the cue. In survival situations she would chew her 1st degree whatever ones before opening the cans.

  • #265729

    vcbkol
    Member

    That-s so simple. You are not the centre of the storm bonequinha. The gringos even if they come from very distant cultures and history and attitudes they may normally have some honour and some dignity, or decency besides historical “in your face realities” so I will invest some more seconds to write to you that the entire world is not that corrupt as you make it and I really enjoy others and myself trashing your limited existence. Would you say that you captivated someone of good will with a positive something? I already have said from my first post – you wanted some attention – you got it – but first evaluate yourself.

    And I only and only do my part: smacking selfish ignorants like you with every ocassion I get (mostly face to face) so during a year even if I know I have to deal with the scourge of the Earth – I am teaching you some other points the hardcore way so you may think better the next time when you throw yourself towards the entire mass of people without ever expecting that someone may smack you so hard in the chin(with words, gestures, attitudes, expressions, etc) that you will cry for 5 months and whenever you-ll see a similar typology you-ll be again smacked at a cue, in the street, at work, in a conversation, in a forum’s post, so I am not a hunter of miserables but if you cross my path and you are not a byped equipped with good sense I will probably give you what you deserve while you-re out of any arguments and politeness and decency. Are you eager just for any sort of attention though?
    Note that even your bandidos have a system of values, also that the working popozudas they also have a conduite but you seem to have no word, no trust, no good presence. I would smell you from 5 blocks away before you would even open your mouth so you are not important at all outside your self-projections.

    gringovacilao2014-04-14 21:57:04

  • #265730

    Anonymous

    @gringovacilao – I’m starting to get the feeling that we aren’t friends. And you are right…I am learning TONS from you right now. I’m even crying a little – just like you said I would LOL

  • #265731

    vcbkol
    Member

    Chora me liga. Have a nice life.

  • #265735

    scotty447
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    You surprise me. Despite my having already said that no crime is being committed here, you have condensed everything that is available to read on this thread down to the simplistic conclusion that the topic being discussed is advice about dressing appropriately to suit an occasion or being familiar with cutlery protocol?

    The simple facts are that the op is advocating something far more sinister: that a person must develop the metamorphic skills to adapt one’s personality with the fake attributes of self-aggrandisement such that they can pretend to be or represent something or someone that they are not in the effort to ingratiate themselves with the, shall we say, people from the big house or, in some instances, the street gutter folk when purpose suits.

    Deception is not a talent, it is a fraud and even if winning, winning what and at what cost?I am reminded of the recent meltdown by a TV star who, when in a drug induced drug stupor, exclaimed to the world that he was winning, whatever that is supposed to mean. Success, if achieved through deception, cannot be regarded as a win;it is an obnoxious lie that will always, in the end and in a short space of time, be discovered because as the old adage has it, you can’t fool all of the people all of the time. Besides, the presumptuous can always talk the talk but can very rarely have the wherewithal to walk the walk; which is why they’re obliged to globe-trot in constant search of pastures new to leach on the gullible; or should I say, in their terms, win.

    [/QUOTE]

    now see this old ‘story’

    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    Why would it not be true? The hush money binds me to secrecy. I wisely rejected a lump sum settlement and instead opted for a reviewable index linked semi-annual instalment plan. We have to remember that the FIAT monetary system is fatally flawed and subject to rampant inflation.

    You see, in their haste to defrock me and deconsecrate my hands, in doing so they also released me from my vows of chastity [a sore point] and also those of poverty and, most importantly, the confidentially of the confessional; all bets were off. I have the ï¬ø¬Ωgoodsï¬ø¬Ω on a lot of kinky Cardinals along with high profile Italian business types and politicians who considered it chic to be seen as practicing Catholics at St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican City. My little Sony cassette recorder was a nice fit under my cassock and the microphone was pinned under my tippet. I hasten to add that the purpose of recording did not have a nefarious intent; rather for research into the categorisation of sin, be they of thought, word or deed and whether venial or mortal; a scale of gravity, if you will, commensurate with establishing suitable penance.

    When the defrocking rite is completed, one is taken into a shabby little vestibule when oneï¬ø¬Ωs priestly garb is shredded and thrown to the ground. ï¬ø¬ΩCivilianï¬ø¬Ω clothes are offered along with a little money after which one is escorted through a door leading outside the city to the back streets of Rome; one is treated as a miscarriage, an abortion from the womb of mother church and therefore friendless and abandoned. Long story short, some days later and on the wrong side of broke I retrieved a coin from the waters and tossed it back into the Trevi Fountain and made a wish for salvation. Some hours later I noticed a neon sign displaying the word, Sony. God works in mysterious ways and gives us inspiration. Stern%20Smile

    [/QUOTE]

    Espirit ….you know very well who you are….now go and reflect.

  • #265737

    Anonymous

    @ganeshrkara:PartyClap

  • #265738

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=ganeshrkara]

    Espirit ….you know very well who you are….now go and reflect.

    [/QUOTE]

    I see that you are a fan of my works; I should be flattered despiteknowing that you’re desperately mining for skeletons in my posting closet,however it’s plain that the character flaws associated with your type tend toexpose you as rather unsavoury. Sorry to disappoint but you’ve happened upon anold fictional story that was created for the amusement of the hapless and dearfriend and forum member, Squiddie.

  • #265740

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit] I find it fascinating how any rational person couldpossible believe in what can only be described as a psychopathic sadist whowatches in amusement as the creatures he created in His image suffer the tormentsand pandemonium of free will, disease and famine on a destructive planet ofearthquakes, tsunamis and petulance. Hey, this is one truly man made mysteriousbastard. God/Religion are most successful products ever to be conceived: suck itup in this life while waiting for the next but meanwhile drop a little coin inthe plate. If it comforts you in times of pain, fear or bereavement, you goright ahead with that wishful thinking; meanwhile go sell crazy somewhere else. >[/QUOTE]

    That’s the rub. These people though at times are intelligent (rarely) are never rational people.
  • #265741

    Anonymous

    that story should be a sticky, that was a classic (but it should include the part with the nuns too)

  • #265742

    kevin owen
    Participant

    I thought the part with the nuns was true.
    It’s helped me get off to sleep on several occasions.

  • #265743

    Andrewfroboy
    Participant

    That is not how I would describe God. I would say he created the world and humans to live in perfect harmony with him, each other and nature. Man decides to do what they want and chaos reigns (i.e. Brasil…). God wants his creation to have choice and so he allows them to screw things up, sends prophets to try to warn them, ultimately sends his son. He doesn’t want the bad stuff to happen, but he allows humans to screw up his world because he values their freedom of choice. People can badmouth Christians till the cows come home and much is deserved, but if you look at institutions of higher learning, hospitals and other major institutions as well as some of the most important civil rights and political movements much of them were inspired by or resulted through people of faith who cling to the idea that this world was created for something better. Is it rational? It is if you take the leap of faith to believe in God, I can grant that isn’t necessarily rational, but there is also no scientific proof to the lack of purpose to the universe. I don’t mean to enter into a long debate, but I don’t think we can blame God for people being selfish screw-ups who seek to maximize their own personal gain at the expense of society. Certainly can blame his followers at times. andrewfroboy2014-04-15 09:28:46

  • #265746

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=kevbo]I thought the part with the nuns was true.
    It’s helped me get off to sleep on several occasions.[/QUOTE]

    Kevbo, when you haveeliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be thetruth.Ah, yes. In the quietude and the twilight zone just before slumber,I too can recall those young nuns: their porcelain smiles and the jet blackrosary beads contrasting with the almost translucent alabaster breasts linkedon the silver chain that supported the crucifix commemorating one of God’s earlysnuff gigs. It was explosive sin and all too urgent such that it should be re-capturedin the slow motion of imagination. Sleep well. Soft kitty, warm kitty, littleball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.

  • #265747

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=andrewfroboy]

    …we can blame God for people being selfish screw-ups who seek to maximize their own personal gain at the expense of society. Certainly can blame his followers at times. [/QUOTE]

    This correct. It has been the followers of whatever version of thevarious Gods that has caused mayhem throughout history and continues to reign overglobal havoc to this present minute. We, of course, can’t blame God because hedoesn’t exist.

  • #265766

    Anonymous

    guy 1: DUDE! God TOTALLY EXISTS!

    guy 2: DUDE! NO HE DOESN’T CUZ I SAID SO!
    guy 3: DUDE! GOD IS TOTALLY A WOMAN!
    guy 4: DUDE! PASS THE BONG!
  • #265771

    jaenicoll
    Member

    guy 5: DUDE! WHERE DID YOU GET A BONG IN BRAZIL?

  • #265778

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=nesne2]guy 5: DUDE! WHERE DID YOU GET A BONG IN BRAZIL?[/QUOTE]

    I know a place off of Paulista in SP. I bought a few gadgets there. They sell online and are legit. I’ll see if I have their card and send you the sight. Wink
  • #266046

    Vira-lata
    Member

    I really enjoyed the discussion.
    Not to say that I’d take any side. Being fair or in any way “genuine” with your principles is not necessarily that destructive to your social future. At the same time, trying to be “as corrupt as they are” is not that destructive to your principles as long as you are centered on who you contact with, his language and his social skills. I personally will imitate this “corruptedness” if I see that people around need it for some reason, but nevertheless I’ll show that it’s not what I normally do.

    I mean that sometimes the best way “not to spoil your karma” is not obvious.
  • #266049

    Anonymous

    @berau – Yes, a lot of folks here are naive and think that they can be “fine, upstanding citizens” AND be successful here in Brazil…BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHALOLLOLLOL… and by “successful”, I mean a) not living off of a retirement fund or any wealth that you had before coming here b) earning at least R$ 3000 monthly if you live in the North/Northeast or at least R$ 5000 monthly in all other places (which is realistically what is needed for most of us to have what we consider to be “middle class” lifestyles WITHOUT having to travel back to our home countries to smuggle stuff into the country c) connecting with key people (i.e. the upper class/ rich folks wherever you live) so that you will ALWAYS have opportunities to move forward in life, rather than remaining stagnant and learning to live with less!

    Unfortunately, if you do not know the difference between true kindness vs “Brazilian cordiality”, accept that everyone here is a pathological liar and corrupt out the ass (even when THEY don’t THINK they are) , or learn that the honesty and kindness practiced in a developed nation opens the door for you to be taken advantage of (and that will eventually lead you to hate the place and the people), you will spend your days and nights suffering unnecesarily here.
    You also have to know the difference between the upper class and the lower classes. The lower classes are often more genuine and can offer real friendship more readily because they have learned to depend on each other for things. The upper classes, however, are EXTREMLY self centered and seem to be completely unaware of the world around them or how they affect other people, nor do they care. Their world is plastic and changeable, so I step into it with pure joy. Most of them have learned to value absolutely nothing, so something that is EXTREMELY valuable to you – like an introduction to an important business contact, or an uncle working at the prefeitura who can speed up some paperwork for you – is like water off a ducks back for them. All ya gotta do is smile and go play with them every now and then!
  • #266052

    Vira-lata
    Member

    @Bamabrasileira = Well, I do not assume that everyone here in Brazil is to that extent “bad” just not to become a victim of my optimism. Though, I should say, my goals are maybe much more modest than yours. I am not all about technology of success. Life is too short to be so active, and a calm place with some moderate income would be enough for some.

