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  • #187259

    Mel_
    Member

    Is anyone else just sick of hearing about Deus and Jesus. It’s everywhere! stickers on cars & trucks, holy shops, T-shirts, mad evangelicals spouting sh*te instead of showing the football. Well it’s like this in Recife. Are things as mad/annoying/heavenly in the south?

  • #187261

    In Rio it is really bad. God=money and favors those who have money.
    It seems the more morally corrupt someone is, the more they feel the need to put stickers everywhere. And they never say “I love God.” It is always “God loves ME” or “God gave me this car/truck/van/etc”. Because he obviously loves the van owner more than the passengers. ;)

  • #187262

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=nikkij12185] In Rio it is really bad.¬† God=money and favors those who have money. It seems the more morally corrupt someone is, the more they feel the need to put stickers everywhere.¬† And they never say “I love God.”¬† It is always “God loves ME” or “God gave me this car/truck/van/etc”. Because he obviously loves the van owner more than the passengers. ;)
    [/QUOTE]
    Or you see that sticker on a really rubbish banger of a car and think that well if he can do anything why the hell did you get that crappy car!

  • #187272

    minhnoir
    Member

    It could alwaysbe worse… I can show you a lot of small towns (and many bigger places) in this country that are more fundy than Rio (and probably Recife as well).

  • #187280

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=OldMiller] It could alwaysbe worse… I can show you a lot of small towns (and many bigger places) in this country that are more fundy than Rio (and probably Recife as well). [/QUOTE]
    Oh I don’t doubt it for a second. What annoys me is not the fundamentalism of it, it’s more the public displays from that are spread across all social strata.

  • #187281

    C’mon, irishdaz, it is just marketing and advertisment. Don’t like it, don’t by the product. Yet, I have to agree, it is very annoying.

  • #187288

    Finrudd
    Participant

    I get scared by huge lorries with slogans suggesting that God is in charge of the lorry’s destiny, rather than the driver…it sort of implies that the driver is resigned to his heavenly fate, and therefore having a ping or two with his lunch is ok, as it’s all in god’s hands anyway…

  • #187289

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] C’mon, irishdaz, it is just marketing and advertisment. Don’t like it, don’t by the product. Yet, I have to agree, it is very annoying.[/QUOTE]
    I know that sure! All I’m saying is that it does my head in!

  • #187290

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=finrudd] I get scared by huge lorries with slogans suggesting that God is in charge of the lorry’s destiny, rather than the driver…it sort of implies that the driver is resigned to his heavenly fate, and therefore having a ping or two with his lunch is ok, as it’s all in god’s hands anyway…[/QUOTE]
    I know, it is petrifying. Especially the big lorries with the Jesus face obscuring half the windscreen.
    I do like the slogan that looks like it says God is a commando…

  • #187306

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=finrudd]I get scared by huge lorries with slogans suggesting that God is in charge of the lorry’s destiny, rather than the driver…it sort of implies that the driver is resigned to his heavenly fate, and therefore having a pingaor two with his lunch is ok, as it’s all in god’s hands anyway…[/QUOTE]That would seem to be a Catholic lorry …
    An evangelical lorry might be headed for Armageddon …
    While the Muslim driver could be seeking paradise with 72 voluptuous celestial virgins …
    DUNGA2011-11-04 15:36:58

  • #187308

    … it is voluptious celestial raisins according to some interpretations
    Oooops

  • #187310

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]… it is voluptious celestial raisins according to some interpretations [/QUOTE]
    Same thing to some apparently:
    A woman for duty / A boy for pleasure / But a melon for ecstasy.” – Turkish Proverb

  • #187311

    Melon, I can picture, but raisins are a perversion IMHO

  • #187316

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]Melon, I can picture, but raisins are a perversion IMHO
    [/QUOTE]
    Didn’t you read your own link?
    – “houris” with “swelling breasts” refer to nothing more than “white raisins” and “juicy fruits.”

  • #187317

    You can’t compare melons to raisins

  • #187321

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] C’mon, irishdaz, it is just marketing and advertisment. Don’t like it, don’t by the product. Yet, I have to agree, it is very annoying.[/QUOTE]
    Axe deodorant doesn’t come banging on my door sunday morning at nine, neither do they scream into microphones with wide open doors and a sound system you only see at baile funks.