    Speaking in terms you offer requires having a rather high standard of social behavior not only in one’s mind, but also in his own life-long experience. I have lived in Russia and Ukraine, so I had to deal with those standards, and for me, you know, Brazil and Ukraine are on the same stage, certainly under US (I guess!), and surely above Russia. Here in Brazil, I at least enjoy the outer side of people’s nature whatever “artificial” it probably is, while where I came from both sides are typically the same hell, with few exceptions.
    All I know is that one’s real life and his real particular case can have nothing to do with the typology of mindsets according to classes as well as with statistics – BTW, Fortaleza was a good example here.
    Many of us (me definitely) just meet not so many people in our lives, so that individual peculiarities of any person influence the whole picture much more than anything typical.
  • #266054

    Anonymous

    @berau – Yeah I can understand where you are coming from. And as strange as it may sound, I do not consider “lying, cheating, stealing…etc.” in the context of this culture to be “bad”. It meerly “is”, and I do not consider the behavior wrong, given the history of the place and the context. This is probably why I am not at spiritual or philosophical odds in behaving as they do :-D

    Also, I can get down with your viewpoint, given your life experience and current needs/desire. I am just a capitalist at heart and was excited to learn that so many people here were also capitalistic with a huge helping of oportunistic. It’s a competative and driven part of myself that I actually LIKE to express. I like to play chess, and living here is a bit like playing chess every day. Can we win? Only time will tell!
  • #266065

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@Berau – Yeah I can understand where you are coming from. And as strange as it may sound, I do not consider “lying, cheating, stealing…etc.” in the context of this culture to be “bad”. It meerly “is”, and I do not consider the behavior wrong, given the history of the place and the context. This is probably why I am not at spiritual or philosophical odds in behaving as they do :-D

    Also, I can get down with your viewpoint, given your life experience and current needs/desire. I am just a capitalist at heart and was excited to learn that so many people here were also capitalistic with a huge helping of oportunistic. It’s a competative and driven part of myself that I actually LIKE to express. I like to play chess, and living here is a bit like playing chess every day. Can we win? Only time will tell!

    [/QUOTE]

    This is perhaps the most debauched statement toappear during all the years of this forum. To not consider lying and cheating tobe both dishonourable and unprincipled reveals the writer’s unsavoury character;a character that goes on to say that the act of stealing is also not bad.

    All but the sociopath have an innate instinct;a sense of right and wrong; an instinct reinforced by the tablets of biblicaltimes to the present day. Stealing is an illegal act that is ingrained in everycivilised statute book. Without exception, such behaviour is abhorred amongeven the unenlightened cultures throughout the world.

    Ignorance can sometimes be described as someonewho doesn’t know that they don’t know, but here we have a higher animal lackingin any self-respect and reinforcing stereotypical behaviour while engaging in premeditateddebauchery in the interests of her shameless if not psychotic self-advancement.

  • #266068

    Anonymous

    @Esprit – unfortunately, higher reasoning is lost on one-dimensional people like yourself. Also, you probably have different goals than I, so your “but it’s WWWWRRRROOOOONNNNGGGG!!!” whining is starting to sound a bit rhetorical – much like that my Brazilian crew who complain about everything but take no personal responsability for anything (including throwing trash in the trashcan rather than on the ground).

    You cannot go to Mars speaking your Earthling language and expect them to understand what you are saying…not if you want to move freely amongst the Martians. You must learn their language and do as they do.
    (And just to be clear, since you are quite literal and one-dimensional in your thinking – quite like my 5 year old niece – I am not comparing Brazilians to Martians. I am using metaphor and hyperbole to illustrate a concept)
  • #266078

    Anonymous

    while the statement is a bit strong, it’s just semantics. are you stating that total purity is necessary?

    i challenge you to show me one person who hasn’t taken advantage of something here in brazil. pirate cable box, illegal parking, caixa preferencial, registering their employees with the wrong salary, FFS who was getting milk from the prefeitura for his kids? and taxes? not going to touch that one.

    i may not be knocking down old ladies in the street to steal their wallets, but thinking along these lines, the fact that i may hypothetically register my vehicle at my chacara instead of in the city to save 50% on the registration fees is also shameless if not psychotic?
  • #266079

    Finrudd
    Participant

    3casas – I think some of what you refer to is the difference between Tax Evasion and Tax Planning, one being illegal in countries like Switzerland, the other being positively encouraged. Big smile

  • #266085

    Vira-lata
    Member

    @Bamabrasileira,

    Oh, I just perceive the words with all the connotations an ordinary person may hear in them :) “Liar” instead of “one prone to deliberately misinform”, etc.
    I see your point about being a capitalist at heart. Not a great contrast with what we (de facto refugees from not-enough-capitalistic world) want to see. There is also a number of people with extra drive for playing, not only competition. And it is quite constructive in the long run. I just notice that you are maybe a bit demonstrative in that, using normal, but emotionally colored words. Usually, moral relativism softens its lexic ;)
    BTW, oh, is the NE still so much cheaper? I didn’t notice that before :)
    @3casas,
    I think that what is discussed here is mostly of moral, not legal nature (?)
  • #266087

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=3casas]while the statement is a bit strong, it’s just semantics. are you stating that total purity is necessary?

    i challenge you to show me one person who hasn’t taken advantage of something here in brazil. pirate cable box, illegal parking, caixa preferencial, registering their employees with the wrong salary, FFS who was getting milk from the prefeitura for his kids? and taxes? not going to touch that one.

    i may not be knocking down old ladies in the street to steal their wallets, but thinking along these lines, the fact that i may hypothetically register my vehicle at my chacara instead of in the city to save 50% on the registration fees is also shameless if not psychotic?

    [/QUOTE]

    You remind me of the parable about a certain Palestinianhippy who, when happening upon a Saturday morning stoning, said unto thegathering, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”

    Certainly we are a multidimensional highlycomplex flawed and weak species and none except the new-born Catholic is innocent.Adding to which, it is written that the perfect man falls [sins] seven timesdaily. Yet after careful parenting, when a child reaches the age of reason it shouldhave little cause for confusion with regard to semantics when asked to giveexamples of lying, cheating and stealing; the most abominable of Man’s failings.I would respectfully suggest that neither should you have difficulty in thisregard nor should you attempt to mitigate these deplorable activities by saying,in effect, that everybody does it which of course implies that you, too, are summarilyguilty. Should I lock up my valuables if I were to invite you into my home?

    However I notice that you cite venialtransgressions that might be regarded by some as Robin Hood-like examples, suchas parking tickets or wrongfully claiming milk from local government. In thisregard you are wrong to illicit support for this seedy poster when, in the fullknowledge and context of previous posts; posts where it is abundantly clear toall but the hard of understanding that we are not discussing such trivial issuesbut rather the difference between grass and meat eaters.

    You have obviously leda relatively sheltered life and therefore haven’t had much experience with thechancers or con artists of this world; they thrive among us and in time yourolfactory sense will give ample warning. So now take your unworldly sweet naìØveself off to the naughty corner and reflect. No cake for supper. LOL

  • #266091

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]@Esprit – unfortunately, higher reasoning is lost on one-dimensional people like yourself. Also, you probably have different goals than I, so your “but it’s WWWWRRRROOOOONNNNGGGG!!!” whining is starting to sound a bit rhetorical – much like that my Brazilian crew who complain about everything but take no personal responsability for anything (including throwing trash in the trashcan rather than on the ground).

    You cannot go to Mars speaking your Earthling language and expect them to understand what you are saying…not if you want to move freely amongst the Martians. You must learn their language and do as they do.
    (And just to be clear, since you are quite literal and one-dimensional in your thinking – quite like my 5 year old niece – I am not comparing Brazilians to Martians. I am using metaphor and hyperbole to illustrate a concept)

    [/QUOTE]

    I have yet to see evidence of any higherreasoning in your posts; posts that are increasingly becoming incoherent and,might I add, somewhat emotional. Interesting though is the analogy wherein youcast yourself in the role of a Martian and having a Martian language and,certainly, alien values. I assume that the crew you mention manage your Starship.By the way, your crew is actually right to throw trash in the trashcan whilehere on Earth rather than on the ground when on Mars where some sort ofbiodegradable metamorphic process turns it into breakfast cereal.

  • #266095

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit]you are wrong to illicit support for this seedy poster when, in the fullknowledge and context of previous posts; posts where it is abundantly clear toall but the hard of understanding that we are not discussing such trivial issuesbut rather the difference between grass and meat eaters.
    [/QUOTE]awww, come on, this has been the most fun this board has seen since the great Russian Alien Porn Thing of 2009!

  • #266097

    Anonymous

    @ Esprit – You cannot see the higher reasoning because, as I have pointed out, it is a skill that you lack, as you are a one-dimensional thinker. Your comments about the Martians vs Earthlings has also shown me that you didn’t understand what I wrote – though I left you a nice disclaimer that I was using hyperbole and metaphor to create and clarify a point. It’s ok, though. Your opinion is valid – its just useless in Brazil (or at least where I live) LOLbamabrasileira2014-04-24 19:57:35

  • #266098

    Anonymous

    @berau -AMEN!ClapAnd yes! compared to the other major cities I hear about (Rio and SP) it’s substanially cheaper to live in places like Fortaleza, Recife, or Natal. You don’t need to go broke or live in a favela to have a decent living space. Also, there is a lot less talent here, as this area is deep in development, so they need people who can do…well, just about EVERYTHING, so it is a very vibrant and juicy time for people who like to play “the game” AND for those who don’t!

    I have even developed a small strategy for making purchases so you don’t go broke. I have a few anti-establishment Brazilian friends here who have turned me on to:
    1) Buying electronics from Ebay and Amazon…even if your stuff gets taxed at customs, it is STILL cheaper than you can get it here.
    2) watch for the “big sale days” at major stores. About 4 -5 times a year, all the major stores (Lojas Americanas, Rabello, etc) slash prices by a third or by half, so you can have a nice spending spree during those times.
    3) there are LOTS of decent and affordable restaurants here.
    Basically, the average person here just does not have the spending power of those in Rio or SP. And I am still learning about the “South Region” that everyone says is “just like Europe”!
  • #266101

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=3casas] awww, come on, this has been the most fun this board has seen since the great Russian Alien Porn Thing of 2009![/QUOTE]

    They say that time heals all wounds. Does it?Does it really? A tarpaulin in tatters, two donkeys slaughtered and reputationsruined. Who would want to remember? Who could forget! You may remember that Anatoly was the local wrist-flapping movie director. “People, people.” He shrieked in his inimitable Russian accent.”Just a little liquid soap lubrication and some gentle probing.” Ooh the horrorâ‚Ǩ¬¶the horror.