  • #187322

    micko
    Member

    @Boris – Don’t you have a child to wet nurse? or at least a property to sell?

  • #187324

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Melon, I can picture, but raisins are a perversion IMHO
    [/QUOTE]
    Raisins are the melons for men with smal ….

  • #187325

    [QUOTE=sven] Axe deodorant doesn’t come banging on my door sunday morning at nine, neither do they scream into microphones with wide open doors and a sound system you only see at baile funks.[/QUOTE]
    Sven, that what you have the dogs for and about loudspeakers and all the screaming, it is nothing personal, just business…

  • #187327

    [QUOTE=DUNGA] @Boris – Don’t you have a child to wet nurse? or at least a property to sell?
    [/QUOTE]
    Nothing to sell, the child is being wet nursed (totally out of my competence), so I am all at your disposal.

  • #187328

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG] Melon, I can picture, but raisins are a perversion IMHO
    [/QUOTE]
    Raisins are the melons for men with smal ….[/QUOTE]
    Is it why Dunga is getting testy with me? Oh my, I shouldn’t have brought it up. Sorry, Dunga…

  • #187332

    celso
    Member

    [QUOTE=DUNGA]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]… it is voluptious celestial raisins according to some interpretations [/QUOTE]Same thing to some apparently:”A woman for duty / A boy for pleasure / But a melon for ecstasy.” – Turkish Proverb[/QUOTE]
    Ben Franklin preferred older women since they are grateful to have a partner, experienced and loving. Great man Ben.

  • #187333

    He most certainly had a point there….

  • #187350

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=sven] Axe deodorant doesn’t come banging on my door sunday morning at nine, neither do they scream into microphones with wide open doors and a sound system you only see at baile funks.[/QUOTE]
    Sven, that what you have the dogs for and about loudspeakers and all the screaming, it is nothing personal, just business…[/QUOTE]
    Last time they where clapping their hands in front of my hous for 15 minutes, even with the doors closed. When I finally went out to get the dogs quiet( I have neighbors you know) I asked if they where clapping becaus they thought my dogs where so beautiful.
    If they come banging on my door, it’s personal. If they stand quietly on a corner passing a paper to anyone that wants it it’s business.
    I doubt they would like me banging on their door, telling them to stop believing.

  • #187352

    [QUOTE=OldMiller]It could alwaysbe worse… I can show you a lot of small towns (and many bigger places) in this country that are more fundy than Rio (and probably Recife as well). [/QUOTE]
    Trust me. I know.
    Ever been to Itaiperuna, RJ? Can’t get much more funsdy than that. :(

  • #187354

    [QUOTE=sven]
    Last time they where clapping their hands in front of my hous for 15 minutes, even with the doors closed. When I finally went out to get the dogs quiet( I have neighbors you know) I asked if they where clapping becaus they thought my dogs where so beautiful.
    If they come banging on my door, it’s personal. If they stand quietly on a corner passing a paper to anyone that wants it it’s business.
    I doubt they would like me banging on their door, telling them to stop believing.[/QUOTE]
    The Catholic’s go by on occasion with their processions. They sing off key, but they aren’t even as load as the kombi’s or sacalao rolante, don’t force me to participate and move on pretty quickly.
    The Jehovah’s knock once and then politely leave.
    The Macumbeira’s knock a few times, wave if they see me in the window refusing to come out and walk away. I once told one I was not interested in their magic healing egg. They never bothered me again and have since moved on to other neighbors.
    The evangelicals are the only ones who will NOT go away, will not accept the fact that I am in a hurry when leaving my house and will not knock for less than five minutes straight at 8am on a Saturday.

  • #187367

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    I disagree on the Jehovah’s witnesses.

  • #187372

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] Is anyone else just sick of hearing about Deus and Jesus. It’s everywhere! stickers on cars & trucks, holy shops, T-shirts, mad evangelicals spouting sh*te instead of showing the football. Well it’s like this in Recife. Are things as mad/annoying/heavenly in the south?[/QUOTE]
    What do you make of the “assemblia de deus” crowd daz? In a country where he who makes the most noise wins, these feckers are top of the food chain. They even have speakers outside of their “churches??”. I’m always amused by how many of these places there are all over, sometimes 2 on the same street. I witnessed a very amusing scene in SP in September where the assemblia went into hand to hand combat in the street with the people in the bar next door. This lot make paisley look like a moderate conformist!