    The idea for the movie was inspired by thatlarge meteorite that had crashed to earth the previous winter near Kislovodskin the Northern Caucasus. And it would have been just fine. Sure, not AcademyAward stuff but a nice raunchy thirty-minute flick for the club circuits beforebeing confined to the, â‚ǨÀúunder the shelf’ selection of plain cover DVDs.

    Apart from a couple of local playful buxomslappers who worked for cigarettes and vodka, Alexei had been put incharge of casting. He needed to get a couple of guys to act as handlers for thestar of the movie, a big guy to play the alien from planet Kolob. Alexei foundhis star, Tsubasa, aJapanese dissident and former sumo wrestler who had set up a mushroom farm withhis gay friend Jeremy, an unlikely match to be sure and who was an ex-real estatefrom Tunbridge Wells in England. They had planned to marry but that’s all overnow and Jeremy has returned home to live with his ageing mother and her pet budgerigar,tweets.

    The animal protection agency filed suit forrecourse to appeal which overturned the first judgement and the lengthy legalfees bankrupted the farm. The judge held that the donkeys had been despoiled bythe events and, in accordance with police reports, were now a local nuisancebecause they were constantly seeking similar amorous advances from any obese membersof the general public who at least vaguely resembled the intrepid Tsubasa; now a broken and lonely man who drinks tohide his shame. The donkeys, both brothers, were euthanized witha 50.Cal borrowed from the local civil defence corps; they were given aten-second start in the interests of fairness. Ironically the execution ensuredthat they had taken it up the rear end for the final time.

  • #266102

    Vira-lata
    Member

    @bamabrasileira – I’ve been to Fortaleza in 2006 and Natal + Currais Novos (well into sertão do RN) in 2010-2011, and now I compare prices there with those in Floripa, and come to the conclusion that from this point of view Brazil is divided primarily into SP and anything else, then RJ and anything else, etc. In 2013 I saw Parnamirim (Natal’s satellite) paradoxically highly ranked here http://www.custodevida.com.br/brasil/ – but now the chart is no longer that counter-intuitive :)
    In Floripa, BTW, one can rent a house for R$1000 monthly.

    I really like South but I am too critical to the weather, so we hope to “come back” one day to NE! I am always glad to hear something in favor of the Northeast, as long as literally everyone I meet here speaks with kinda horror about Fortaleza and even Natal (I guess, 2011 was the last year of its “good times”). Floripa is certainly much more socially “plain” than Fortaleza, it almost lacks favelas, and what I especially like about this town is the presence of constructive local community spirit, when people try to make life better in their own neighborhood (this just doesn’t exist in Russia). But I was always ready for another Brazil. In Fortaleza I walked a lot, talked to fishermen (everdrunk) and various “marginal” BeiraMar-dwellers, and that was my picture of Brazil. I also met, if you know, David Goldman in an internet cafe (he hardly remembers me), and listened to his stories full of frustrations about the country. But I wasn’t scared.
    I should say that some gringoes here, actually maybe every second, have what could be named “optimalist syndrome” making them always unsatisfied. It’s especially typical for Americans, because they have grown in the best place of the world (no joke), and naturally expect that in other places everything will be at least not too strange. They are typically disappointed.
    I remember one moment with my friend’s wife… She is American and he is Russian, and several years ago we came in Russia to our third friend’s apt., had kinda party there, and later I learned that she had complained that we (me and mine) had never paid for the food they had prepared without us for all. It was quite a challenge for my friend to explain to her that among Russians such an idea just never comes to one’s mind :)
    So sometimes it’s really an effect of “backward” or “less developed” state of the society, and sometimes it’s just “le Big Mac”, little peculiarities. Some gringoes are very annoyed by those “les Big Maques”.
    Or course, jeitinho brasileiro is another kind of peculiarities. Again, if a person has come from a country where the state is not the Evil in itself, jeitinho is something bad or shameful for him. For me, it’s just the response of common sense to the powerful state. In Brazil the state is not Evil like in Russia, but it is still too big to be effective. People just look for a way to survive. So, I can understand you point, I’d only be a bit more careful with moral vs legal aspect ;)
    Thank you for good words about Nordeste!
  • #266107

    Anonymous

    @berau – Yeah, I can see what you are saying about a lot of things. The South and Southeast Regions are an interesting topic for people up here because they associate the places with Europe, development, “correctness”, etc. It is said that SP alone generates about 35% of the Gross Domestic Product of Brazil, and that the whole south (which include the south and southeast) account for more that 70% of the GDP of the whole country. Many people think it is only because of the European settlements (forgetting that Europeans also settled in all the other parts of the country as well). I associate the development down there more with good weather for farming and a relatively young group of German settlers (cuz we all know that the Dutch, Italian, and Portuguese settlers have done nothing to move the country forward).

    I agree that there is something intriguing about the NE (which is probably why I am still here). There is every class and every color of the rainbow up here, all ramming into each other all day every day. There is also a kind of laziness about the place (which I attribute the the beans and heat) that both make it desirable and has kept it behind developmentally.
    And I think you are absolutely right about those from developed nations and their expectations. The groups most effected are the Americans, Europeans from highly functional nations, and Australians. Most of them are so rigid in their expectations that they are never able to fully adjust, and are constantly frustrated by…well…EVERYTHING LOLthey try to hang on to their foreign standards and ideals, and are always burned by them in the end.
    It’s interesting to see the perspective a a person from Russia! BTW – what do you think about the recent strife between Russia, Ukraine and Crimea? There is a fascinating story behind all of it!
  • #266124

    Vira-lata
    Member

    @bamabrasileira

    Yeah, Floripa is greatly different from Fortaleza in this respect: I believe 2 of 3 Florianopolitanos would look foreigners in Fortaleza :) Lots of German and Japanese surnames here. In Ceara or RN I have to get a good sun tan to look like a local, while in Floripa literally any phenotype is common.
    But what I like about NE is that very lazyness you’ve mentioned, for I am lazy too. Well, I can be rather industrious, so it’s not due to inability, it’s just mindset.
    Again, you know, every group has its own “dark side”. For instance, I never ever visit Russian forums of expats in Brazil, for their tone, which is generally hostile towards those willing to move here. If you happen to deal with Russians, you eventually notice that the more westernized / libertarian / “capitalistic” any if them is, the less he wants to deal with his compatriots ;)
    As for the RU/UA/Crimea strife, oh, I just hope that West has already realized that what it is dealing with now is the new Hitler. Unfortunately, NO less. The main and fatal mistake of westerners (and “capitalists” are especially prone to this sort of mistakes) is rationalisation of Russian rulers’ behavior, while it has nothing to do with commercial interest or any ratio. What they are trying to do is to turn the chess board upside down at the expence of anything, for they are sure that they’ll get what they really want, i. e. ability to rule the world. They have no idea of unbearable loss. Tomorrow they can forbid the internet in Russia, the next day I’ll stay here without money for Visa and MasterCard will be cut off, but it’ll be just the beginning. All my friends (I got many in both Russia and Ukraine) are shocked by how easily an overwhelming majority of Russians is manipulated through TV. They believe absolutely any fake. So that’s it…
  • #266179

    oweng
    Member

    Esprit,
    Your Dostoevsky voice is really tiring.
    Gandhi
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Esprit_-_Scarborough_TC.jpg

  • #267140

    Anonymous

    bamabrasileira,
    Let me add my two cents. After reading your fourteen points on strategies for living in Brazil, I will tell you my knee jerk reaction.
    You’re crazy.
    While I appreciate the fact that you are trying your best to live in Brazil and make the most of it, what youre asking people to do is almost impossible. I agree with some of your points, like learning Portuguese, but some other points, like lowering your expectations and standards, I do not agree with. I realize Brazil is not like other countries, not like the USA, and Fortaleza itself requires some “adapting” to, like anywhere else in the world, but I have read some of your other entries and you say you got “used to” the violence in Fortaleza. I’m sorry to say, but violence is NEVER something to get “used to”. When I lived in Curitiba, Parana, in southern Brazil, I did what I could to keep myself safe and out of harm’s way, but I never considered getting “used to” all the violence. Robbery, murder, assault, rape, abuse. If we lower ourselves to resigning to the fact that these things happen, then we cannot call ourselves human beings. We have descended into the realm of beasts. Never did I encounter “friendly” muggers. NEVER. Not in the USA, not in Brazil. Everyone from the poorest to the wealthiest criminal who has the nerve to inflict such trauma and damage to innocent people does not deserve to be called a human being. These are not ideals, as you are so willing to say Americans have. This is FACT. Do what you like, if you like living in Brazil, more power to you, Brazil does indeed have some great things to offer. But violence should never be thought of as “normal”. I guess lies are normal too, huh?

  • #267143

    Anonymous

    Bamabrasileira,
    The fact that you laugh at the notion of people being fine upstanding citizens and being successful in Brazil disgusts me. You have bought into the disgusting Brazilian malandro, esperto, jeitinho mentality that is exactly why Brazil doesn’t move forward. People think that they can create progress by copying other brands, by not registering their companies, by going off the radar, and in the process you have created an enormous informal economy, a black market of sorts. That’s one of the reasons Brazil can’t compete with the industrialized world. Too much informal economy. But of course, if you can take advantage of it for your own gain, then it’s okay, isn’t it? Society doesn’t exist, does it? You’re accountable to no one but yourself, right?
    There are more liars in Brazil than in other countries, true, but it’s not pathological. They know the difference between the truth and denial, hiding things, and fabricating stories. Don’t let them off the hook, bama. There are better ways to live, and Brazilians for the most part have an inkling that there is, yet they choose to perpetuate the dirty system in the hopes that they may win in the end. They only make it worse for themselves. That being said, there are MANY honest people in Brazil, who if they lie to one person, they tell the truth to another. There are Brazilians who don’t lie all the time. Some actually like to live with their own conscience.
    You step into the upper class’s world with pure joy??? After stating how filthy and dirty their ways are??? Hmm, that says something about you, and it’s nothing to be proud of. Brazil is not a communist country where you have to work around the whole system of laws just to buy a radio. But neither is it a well functioning capitalist/socialist mixed country like the Netherlands. How do you do what you do and still live with yourself? If I did even half of what you do, I couldn’t live with the knowledge of my own dirtiness without, idk, going to the confession box. I think it just goes to show that high intelligence does not equal high ethics. What’s worse is that you know what you do is wrong, but you feel no remorse or guilt. That is the classic behavior of a psychopath. In a well functioning system, you would be locked up for what you do. Better not use that in the USA, because you probably commit tax fraud in Brazil. In the USA, you’re locked up as a CRIMINAL for TAX FRAUD.