  • #187379

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    If the church is the road to heaven, the assembleia de deus “é o pedágio”!

  • #187381

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal] [QUOTE=irishdaz] Is anyone else just sick of hearing about Deus and Jesus. It’s everywhere! stickers on cars & trucks, holy shops, T-shirts, mad evangelicals spouting sh*te instead of showing the football. Well it’s like this in Recife. Are things as mad/annoying/heavenly in the south?[/QUOTE]
    What do you make of the “assemblia de deus” crowd daz? In a country where he who makes the most noise wins, these feckers are top of the food chain. They even have speakers outside of their “churches??”. I’m always amused by how many of these places there are all over, sometimes 2 on the same street. I witnessed a very amusing scene in SP in September where the assemblia went into hand to hand combat in the street with the people in the bar next door. This lot make paisley look like a moderate conformist! [/QUOTE]
    They’re like Starbucks, setting up a couple of churches on every street to close down the competition. They get the 10% of your wages and laugh all the way to the bank. You can’t fault their business plan.
    Paisley could’ve done a lot worse than to have went on a fact finding mission to Brazil! A colleague of mine, a massive Jesusboy, actually went to Norn Iron to spread the word of the lord on the streets of Belfast through the medium of holy mime. I tried telling him that they’ve enough problems with religion up there over the years. Though on reflection, he may have been a unifying force-both sides joining forces to condemn such mad behaviour. He enjoyed the experience. He’s from the Assemblia de Deus and is as mad as a window.

  • #187382

    No, they are the highway robbers

  • #187409

    Milenko
    Participant

    I’ve been told church is a good place to get women?!? I always imagined this scenario in my head, priest asking me, son, do you believe in god? and I would say oh no padre I’m just her to pick up women.

  • #187426

    Mel_
    Member

    I’d imagine it is. It’d be a long play mind. If you can sit through all the moronic intelligence damage then you could pick up some quality gash. Be seen as respectable and an upstanding member of the community and all that. Then retire to a local pay by the hour establishment and discuss St. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians.

  • #187432

    Cici
    Member

    A colleague of mine, a massive Jesusboy, actually went to Norn Iron to spread the word of the lord on the streets of Belfast through the medium of holy mime. I tried telling him that they’ve enough problems with religion up there over the years. Though on reflection, he may have been a unifying force-both sides joining forces to condemn such mad behaviour. He enjoyed the experience. He’s from the Assemblia de Deus and is as mad as a window.
    I think all of the assemblia crowd are yo-yo’s. Funny that he chose mime as his medium? Surely it’s against the very principle of the assemblia who seem to preach a levels of volume capable of bursting eardrums. Still you have to admire his balls for going on a religious mission to Belfast, only surprise he didnt arrive back in plaster or a box! Belfast is losing it’s edge!

  • #187434

    Paulo
    Participant

    [QUOTE=ptic] I’ve been told church is a good place to get women?!?
    [/QUOTE]
    This is a Brazilian thing also.

  • #187435

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal] A colleague of mine, a massive Jesusboy, actually went to Norn Iron to spread the word of the lord on the streets of Belfast through the medium of holy mime. I tried telling him that they’ve enough problems with religion up there over the years. Though on reflection, he may have been a unifying force-both sides joining forces to condemn such mad behaviour. He enjoyed the experience. He’s from the Assemblia de Deus and is as mad as a window.
    I think all of the assemblia crowd are yo-yo’s. Funny that he chose mime as his medium? Surely it’s against the very principle of the assemblia who seem to preach a levels of volume capable of bursting eardrums. Still you have to admire his balls for going on a religious mission to Belfast, only surprise he didnt arrive back in plaster or a box! Belfast is losing it’s edge! [/QUOTE]
    The assemblia crowd are lunatics, but they’re only the most famous. There are dozens of other smaller mentalist churches about too (they also think the assemblia is mad). Belfast is indeed losing its edge. They don’t like strangers there. I blame the peace process! Still, the nordies do have a sense of humour. My colleague would enact religious moments with his church like Daniel and the Lions and Noah and the ark. Would’ve loved to have seen it.

  • #187450

    Cici
    Member

    Would have paid good money to see that! Must have been hilarious! Certainly beats the “we are from Romania and we are very poor” crowd that seem to be all over Belfast these days!

  • #187465

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=ptic] I’ve been told church is a good place to get women?!?[/QUOTE]
    It is
    Ask them out to drink a beer with you after mass.
    It actually works
    At least it worked for me in a small town in Paraiba.

  • #187472

    agri2001
    Participant

    Count me in.
    Went to the local evangelical madhouses here in Alagoas and never had so much luck in my life.
    Problems arose when the pastors approached me and asked as to my lack of monetary contribution, They didn’t care that I was bedding his female flock, only about the money part.Big%20smile

  • #187506

    100% Jesus!

  • #187507

    Mel_
    Member

    110% Jesus! – slacker.irishdaz2011-11-06 13:45:37

  • #187512

    Milenko
    Participant

    [QUOTE=agri2001]Count me in.
    Went to the local evangelical madhouses here in Alagoas and never had so much luck in my life.
    Problems arose when the pastors approached me and asked as to my lack of monetary contribution, They didn’t care that I was bedding his female flock, only about the money part.Big%20smile
    [/QUOTE]
    Is he a father or pimp?!? Because there’s dillema you see, if you pay him then you’re infact sleeping with prostitutes and the whole church becomes a brothel …

  • #187513

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=ptic]Is he a father or pimp?!? Because there’s dillema you see, if you pay him then you’re infact sleeping with prostitutes and the whole church becomes a brothel …[/QUOTE]
    That is my kind of church.

  • #187526

    Blasphemous creatures, I pray you all have to subsist on warm beer for the rest of your lives and may all your women become chaste with chronic PMS.

  • #188472

    camila2007
    Member

    Go to the USA where that ignoramus Rick Perry is all about Evangelistic tirades. If the US picks him for Republican nominee, there will be Armageddon, he wants Armageddon.
    The Evangelical myth has spread like a cancer in Brazil. They are on the make and on the take. The believers are very ignorant people who want to be told what to do and how to think and whom to glorify.
    They usually sit next to me in the plane and tell me that they are opening a church in Brazil to “help” the people. What they do is rob the people and then when they are bloody fat in dosh they leave the country. They are leeches.
    Stay away from this race! Do what I do, tell them off with a smile! Call them thieves to their faces with a smile. I did that once inside the plane. When you mention that all they want is dosh, they start trembling.
    …some will say that the devil is controling you.LOL

  • #188475

    Mel_
    Member

    It’s OK Chess, he’s no chance after he couldn’r remember which agencies he wanted to shut down during the debate last week.

  • #188481

    Anonymous

    Unfortunately, this is not at all Brazilian. It’s a global disease.
    30% off carpets!!!!! Jesus loves me.
    Won the game!!!! God wanted us to win
    Jesus loves this truck
    Heading out the door? ‘Go with God.’
    The only way to reasonably deal with this is to ignore it. Unfortunately, these moronic people run the world.
    May Jesus be in your heart….

  • #188490

    expt2233, unfortunatly, people who run the world are at best paying lipservice to religious ideals and piggyback on their presumed relationship with God.
    By their fruits…

  • #188499

    toolio
    Participant

    The appliance repair person who came to my house last week arrived in a 12-year-old beaten up car with a sticker that said “Jesus is the secret of my success.” As he left, I was wondering exactly what success he might be referring to. (He didn’t properly fix my washing machine and his success is certainly not reflected in his choice of transportation.)
    I find Roman Catholic religious icons and other religious paraphernalia most annoying in government offices. No government should be shoving religion down my throat, much less any particular religion. I believe in the separation of church and state. I have no problem with any religion or its adherents. I just don’t feel the need to be convinced that their particular religion is better than any of the other 20 major religions in the world. Freedom to worship is fine; proselytizing is not.

  • #188535

    in assemblia spelling) is it an obligation to give 10% of your salary!!! my wife’s cousin is 120% assemblia… she is so poor if she gave 10% of her salary she’d have about R$500 a month left to live and feed her 2 kids!! her husband could help of course but he is usually getting pissed up with other women!!