  • #267145

    Anonymous

    Bama,
    I would just like to add one more thing. If laws have any standing and any power at all in the world, then the unabashed capitalists like yourself would come crumbling down. And oftentimes, they do. Remember bernie madoff in the USA? He’s in a federal prison, currently. Also, a very “successful” politician in Sao Paulo is on the most wanted list of interpol. The Nazis were very successful in their own eyes, and in material terms. After 1945, and their defeat by the allies, the Nuremberg Trials found most of them guilty of horrendous war crimes. Many committed suicide. Why? Because they knew deep down inside that their actions, compared to more ethical people, wouldn’t stand the test of any laws or any courts set up by the allied west. The perpetrators of the genocide in the balkans in the 90s were recently tried in a court in Holland, in the Hague, and found guilty. However, they were materially successful in their own countries.
    You like doing illegal things, don’t you? You have found success in a country where the law has no power, where theoretically illegal things are practiced everyday, where the informal economy flourishes, and where people who would be criminals in other countries are the ones in authority in Brazil? Just know, Brazil comes near the bottom of many lists comparing countries on economic fairness. Brazil is NOOOO Denmark, that’s for sure.

  • #267161

    Anonymous

    @ Grantham – good LAWD! Haters be HATIN!

    Seriously though, my suggestions are for people who are ready for the realities of the place. Brazil is changing slowly, as more people become educated and travel to other places to see how they do things ….but it ain’t there yet! My suggestions are NOT for people living in “developed” country where there is a high level of trust, and where things run like clockwork. They are for people living in a place where people don’t really trust each other all that much (hence the select group that have been made into millionaires/billionaires because they own a cartorio, and the crucial nature of networking and knowing the right people).
    I am not talking about the way things “should” be (based on what we grew up learning in a society that works properly). I am talking about how things are. I acknowledge that it is a bitter pill for some people to swallow. However, I have travelled to MANY places in my life, and this is nothing new for people who live in underdeveloped countries (ever been to Poland? It’s even worse there, with regard to how things work, excluding the violence)
    I would suggest that Brazil is simply not for people like you. Denmark and Holland – nice, secure, safe, mundane places – are for people like you (and there is nothing wrong with that).
    As they say…if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen (and from the looks of it, you have done just that)LOL
    If you try to live in a place like Brazil the same way that you live in the states, they will eat you up and spit you out (as they have done to many of the people who have posted on here). I rather like the life Brazil offers me, as it fits my personality and does not give me the opportunity to get bored. I also do not perceive it as the war zone that others think it is. For me, it is a place with some bad areas, a black market that exists because it MUST, and a jeitinho that exists because it MUST. I do not feel at odds, as my behavior in places that do not have these things is quite different (because none of these things are needed in those places). When I lived in Ireland, I had to get used to talking about the weather all day every day. It got boring, so I left.
    My strategies are not for weak or idealistic people. They are for people who want to know how to move through personal resistance and have a good life here (without marrying someone rich, or just coming here to live out their retirement in obscurity).They are for people who will be here for a while and would like to know how to live well and how the place works. Obviously, “living well” is subjective and different for each person. However, the FABULOUS thing about the WORLD is that most of the people who post here can actually CHOOSE where they want to be! Brazil is not for people who think / live based only on the “black or white, right or wrong, up or down” paradigm. It is for people who can adapt and play the “game.” You must become comfortable with grey areas that you never have to deal with in places where all things are highly defined. You have to develop different parts of yourself so you are not a sitting duck everywhere you go. You have to know how the people think so that you are not always being taken advantage of (and yes, it IS a country FULL of pathological liars, cheaters, and grey-area dwellers! But it also has nice, hardworking people. I haven’t met any who were completely honest yet, but I’m ok with that)
    It is NOT for people who live on a soap box (cuz as soon as you step off it, someone is gonna be waiting behind you to steal it from you !)
  • #267162

    [QUOTE=Grantham]The Nazis were very successful in their own eyes, and in material terms. After 1945, and their defeat by the allies, the Nuremberg Trials found most of them guilty of horrendous war crimes. Many committed suicide.[/QUOTE]
    Although many were brought to the US, under ‘Operation Paperclip’, where they shared their scientific and technological advances and research, then eventually wielded influence on the highest levels of gov’t (i.e. PNAC – ‘The Project for a New American Century’).
    So in the US you now have the quite obvious formation of the Fourth Reich, and in Brasil the Marxist PT is running the show. Where to go?!? Click your ruby slippers three times Dorothy, and keep repeating this phrase: “There’s no place like homeâ‚Ǩ¬¶.”

  • #267165

    Anonymous

    I will be quite frank here, instead of beating around the bush. I’m gay, I like fashion, culture, and academics. I like intellectual discussion. I’m queer (saying this last word is like setting off a bomb in some places). I don’t appreciate people who disdain sophistication and taste. There are many things in Brazil I like that unfortunately, I couldn’t afford or access as much as I would have liked to. But also, I saw more of a future for myself in my home country, that’s why I left Brazil. I would live in Brazil, in a nicer downtown neighborhood, or on the beach, or both. But what I thrive on is honest validation and a group of people who more or less have something in common with me, without me having to go through the ritual of explaining my existence in Brazil, why I lived there and so forth. It gets real old real fast. That’s why I left though. I wasn’t brazilian, and could find no gringoes like me, so best go where you are treated better, right? I didn’t belong among the expat class in brazil, although I was an expat, so I left. I’m better off now. I have more autonomy over my own life.
    I am now enjoying things that I couldn’t have done in Brazil. The leftist, liberal, socialist, queer, feminist crowds are very interesting. From time to time I’m involved with what they do. I was there for Occupy Wall street. I cheer edward snowden on. I cheer as state by state wins gay marriage. I move in social circles that were inaccessible to me in Brazil, if they existed at all. Brazilian feminists and socialists are quite different from American ones. American socialists look more to Sweden than to Russia for inspiration. Feminism has much more of a foothold in America than in Brazil. I’m as happy as I can be, I guess. What’s more important, I control my own life here, I do what I myself want to do, for myself. I can open up and shut down as my heart desires. Nothing is blocking me. It’s not perfect though, this is a large country, and has more conservative christian evangelicals than I would like to encounter, but as long as we don’t see each other for too long it’s alright. Hopefully their lobby on washington d.c. dies out in a couple of years.

  • #267166

    Grantham,
    IIRC, you came ‘out’ on this forum at least a year ago, or more. Frankly, I don’t see what your sexual orientation has to do with anything pertaining to this forum about Brasil. But if YOU think it does, then I would say Brasil, at least the laws of Brasil,the Federal laws, offer you much more protection than the US.
    EDIT: You wrote… ” I move in social circles that were inaccessible to me in Brazil, if they existed at all.” Shouldn’t you edit that and change ‘Brazil’ for Curitiba?
    Gringo.Floripa2014-06-02 22:56:51

  • #267167

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa]
    EDIT: You wrote… ” I move in social circles that were inaccessible to me in Brazil, if they existed at all.” Shouldn’t you edit that and change ‘Brazil’ for Curitiba?
    [/QUOTE]

    Grantha
    amen.
    Come to BH. We’ve got plenty of feminism, folks championing equality, and openmindedness here
  • #267168

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Grantham]I will be quite frank here, instead of beating around the bush. I’m gay…blah, blah, blah [/QUOTE]

    This type of post reallypisses me off because it implies that one’s sexual proclivities and particularlywhat one does with one’s genitalia determines exclusive preferences to fashion,culture, academia, intellectual conversation, feminism, the leftist crowd,liberals, socialists, a soupìßon of anarchy, five gold rings and a partridge ina pear tree. The whole thing smacks of an inferiority complex disguised in pretentioustwaddle indicating to discomfort in one’s own identity, social class and financialwherewithal. So you’re queer, a common enough accident of nature enjoyed by themillions who generally get on with their lives without all the mincing, wristflapping and sympathy seeking. Being gay doesn’t entirely disqualify you from actinglike a man [hmm, that sounds a bit sexist].

  • #267170

    Fernandez
    Member

    @ Grantham:
    Don’t let the naysayers get you down. This is a free forum. What you might want to consider is additionally starting your own thread, perhaps sharing your perspectives on queer life in the two cultures, which is more welcoming, etc. While I personally won’t have anything to add on that, those insights would enrich the forum and surely help those here now or in the future who feel less at liberty to discuss this than you do. All the best.
    ferrar2014-06-03 06:35:55

  • #267177

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa]
    Grantham,
    IIRC, you came ‘out’ on this forum at least a year ago, or more.¬† Frankly, I don’t see what your sexual orientation has to do with anything pertaining to this forum about Brasil.¬† But if YOU think it does, then I would say Brasil, at least the laws of Brasil,the Federal laws, offer you much more protection than the US.
    EDIT:¬† You wrote… ” I move in social circles that were inaccessible to me in Brazil, if they existed at all.”¬† Shouldn’t you edit that and change ‘Brazil’ for Curitiba?
    [/QUOTE]
    Floripa, have you never been in any sort of closet? Isn’t it torture? While others live freely and openly, have you never had to hide something so crucial to your identity as something as natural as your sexual orientation? No one has ever needed to come out as straight. While I recognize that Brazil does actually have a thriving LGBT scene, a lot of Brazilian gays have mixed experiences when it comes to their straight families. If you’re lucky enough to come from a family that is live and let live, then you’re fine, family-wise. But a family with members in it who still live according to archaic notions of gender roles, well, then it can be hell.
    I never had much background experience with the laws in Brazilian, and I’ve read that in theory, they’re great. Marriage equality exists nationwide. But on the ground, in everyday life, we’re still treated as second class citizens by many people. Should we be counting our blessings that we aren’t stoned to death? There is still a premium put on heterosexual life and heterosexuals take basically almost everything for granted. To many people, we are threatening the fabric of social life, and the morality of society. LOL. Whatever. That’s where the patriarchy comes in. Many people here will think no, the patriarchy isn’t that bad anymore, it doesn’t exist anymore, women have rights, etc. etc. All you need is to put on some queer-tinted glasses and realize that the patriarchy is thick in the air with its toxic chemicals. It still is, despite everything. However, I will stop here, as this is going into queer theory, and I might have already lost people on that.

  • #267179

    Andrewfroboy
    Participant

    I’m with you Grantham, I am shocked at the commonness of gay jokes especially around soccer teams. Highly offensive.

  • #267180

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=andrewfroboy]I’m with you Grantham, I am shocked at the commonness of gay jokes especially around soccer teams. Highly offensive. [/QUOTE]

    My goodness but you areeasily and inexplicably shocked Andrew; where have you been all your life?

    Frankly I’m amazed at theprogress society has made in its apparent acceptance and tolerance ofhomosexuality in such a relatively short period of time. I say this in thecontext of living memory when such was a crime on the statute books punishablewith incarceration followed by a rejection by good Christian folk; some of whomwill still quote the bible and condemn to fire and brimstone those who travelthe low morality and despicable Hershey highway. Bum bandits are still being executedin the name of one God or another in various parts of the world.

    Relax; we’re making fineprogress so steady at the helm. Holy crap, the US has a black President,faggots are getting married and commies are no longer under the bed. We are allborn too soon! It’s a wonderful life! LOL

  • #267182

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit] [QUOTE=andrewfroboy]I’m with you Grantham, I am shocked at the commonness of gay jokes especially around soccer teams. ¬†Highly offensive. ¬†[/QUOTE]

    <p =”Msonormal” style=”mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom: .0001pt;line-height:150%”><span style=”font-size: 9pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;”>My goodness but you are
    easily and inexplicably shocked Andrew; where have you been all your life?<o:p></o:p></span><p =”Msonormal” style=”mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom: .0001pt;line-height:150%”><span style=”font-size: 9pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;”>Frankly I’m amazed at the
    progress society has made in its apparent acceptance and tolerance of
    homosexuality in such a relatively short period of time. I say this in the
    context of living memory when such was a crime on the statute books punishable
    with incarceration followed by a rejection by good Christian folk; some of whom
    will still quote the bible and condemn to fire and brimstone those who travel
    the low morality and despicable Hershey highway. Bum bandits are still being executed
    in the name of one God or another in various parts of the world.<o:p></o:p></span><p =”Msonormal” style=”mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom: .0001pt;line-height:150%”>
    <p =”Msonormal” style=”mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom: .0001pt;line-height:150%”><span style=”font-size: 9pt; line-height: 150%; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;”>Relax; we’re making fine
    progress so steady at the helm. Holy crap, the US has a black President,
    faggots are getting married and commies are no longer under the bed. We are all
    born too soon! It’s a wonderful life!¬†LOL<o:p></o:p></span>

    [/QUOTE]
    Esprit, Andrew should be very shocked, for he has good reason to be. He should be shocked and angered. Gay jokes imply that there is something inherently flawed, or wrong, or inferior, about being gay. But a mountain-load of scientific evidence suggests that sexual orientation along the hetero-homo-bisexual axis is inborn and natural. What can be controlled is the acceptance of all the sexual orientations, across the spectrum, and not pit heterosexuality against homosexuality. Homosexuality has always existed and will always exist.
    If mainstream society changes the discourse about what’s acceptable and what isn’t, as has been done in the Netherlands, being gay will no longer be stigmatized. I can crack a couple straight jokes right now.
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a piece of sh*t?
    A piece of sh*t doesn’t beat his wife.
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a vibrator?
    The vibrator lasts more than 5 minutes.
    How does a straight woman know she’s dreaming? She orgasms in the dream.
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a pig?
    You can kill and eat the pig.
    I don’t mind straight guys as long as they act gay in public.
    Is anyone laughing yet?

  • #267184

    Andrewfroboy
    Participant

    Just saying that kind of stuff doesn’t happen at least not as openly these days in the US. For a society where you can go to jail for saying stuff (which I think is crazy) it surprises me how many gay/racist jokes are accepted.

  • #267185

    Anonymous

    @grantham – I think Brazil is just now waking up to the idea of civil rights for ALL humans! You will see a similar attitude in their struggle with racism. I CONSTANTLY have people here trying to convince me that I am NOT a “negro” but a “morena” (because, apparently, refering to person as “brown/dark-skinned” is somehow better than acknowledging that they are, in fact, decended from Africans and look as thought they are descended from Africans).

    The “gay” thing is a constant topic of conversation between me and my private students as well. About a month ago, I told a group of lawyers that they could be sued in the USA for so openly describing people and things as “gay” or “f*ggot” as a form of insult. AND they were SHOCKED when I told them that they had gay men and lesbians working with them (as I have VERY strong “gaydar”- if that’s even a real thing)! They spent a good 2 weeks trying to figure out who could POSSIBLY be gay!
    However, I have noted that there is a HUGE difference between people who have travelled and those who have not. And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.
    There are a lot of people here who are more intellectually curious and sophisticated. But you cannot find them if you stay in the house. You MUST make networking a priority here (as I have said before) because people are so clique-ish. If you are a gringo (particularly if you have blond or red hair or blue or green as, as you would be VERY exotic to the people the farther north you go) you have a somewhat easy leg into pretty much any clique. But you would also really have to become more comfortable with paradox and lack of defined edges and boundaries, as most people here simply do not think that way!
    As a matter of fact, I think that many of them do not think at all, unless you bring something up. However, I have found that most of the fairly educated folks actually enjoy some intellectual provocation over a beer. Its just that many of them have never had the opportunity to think (as ridiculous as that sounds) because it was never required of them before!
  • #267186

    [QUOTE=Grantham] But on the ground, in everyday life, we’re still treated as second class citizens by many people.[/QUOTE]
    So while ‘off-topic’, continuing on this detour of Grantham’s sexuality (which I’m sure 99.99% of this forum could care less about), I’d like to suggest to you Grantham that you do some research on the history of the struggle for gay rights in the US, starting with the Stonewall riots. If you whine that you’re an oppressed minority in 2014, you insult those that endured far greater prejudices and hatred, who came before you. You say you feel like you’re treated like a 2nd class citizen because of your sexuality? Welcome to the human race kiddo. Human’kind’, more appropriately called Humancruel, is adept at putting one another down. Whites treat blacks as inferior, blacks treat hispanics as inferior; men (some men) treat women like dirt, etc. etc.
    There will always be haters, so get used to it. There will always be haters, so ignore them. There will always be haters, so your challenge (if you don’t want to be a hater too) is to treat them with kindness. They’ll hate you for that as well, but guess what? Who cares?!?
    Follow the beat of the drum YOU hear, no matter how measured or far away, and forget about those following the Pied Piper.
    Boa sorte rapaz!
    Gringo.Floripa2014-06-04 07:30:35

  • #267188

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa] [QUOTE=Grantham] But on the ground, in everyday life, we’re still treated as second class citizens by many people.[/QUOTE]
    So while ‘off-topic’, continuing on this detour of Grantham’s sexuality (which I’m sure 99.99% of this forum could care less about), I’d like to suggest to you Grantham that you do some research on the history of the struggle for gay rights in the US, starting with the Stonewall riots.¬† If you whine that you’re an oppressed minority in 2014, you insult those that endured fair greater prejudices and hatred, who came before you.¬† You say you feel like you’re treated like a 2nd class citizen because of your sexuality?¬† Welcome to he human race kiddo.¬† Human’kind’, more appropriately called Humancruel, is adept at putting one another down.¬† Whites treat blacks as inferior, blacks treat hispanics as inferior; men (some men) treat women like dirt, etc. etc.
    There will always be haters, so get used to it.¬† There will always be haters, so ignore them.¬† There will always be haters, so your challenge (if you don’t want to be a hater too) is to treat them with kindness.¬† They’ll hate you for that as well, but guess what?¬† Who cares?!?
    Follow the beat of the drum YOU hear, no matter how measured or far away, and forget about those following the Pied Piper.
    Boa sorte rapaz!
    [/QUOTE]
    I know about the stonewall riots. And I’m not insulting those that came before me. I would just like to be treated with dignity and respect. I don’t believe that society should be hierarchical, but painfully, I know that it is. Masculinity is glorified, more so than femininity. I know that humans can be very cruel, but if there are things that we proudly proclaim ourselves to be, fair, tolerant, with equal opportunities for all, well then we need to DELIVER on those promises. Martin Luther King said he came to cash a check in Washington, D.C. on a promise that was made in the Declaration of Independence.
    In my own personal experience, and the experience of others, there were people telling me, my own voice telling me, and I was made to feel that I shouldn’t even dare to believe that I have any check to cash. Those that came before were beaten, imprisoned, raped, tortured, killed. I know. But I have been beaten, I have been abused, I have been tortured, I have been singled out, ridiculed, publicly shamed, stigmatized, put down, because of horrible notions of honor, masculinity, and what is right vs. wrong, that actively put my whole being down. But I made a decision, a choice, to put my foot down several years ago and stand my own ground. I have made many enemies, and many friends. With my friends by my side, I will not back down, because those that have injusticed me will not go forgotten, they will not go unnoticed, they will not go free. I have put myself in authority of my own life. Why shouldn’t I be in authority over their lives too, since they had no problem extending authority over mine? They told me what not to do, based on rules they themselves created, so why shouldn’t I do the same to them? I don’t think it’s wrong of me to do that. Not wrong at all. I have taken the keys they used to lock the shackles that kept me bound, and now I have the keys and the shackles to do the same to them. Every single day, they know how powerful me and people like me get, and they cower in fear. But floripa, we’re going all the way. Those memories are as fresh as they were the moment they were created, we will never forget, and we will not back down until we are the ones in complete command. After all, what good is a democracy when its own members think that that democracy doesn’t extend to them? Even though I lived in a democracy, it was a lot more authoritarian than democratic. Well, freedom and democracy come at a price, and that price is that they can shut up and let us speak. Because for so long, they were the only ones doing the talking, and we were made to believe that we dare not even start to think that we had a voice, or anything worth saying, let alone actually speaking our minds without retaliation by them.

  • #267193

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    I know about the stonewall riots. And I’m not insulting those that came before me. I would just like to be treated with dignity and respect. I don’t believe that society should be hierarchical, but painfully, I know that it is. Masculinity is glorified, more so than femininity. I know that humans can be very cruel, but if there are things that we proudly proclaim ourselves to be, fair, tolerant, with equal opportunities for all, well then we need to DELIVER on those promises. Martin Luther King said he came to cash a check in Washington, D.C. on a promise that was made in the Declaration of Independence.
    In my own personal experience, and the experience of others, there were people telling me, my own voice telling me, and I was made to feel that I shouldn’t even dare to believe that I have any check to cash. Those that came before were beaten, imprisoned, raped, tortured, killed. I know. But I have been beaten, I have been abused, I have been tortured, I have been singled out, ridiculed, publicly shamed, stigmatized, put down, because of horrible notions of honor, masculinity, and what is right vs. wrong, that actively put my whole being down. But I made a decision, a choice, to put my foot down several years ago and stand my own ground. I have made many enemies, and many friends. With my friends by my side, I will not back down, because those that have injusticed me will not go forgotten, they will not go unnoticed, they will not go free. I have put myself in authority of my own life. Why shouldn’t I be in authority over their lives too, since they had no problem extending authority over mine? They told me what not to do, based on rules they themselves created, so why shouldn’t I do the same to them? I don’t think it’s wrong of me to do that. Not wrong at all. I have taken the keys they used to lock the shackles that kept me bound, and now I have the keys and the shackles to do the same to them. Every single day, they know how powerful me and people like me get, and they cower in fear. But floripa, we’re going all the way. Those memories are as fresh as they were the moment they were created, we will never forget, and we will not back down until we are the ones in complete command.After all, what good is a democracy when its own members think that that democracy doesn’t extend to them? Even though I lived in a democracy, it was a lot more authoritarian than democratic. Well, freedom and democracy come at a price, and that price is that they can shut up and let us speak. Because for so long, they were the only ones doing the talking, and we were made to believe that we dare not even start to think that we had a voice, or anything worth saying, let alone actually speaking our minds without retaliation by them. [/QUOTE]

    Gay world dominance? Whoa! This is one sick puppy! Grantham, youreally need to get laid.

  • #267204

    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    I have put myself in authority of my own life. Why shouldn’t I be in authority over their lives too, since they had no problem extending authority over mine? They told me what not to do, based on rules they themselves created, so why shouldn’t I do the same to them? I don’t think it’s wrong of me to do that. Not wrong at all. I have taken the keys they used to lock the shackles that kept me bound, and now I have the keys and the shackles to do the same to them. Every single day, they know how powerful me and people like me get, and they cower in fear.[/QUOTE]
    In the first paragraph you refer to MLK Jr. And in the next paragraph you commence with the vitriol I quoted above. You insult and dishonor MLK Jr. for all he stood for, fought for, and died for. You’re truly no different Grantham from the haters you hate. Hate begets hate. Gentileza gera gentileza. The choices you make today will define who you’ll become later in life. Truly, there is little ‘control’ we have over our lives (much less the lives of others), but the one thing we do have 100% control over is our attitude. Be careful, or you might end up the stereotypical bitter old queenâ‚Ǩ¬¶.

  • #267215

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    “Gay jokes imply that there is something inherently flawed, or wrong, or inferior, about being gay.”
    As there is about blondes, Portuguese, Belgians, Polis, Jews, Arabs, Indians, Christians and I can go on a and on and on.
    And what about hetero jokes made by gay?

  • #267218

    Anonymous

    I’m with Sven here.
    Jokes are called jokes for a reason:
    We’re not supposed to take them too seriously. So lighten up, will ya.

  • #267226

    Anonymous

    “Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest!

  • #267227

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]”Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]

    DeadThis is the closest emoticon there is for vomiting.
  • #267228

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa] [QUOTE=Grantham]
    I have put myself in authority of my own life. Why shouldn’t I be in authority over their lives too, since they had no problem extending authority over mine? They told me what not to do, based on rules they themselves created, so why shouldn’t I do the same to them? I don’t think it’s wrong of me to do that. Not wrong at all. I have taken the keys they used to lock the shackles that kept me bound, and now I have the keys and the shackles to do the same to them. Every single day, they know how powerful me and people like me get, and they cower in fear.[/QUOTE]
    In the first paragraph you refer to MLK Jr.  And in the next paragraph
    you commence with the vitriol I quoted above.  You insult and dishonor
    MLK Jr. for all he stood for, fought for, and died for.¬† You’re truly no
    different Grantham from the haters you hate.  Hate begets hate.  Gentileza gera
    gentileza
    .¬† The choices you make today will define who you’ll become
    later in life.¬† Truly, there is little ‘control’ we have over our lives (much less the lives of others), but the one thing we do have 100% control over is our attitude.¬† Be careful, or you might end up the stereotypical bitter old queenâ‚Ǩ¬¶.
    [/QUOTE]
    Oh Floripa, you just don’t get it, do you? Is this your attempt to calm me down because if I’m right, then you might be in trouble? Are you a homophobe? Have you ever treated any gay person as if they were scum? Forgiveness will be granted, as long as you apologize and change and are never homophobic again. Forgiveness may be granted, but remember, it will not be forgotten. It will stay in the history books as a reminder of what horrible things people are capable of. No one’s record is wiped clean, you have to live with that til the day you die, and be remembered for it in posterity. It’s only fair.
    And I don’t hate people floripa. I have realized that there are notions of right and wrong that people, for whatever reason, are taught, brought up on, and feel internally. What we have to change is those notions and feelings, and experiences, and we can change the person. However, if you think I’m going to be Gandhi and take the higher path, well, you better think again. The stigmatization has been too real for too many of us. We’re stilling dying of AIDS. They’re still calling us pedophiles. Perverts. They’re still trying to turn us straight. Oh, I can go and on and on about the absurdities here, but I’ll just stop, lol.

  • #267229

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira] “Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]
    YES THANK YOU!!! This is something we can agree on, even if I don’t agree with your cut throat capitalist ways. Straight, while, male privilege at its finest is correct! There’s really no better way to put it.

  • #267231

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=sven] “Gay jokes imply that there is something inherently flawed, or wrong, or inferior, about being gay.”
    As there is about blondes, Portuguese, Belgians, Polis, Jews, Arabs, Indians, Christians and I can go on a and on and on.
    And what about hetero jokes made by gay?[/QUOTE]
    These are straight jokes made by gay people:
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a piece of sh*t?
    A piece of sh*t doesn’t beat his wife.
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a vibrator?
    The vibrator lasts more than 5 minutes.
    How does a straight woman know she’s dreaming? She orgasms in the dream.
    What’s the difference between a straight man and a pig?
    You can kill and eat the pig.
    I don’t mind straight guys as long as they act gay in public.

  • #267232

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira] @grantham – I think Brazil is just now waking up to the idea of civil rights for ALL humans! You will see a similar attitude in their struggle with racism. I CONSTANTLY have people here trying to convince me that I am NOT a “negro” but a “morena” (because, apparently, refering to person as “brown/dark-skinned” is somehow better than acknowledging that they are, in fact, decended from Africans and look as thought they are descended from Africans).

    The “gay” thing is a constant topic of conversation between me and my private students as well. About a month ago, I told a group of lawyers that they could be sued in the USA for so openly describing people and things as “gay” or “f*ggot” as a form of insult. AND they were SHOCKED when I told them that they had gay men and lesbians working with them (as I have VERY strong “gaydar”- if that’s even a real thing)! They spent a good 2 weeks trying to figure out who could POSSIBLY be gay!
    However, I have noted that there is a HUGE difference between people who have travelled and those who have not. And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.
    There are a lot of people here who are more intellectually curious and sophisticated. But you cannot find them if you stay in the house. You MUST make networking a priority here (as I have said before) because people are so clique-ish. If you are a gringo (particularly if you have blond or red hair or blue or green as, as you would be VERY exotic to the people the farther north you go) you have a somewhat easy leg into pretty much any clique. But you would also really have to become more comfortable with paradox and lack of defined edges and boundaries, as most people here simply do not think that way!
    As a matter of fact, I think that many of them do not think at all, unless you bring something up. However, I have found that most of the fairly educated folks actually enjoy some intellectual provocation over a beer. Its just that many of them have never had the opportunity to think (as ridiculous as that sounds) because it was never required of them before!

    [/QUOTE]
    LOl, gay people amongst us? Who would’ve known!! LOL.
    The down low is strange, I can’t wrap my head around it. If you’re doing that, you must be bisexual, or a gay man with a really tortured soul. Their wives must be miserable. I wonder if their wives don’t know… And how do you know, that’s the question? I myself, I’m like 100% gay, I could sleep with a woman, but, it’s just not the same.

  • #267235

    Kathy2012
    Participant

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira] “Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]
    Tumblr is leaking again.

  • #267251

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=ObviouslyGYN] [QUOTE=bamabrasileira] “Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]
    Tumblr is leaking again. [/QUOTE]

    LOLLIKE I WAS SAYING…
  • #267252

    Anonymous

    @grantham – to be honest, it has been my experience that Brazilians are just “sexual”. At least they are in this area. They live so happily in the grey areas of life that it seems to include how they experience themselves sexually. I have just learned to accept their highly paradoxical way of being. There is often very little self awareness in walking through their lives, which is how they can be so comfortable with things like: bashing the corrupt government while practicing corruption every day; get mad at Italians and Portuguese folks for thinking a lot of the women are hoes, while dressing in what many non-latino/as consider “prostitute clothes” (LAWD I have never seen so many short short short dresses and hooker heals at fancy restaurants and tongue kissing within 15 minutes of meeting someone in my LIFE!); and declaring themselves “completely heterosexual” while gleefully punching some other dudes cookies once or twice a month (I have heard that, as long as they are the “top” in the cookie punching, it is somehow “not gay”)LOLbamabrasileira2014-06-04 16:14:33

  • #267254

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]while dressing in what many non-latino/as consider “prostitute clothes” (LAWD I have never seen so many short short short dresses and hooker heals at fancy restaurants [/QUOTE]

    I have had full on wood due to an alunas attire ! LOL
    *edit: just to clarify, I am talking about when I gave classes to ADULT executives and not now as I work with children.

    Paulistano USA2014-06-04 16:27:40

  • #267256

    Anonymous

    @Paulistano -LOLLOLLOLLOLTHANK YOU for being honest about this!

  • #267257

    Finrudd
    Participant

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnOJgDW0gPI

    I watched this film, posted on FB recently by a friend of mine who is gay – quite good. I tend not to discriminate against people because of gender, race or sexual orientation, but more based on whether or not they are total dicks or not. All that said and done, I can understand not wanting to be a gay man in Brazil if there were options to be a gay man somewhere else, anymore than I would want to be gay man in Bahrain, or an unfaithful wife in The Sudan. Some places are just more tolerant than others.
    If you all want to get good and offended about it all, have a look at Jim Jeffries videos on YouTube (not for those of a nervous disposition and not safe for work) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sQW7-Hyhbk
  • #267259

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]”Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]

    The suggestion to lightenup is offered by ordinary, hard-working and well-adjusted people. It’s usuallyoffered to those others that may be fairly categorised as losers that aredesperately looking for any excuse to justify their miserable lack-lustre andmaladjusted lives. Whingeing losers whose denial thrives on blaming those thathave made some effort to succeed as being the cause of their failure to integratefully into mainstream society. Among the common excuses that can be listed, as inthis case are, sexual orientation and skin colour; although I hasten to addthat lighten up is not meant literally in the latter case.

    The advice from thisstraight white male to those self-deluding mouthy rabbles may be exemplified inthe following analogy: When you come across a brick wall barring your wayforward, don’t sit down and complain while you wait for the wall to go away.Stand up and by using your initiative, either go around or over it by usingwhat little intelligence and imagination you possess; regrettably, most willfail and then form support groups.

  • #267260

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]”Lighten up” is what people from non-marginalized groups (i.e. straight white people – particularly straight white men) like to tell people from marginalized groups (i.e. everybody else) to try to discredit what they are saying. They think that you shouldn’t give a f*ck because THEY clearly don’t give a f*ck. I always laugh when they get butthurt about something and I get to tell them to “lighten up”. Predictably, they NEVER like it. Straight, white, male privilege at its finest![/QUOTE]

    The suggestion to lightenup is offered by ordinary, hard-working and well-adjusted people. It’s usuallyoffered to those others that may be fairly categorised as losers that aredesperately looking for any excuse to justify their miserable lack-lustre andmaladjusted lives. Whingeing losers whose denial thrives on blaming those thathave made some effort to succeed as being the cause of their failure to integratefully into mainstream society. Among the common excuses that can be listed, as inthis case are, sexual orientation and skin colour; although I hasten to addthat lighten up is not meant literally in the latter case.

    The advice from thisstraight white male to those self-deluding mouthy rabbles may be exemplified inthe following analogy: When you come across a brick wall barring your wayforward, don’t sit down and complain while you wait for the wall to go away.Stand up and by using your initiative, either go around or over it by usingwhat little intelligence and imagination you possess; regrettably, most willfail and then form support groups.

    [/QUOTE]

    Spoken like a true straight, white dude! Esprit, I suggest you lighten up before you blow a gasket bruh!LOL
  • #267261

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    Spoken like a true straight, white dude! Esprit, I suggest you lighten up before you blow a gasket bruh!LOL

    [/QUOTE]

    Ouch! How can I cope withsuch an incisive retort? Maybe I should take comfort from the reality that theworld is shaped around my needs. Confused

  • #267262

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    Spoken like a true straight, white dude! Esprit, I suggest you lighten up before you blow a gasket bruh!LOL

    [/QUOTE]

    Ouch! How can I cope withsuch an incisive retort? Maybe I should take comfort from the reality that theworld is shaped around my needs. Confused

    [/QUOTE]

    @Esprit – they don’t get straighter or whiter than you! I bet you are old too. Lighten up dude. I wouldn’t want you to go and gun down a lot of people in a public place because you now are being forced to acknowledge that people other than those you personally identify with actually exist and have opinions that do not gel with yoursWink

    bamabrasileira2014-06-04 17:24:17

  • #267269

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira][QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    Spoken like a true straight, white dude! Esprit, I suggest you lighten up before you blow a gasket bruh!LOL

    [/QUOTE]

    Ouch! How can I cope withsuch an incisive retort? Maybe I should take comfort from the reality that theworld is shaped around my needs. Confused

    [/QUOTE]

    @Esprit – they don’t get straighter or whiter than you! I bet you are old too. Lighten up dude. I wouldn’t want you to go and gun down a lot of people in a public place because you now are being forced to acknowledge that people other than those you personally identify with actually exist and have opinions that do not gel with yoursWink

    [/QUOTE]

    Gun people down?Extraordinary! Judging by the calibre of your early post-pubescent school yard comments,I imagine that you think everybody over the age of twenty-six is old. Unless,of course, you are what is commonly known as a late developer; a somewhat retardedyoung adult requiring special needs and tolerance. And so, given thecircumstances, I shall lighten up and comment no further for the time being. Wacko

  • #267271

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira][QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    Spoken like a true straight, white dude! Esprit, I suggest you lighten up before you blow a gasket bruh!LOL

    [/QUOTE]

    Ouch! How can I cope withsuch an incisive retort? Maybe I should take comfort from the reality that theworld is shaped around my needs. Confused

    [/QUOTE]

    @Esprit – they don’t get straighter or whiter than you! I bet you are old too. Lighten up dude. I wouldn’t want you to go and gun down a lot of people in a public place because you now are being forced to acknowledge that people other than those you personally identify with actually exist and have opinions that do not gel with yoursWink

    [/QUOTE]

    Gun people down?Extraordinary! Judging by the calibre of your early post-pubescent school yard comments,I imagine that you think everybody over the age of twenty-six is old. Unless,of course, you are what is commonly known as a late developer; a somewhat retardedyoung adult requiring special needs and tolerance. And so, given thecircumstances, I shall lighten up and comment no further for the time being. Wacko

    [/QUOTE]

    Good! Now go share this with all of your straight, white, male, and privileged friends. Tell them that you now know that it is best to shut the h*ll up and go sulk in a corner when you cannot stand to listen to, or cannot comment intelligently on what people who are not also straight, white and male have to say!Clap
  • #267273

    kenalag
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    (ever been to Poland? with regard to how things work, excluding the violence)

    [/QUOTE]

    Have you really been there? Having lived in a neighbor country but having family there and after extensive business travel, i can frankly say that this country has made huge efforts without claiming about the past. And they do not have a great past, being squeezed and shared between Germany and Russia.
    You always have to think where they come from, after beening f***ed by communists for ages. But they survided the financal crisis well and still grow.
    Cheers
    Willi

    WilliButz2014-06-04 18:48:35

  • #267274

    Anonymous

    @Willi – Yes, I have been there, and communicate regularly with my Polish friends who still live there and in other places. My comment was just to illustrate that there are other places in the world that function similarly to Brazil. I highlighted a European country, because there is a tendancy to exclude the poorer and more corrupt European countries from conversations about “bad things that exist in the world”. Also, every person and every place can rely upon their past to explain their present. However, we to do not give all people from all places and all backgrounds the courtesy of trying to understand where they came from in order to understand where they are. bamabrasileira2014-06-04 18:58:04

  • #267277

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    @Esprit – they don’t get straighter or whiter than you!

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh yes they do they do get straighter and whiter. Take me for example. I believe in heterosexual marriage. I believe in the traditional family. And I believe that gays should be left alone to live their lives. I just wish that they would stop buzzing in my ears and waving their rainbows in front of my face.
  • #267278

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Steven][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    @Esprit – they don’t get straighter or whiter than you!

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh yes they do they do get straighter and whiter. Take me for example. I believe in heterosexual marriage. I believe in the traditional family. And I believe that gays should be left alone to live their lives. I just wish that they would stop buzzing in my ears and waving their rainbows in front of my face.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOLLOLLOLLOL
    You’re so cute!

    bamabrasileira2014-06-04 21:20:07

  • #267279

    Fernandez
    Member

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    ferrar2014-06-05 01:33:03

  • #267286

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]

    In my 6 years here, a with a wide swath of friends from different classes, ages, etc. I have not been privy to such a “rampant” phenomenon.
    I have seen it mentioned as well on this board but I think it is being blown out of proportion by people in this world.
  • #267287

    815
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    although I hasten to addthat lighten up is not meant literally in the latter case.

    [/QUOTE]

    Brilliant! LOL
  • #267291

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Paulistano USA][QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]

    In my 6 years here, a with a wide swath of friends from different classes, ages, etc. I have not been privy to such a “rampant” phenomenon.
    I have seen it mentioned as well on this board but I think it is being blown out of proportion by people in this world.

    [/QUOTE]

    It DEFINITELY hasn’t been blown out of proportion. You just have to know some gay men. If you do not have gay friends that you talk to very openly and honestly, or if you have weak “gaydar”, you probably will not notice this not-so-hidden world! It is the quentisential secret hidden in plain sight!
  • #267299

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira][QUOTE=Paulistano USA][QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]

    In my 6 years here, a with a wide swath of friends from different classes, ages, etc. I have not been privy to such a “rampant” phenomenon.
    I have seen it mentioned as well on this board but I think it is being blown out of proportion by people in this world.

    [/QUOTE]

    It DEFINITELY hasn’t been blown out of proportion. You just have to know some gay men. If you do not have gay friends that you talk to very openly and honestly, or if you have weak “gaydar”, you probably will not notice this not-so-hidden world! It is the quentisential secret hidden in plain sight!

    [/QUOTE]

    bamabrasileira. Having already diagnosedyour mental condition as suffering the torment of paraphilia, it’s littlewonder that your preoccupation with sexual diversity keeps your panties onfire. If it’s not incest it’s homosexuality or bisexuality and goodness knowswhat as yet hitherto unmentioned depravities keep you wet and horny in youranthropological research and voyeurism.

    Perhaps next week we’ll beentertained with your discoveries about the devotees of the Marquis de Sadewhen you can regale us with half-baked theories about bondage and humiliation,leather, chains and whips concluding your thesis with the belief that it allgoes back to slavery and a willingness to be dominated; the cracker visitingthe slave house and having his way with the demure fillies in the stable. Lady,in the name of sanity, get yourself laid by whatever kind of sexual partnerthat floats your boat and give us a rest from this incessant adolescent crap.

  • #267301

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira] [QUOTE=Paulistano USA][QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.¬†
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.¬†Â¬†
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys¬† do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.¬†Â¬†
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.”¬†Â¬† If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end.¬†Â¬† In that sense, equal opportunity may reign,¬† but don’t get carried away.¬† The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]

    In my 6 years here, a with a wide swath of friends from different classes, ages, etc. I have not been privy to such a “rampant” phenomenon.¬†
    I have seen it mentioned as well on this board but I think it is being blown out of proportion by people in this world. 

    [/QUOTE]

    It DEFINITELY hasn’t been blown out of proportion. You just have to know some gay men. If you do not have gay friends that you talk to very openly and honestly, or if you have weak “gaydar”, you probably will not notice this not-so-hidden world! It is the quentisential secret hidden in plain sight!

    [/QUOTE]
    If we’re talking about these down-low men, well, they don’t really form part of any community at all, except homosexuals who are homophobic about themselves and in the closet and afraid that others will find them out. I don’t understand how they can can have gay sex yet say they’re not gay, don’t like being called gay, and still have wives and kids. I know a few guys like this, and they’re living a double life, a lie. It makes me think “What the f**k? It’s just hypocrisy. They have these “boyfriends” yet say they’re straight?” Straight guys, by definition, just don’t have boyfriends, they don’t have gay sex, they don’t kiss other guys, they don’t even hold hands with other guys. Straight guys may hug from time to time and put their arms around another guy’s shoulders, but that’s it, lol. I mean, I’m all for openness and fluidity, but let’s call it what it is, you know? If you’re being romantic with another guy, then you have crossed the line from being straight to being, even if a little bit, gay. And being gay is not a bad thing, so I don’t understand why they have to shun the word gay, or the notion of being gay. Or even just bi. There’s much less stigma nowadays than there was before. And frankly, all that stigma was misplaced, because it shouldn’t have existed in the first place.
    Regarding the top/bottom thing, it’s kind of… misogynistic, homophobic, sexist, and exploitative. I’ve heard that the top is the “man” and the bottom is the “woman”. The top is “straight” and the bottom is “gay”. The top is “okay” yet the bottom is “wrong”. When we’ve entered this realm, we’ve gone from a loving, EQUAL relationship, to one based on physical sex, dominance, no romance at all, exploitation, and the lack of any emotional attachment. It’s no better than a one night stand. The top/bottom phenomenon is not one embraced by the LBGT community, it is more related to the phenomenon of prostitution than anything the LGBT community embraces. Grantham2014-06-05 13:14:17

  • #267318

    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    If we’re talking about these down-low men, well, they don’t really form part of any community at all, except homosexuals who are homophobic about themselves and in the closet and afraid that others will find them out.
    [/quote]
    The Brazilian gay community is vastly different from the US gay community, as the social dynamics of each country, what they consider “gay.” The ones in these societies that don’t accept gay people but “tolerate” them will do so in different ways, too.
    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    I don’t understand how they can can have gay sex yet say they’re not gay, don’t like being called gay, and still have wives and kids. I know a few guys like this, and they’re living a double life, a lie. It makes me think “What the f**k? It’s just hypocrisy. They have these “boyfriends” yet say they’re straight?”
    [/quote]
    I think you’re talking about the g0ys, right? The ones that will go for anything with another guy and not consider themselves gay?
    That’s another matter all in itself. Gay man that marry just to keep the appearances exist in both societies. What happens is that there are still some places where guys in Brazil will think it’s ok to have sex with a “tranny” and think they’re completely straight just because “she was bottom,” when a. they’rethe ones that are usually bottom, and b. as if having sex with a tranny would make them more straight.
    I can’t tell much about the dynamics of gay men in American society, though.
    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    Straight guys, by definition, just don’t have boyfriends, they don’t have gay sex, they don’t kiss other guys, they don’t even hold hands with other guys. Straight guys may hug from time to time and put their arms around another guy’s shoulders, but that’s it, lol.
    [/quote]
    They do hold hands in some Arab countries. And some Jew men will kills the lips of another guy, which is more or less traditional (NOT a French kiss.)
    Of course you’re right about the sex.
    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    I mean, I’m all for openness and fluidity, but let’s call it what it is, you know? If you’re being romantic with another guy, then you have crossed the line from being straight to being, even if a little bit, gay.
    [/quote]
    Modern Romanticism is a social construction, though. My grandpa and my granny were pretty much a normal couple â‚Ǩ except she hated kissing. Interestingly, this also goes up to pre-WWII Japan. Lots of sex, but no kissing. Most people considered kissing disgusting or even deranged.
    [QUOTE=Grantham]
    Regarding the top/bottom thing, it’s kind of… misogynistic, homophobic, sexist, and exploitative. I’ve heard that the top is the “man” and the bottom is the “woman”. The top is “straight” and the bottom is “gay”. The top is “okay” yet the bottom is “wrong”. When we’ve entered this realm, we’ve gone from a loving, EQUAL relationship, to one based on physical sex, dominance, no romance at all, exploitation, and the lack of any emotional attachment. It’s no better than a one night stand. The top/bottom phenomenon is not one embraced by the LBGT community, it is more related to the phenomenon of prostitution than anything the LGBT community embraces. [/QUOTE]
    The top/bottom thing is something very deep in the Brazilian mindset, gay or not. I don’t know how it is in other cultures, or how it is spread.
    That being said â‚Ǩ and also partially addressing bamabrasileira â‚Ǩ people North and Northeast Brazil are more liberal towards sex, some people South East, particularly Minas Gerais, are extremely conservative, surprisingly enough.
    That being said, what you see depends on the places you go. You don’t expect to see a bunch Christian people preaching in a gay nightclub, do you?

  • #267338

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira][QUOTE=Paulistano USA][QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.
    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]

    In my 6 years here, a with a wide swath of friends from different classes, ages, etc. I have not been privy to such a “rampant” phenomenon.
    I have seen it mentioned as well on this board but I think it is being blown out of proportion by people in this world.

    [/QUOTE]

    It DEFINITELY hasn’t been blown out of proportion. You just have to know some gay men. If you do not have gay friends that you talk to very openly and honestly, or if you have weak “gaydar”, you probably will not notice this not-so-hidden world! It is the quentisential secret hidden in plain sight!

    [/QUOTE]

    bamabrasileira. Having already diagnosedyour mental condition as suffering the torment of paraphilia, it’s littlewonder that your preoccupation with sexual diversity keeps your panties onfire. If it’s not incest it’s homosexuality or bisexuality and goodness knowswhat as yet hitherto unmentioned depravities keep you wet and horny in youranthropological research and voyeurism.

    Perhaps next week we’ll beentertained with your discoveries about the devotees of the Marquis de Sadewhen you can regale us with half-baked theories about bondage and humiliation,leather, chains and whips concluding your thesis with the belief that it allgoes back to slavery and a willingness to be dominated; the cracker visitingthe slave house and having his way with the demure fillies in the stable. Lady,in the name of sanity, get yourself laid by whatever kind of sexual partnerthat floats your boat and give us a rest from this incessant adolescent crap.

    [/QUOTE]

    I have a feeling that I am already getting laid a hell of a lot more than youLOLYou seem really uncomfortable with the complexities of human nature and history that include sexuality and race. Interesting! It makes me think you are a…wait for it…STRAIGHT, WHITE, DUDE who was not aware that there are other people in the world! I am happy that you keep reading my posts and commenting on them with such exasperated GUSTO! It appears that it is you who are the voyeur (not that there’s anything wrong with that)! I’d say that it is you who needs to practice a little BDSM, and ask your dominatirix (or dom – whichever floats your boat) to show you how to remove that big stick up your *ss! I promise you that you will feel better once its gone! You will frolick in the fields and be able to have conversations with people who are not like you without wanting to silence them in some way. You will be able to say to yourself “I do not agree with this person, but I recognize that they have a right to exist just as I do.” Smile
  • #267339

    I think both Espirit and Bamba need to PM each other, meet for a few caipirinhas and then head off to a night of passionate, interracial lovemaking at the local Motel. Then maybe pop a few green-eyed, caramel skinned babies for good measure. You’re both in Brazil after all WinkHeart

  • #267340

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    I have a feeling that I am already getting laid a hell of a lot more than youLOLYou seem really uncomfortable with the complexities of human nature and history that include sexuality and race. Interesting! It makes me think you are a…wait for it…STRAIGHT, WHITE, DUDE who was not aware that there are other people in the world! I am happy that you keep reading my posts and commenting on them with such exasperated GUSTO! It appears that it is you who are the voyeur (not that there’s anything wrong with that)! I’d say that it is you who needs to practice a little BDSM, and ask your dominatirix (or dom – whichever floats your boat) to show you how to remove that big stick up your *ss! I promise you that you will feel better once its gone! You will frolick in the fields and be able to have conversations with people who are not like you without wanting to silence them in some way. You will be able to say to yourself “I do not agree with this person, but I recognize that they have a right to exist just as I do.” Smile

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh my little chickadee,human complexities are my stock in trade whereas you are but one step on anexploratory ladder of your own making while drawing erroneous, if not amusing, conclusionsabout human sexuality; conclusions that are influenced by your overactive and disenthralledyet still unfulfilled libido. You are on a voyage of discovery without sextantor compass and therefore overly reliant on the litmus test of your own secretions.Sweetheart, the work in this area has already been done.

    And of course you’reentitled to not only existence but also to voice your opinions even if I shouldwarn that such are a tad racist and sexist because of your constant critical focusof heterosexual white men; possibly the type, in your experience, that simply wantto use you as an experimental exotic plaything on a temporary basis. Don’t look now but thecoloured chip on your shoulder is showing rather badly. And, finally, if andwhen you resolve your â‚ǨÀúdaddy issues’ the mists will clear and you will be freeto join the rest of us in the world of tolerance and sexual fulfilment.

  • #267346

    Anonymous

    LOL[QUOTE=Esprit][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    I have a feeling that I am already getting laid a hell of a lot more than youLOLYou seem really uncomfortable with the complexities of human nature and history that include sexuality and race. Interesting! It makes me think you are a…wait for it…STRAIGHT, WHITE, DUDE who was not aware that there are other people in the world! I am happy that you keep reading my posts and commenting on them with such exasperated GUSTO! It appears that it is you who are the voyeur (not that there’s anything wrong with that)! I’d say that it is you who needs to practice a little BDSM, and ask your dominatirix (or dom – whichever floats your boat) to show you how to remove that big stick up your *ss! I promise you that you will feel better once its gone! You will frolick in the fields and be able to have conversations with people who are not like you without wanting to silence them in some way. You will be able to say to yourself “I do not agree with this person, but I recognize that they have a right to exist just as I do.” Smile

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh my little chickadee,human complexities are my stock in trade whereas you are but one step on anexploratory ladder of your own making while drawing erroneous, if not amusing, conclusionsabout human sexuality; conclusions that are influenced by your overactive and disenthralledyet still unfulfilled libido. You are on a voyage of discovery without sextantor compass and therefore overly reliant on the litmus test of your own secretions.Sweetheart, the work in this area has already been done.

    And of course you’reentitled to not only existence but also to voice your opinions even if I shouldwarn that such are a tad racist and sexist because of your constant critical focusof heterosexual white men; possibly the type, in your experience, that simply wantto use you as an experimental exotic plaything on a temporary basis. Don’t look now but thecoloured chip on your shoulder is showing rather badly. And, finally, if andwhen you resolve your â‚ǨÀúdaddy issues’ the mists will clear and you will be freeto join the rest of us in the world of tolerance and sexual fulfilment.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOLLOLLOL
    I don’t EVEN know where to begin, so I will just say this:
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHLOLLOLLOL
    What I can’t figure out is why you are so defensive! Perhaps I am hitting a bit too close to home. It’s ok, no one likes to be exposed…especially not through the computer! As I’ve said before, I love the exasperated gusto with which you continue to read my posts! The armchair psychoanalyses are amusing too! This is what straight, white men do when they don’t understand something. They try to make sense of them, but are often unwilling to step outside of their comfort zones to do so! Well, even though you are defensive like a cat stuck in a tree, I think you’ve made real progress in at least reading all the words that people who are not like you have written! Now you must learn how to read them WITHOUT attacking. It’s ok, though. Baby steps…Baby steps…
  • #267349

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=ferrar][QUOTE=bamabrasileira]

    And I have also noted that, at least here in the Northeast, there are a LOT of “down-low” homosexual men married to women with babies and the whole lot, who creep with other men a least a few times a month! I have never seen as many dudes on the downlow as I have seen here.

    [/QUOTE]
    Brazilians are just very sexual creatures.
    Though you’re not the first to comment on this board that male bisexuality in this country is pretty rampant.
    If you’re right, it may be cultural.
    It’s been said here and elsewhere that guys having a go with other guys do not consider themselves gay or anything else if they are the ones in control.

    It’s certainly not part of their “identity” or “lifestyle.” If anything, it’s just a sex act, it’s not defining, and it really doesn’t matter who or what is on the other end. In that sense, equal opportunity may reign, but don’t get carried away. The only prerequisite is horniness.
    [/QUOTE]
    To be honest, it is really difficult to apply the classifications that I am accustomed to to ANTHING in Brazil! There is just a LOT of grey an not-clearly-defined areas in the culture! And I have said previously, most of the people that I interact with just don’t seem to operate with a great deal of logic or self-awareness. They just seem to go whereever the winds take them in any given moment. So in that sense, I’d have to agree that the only prerequisite is horniness!
  • #267403

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=donpelon415]

    I think both Espirit and Bamba need to PM each other, meet for a few caipirinhas and then head off to a night of passionate, interracial lovemaking at the local Motel. Then maybe pop a few green-eyed, caramel skinned babies for good measure. You’re both in Brazil after all WinkHeart

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting thought:Caruthers! Have that woman washed and sent to my tent after supper. Oh, andCaruthers. Break out my Jacques Cousteau rubber suitâ‚Ǩ¬¶nopoint in taking any unnecessary risk these days.

  • #267406

    I’m snorting coffee out my nose at work just reading you two guys going at it. This is entertainment at it’s best!

  • #27401

    luizfeliz
    Member

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