  • #188553

    Anonymous

    Well I’m quite a fan of God myself, however I don’t like the way everyone abuses it all here. I attend church here and also cannot STAND the hierarchy within the christian church here…. it almost makes me not want to go. I agree that God and everything that has to do with him is thrown around way more than it should be here. Most of it is completely insincere I think.

  • #188558

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=ltjchicklet]Well I’m quite a fan of God myself, however I don’t like the way everyone abuses it all here. I attend church here and also cannot STAND the hierarchy within the christian church here…. it almost makes me not want to go. I agree that God and everything that has to do with him is thrown around way more than it should be here. Most of it is completely insincere I think.[/QUOTE]
    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, whether one is a believer or a non-believer.
    I’m not that big of a fan of God, but I respect your right to be. And I will not try to ram my point of view down your throat. Nor will I drive around with a car that says “This car is the property of an agnostic” or “My potential non-belief in a supreme deity is the secret of my success.” Smile

  • #188564

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=toolio] Nor will I drive around with a car that says “This car is the property of an agnostic” or “My potential non-belief in a supreme deity is the secret of my success.” Smile[/QUOTE]
    I could imagine myself driving around with a bumper sticker that says “Nobody gave this to me”

  • #188601

    Anonymous

    God bless this thread.

  • #188604

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=toolio] Nor will I drive around with a car that says “This car is the property of an agnostic” or “My potential non-belief in a supreme deity is the secret of my success.” Smile[/QUOTE]
    I could imagine myself driving around with a bumper sticker that says “Nobody gave this to me” [/QUOTE]
    Or with a sticker that says NOBODY IS IN COMMAND OF THIS VEHICLE

  • #188618

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]Or with a sticker that says NOBODY IS IN COMMAND OF THIS VEHICLE [/QUOTE]
    Actual Bumper Sticker:
    In Case of Rapture, This Car Will Be Unmanned

  • #188620

    That might get him in trouble with Policia Rodoviaria, for it is a clear violation of the Codigo de Transito

  • #188622

    eurofoz
    Member

    It should be “presente da mamãe” for 90% of these playboys.

  • #188641

    toolio
    Participant

    I’m in Salvador, where car theft is rising at an alarming rate (along with all crime). So how about:
    “I did not steal this car.”

  • #188656

    If you want to do a complete disclaimer you might want to include:
    I bought this car and to my knowledge it hasn’t been stolen from the previous owner

  • #188659

    evogel
    Member

    I am a Spirit filled Christian…. meaning I have met the Spirit of God and have seen things that people would never believe, and they can only be described as miracles. This being said only to give credibility to what I am about to say.
    The whole point of what Jesus Christ did was to make a way for God to redeem relationship with fallen man. He did it out of love and unless God is being used in the context of that love…. it will be unfruitful and pointless. But again we live in a fallen world in need of redemption…. and no need to try to argue that fact cause you can’t
    God gave free will….. so choose this day whom you will serve. Some serve themselves, some serve others, and some serve God, hell even some serve evil spirits. Unfortunately since human beings are selfish by nature, true love can b a difficult thing to come by.
    But the holy scriptures have said and it is point in fact that, “There is no greater love than for one man to lay down his life for another.” cobrakhan52011-11-17 09:21:40

  • #188662

    Anonymous

    Damn, some people are gullible or maybe just dumb I guess.

  • #188663

    evogel
    Member

    If you are making reference to me, then you are way off base lol.

  • #188664

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]and no need to try to argue that fact cause you can’t
    [/QUOTE]
    And if I try will I be smitten? I respect your right to be whatever you want to be. But this is the problem with “faith.” When the faithful run out of plausible arguments, they turn to comments like these.

  • #188665

    evogel
    Member

    Who is arguing I am just stating the facts. But please if you want to have a discussion and not “troll” may be better to not just take the end of a comment then use it create comments that were completely out of context. The comment was
    The whole point of what Jesus Christ did was to make a way for God to redeem relationship with fallen man. He did it out of love and unless God is being used in the context of that love…. it will be unfruitful and pointless. But again we live in a fallen world in need of redemption…. and no need to try to argue that fact cause you can’t.”
    Certainly you can take more out of the comment than a foundation and method to bash faith. How about Love for that matter….. which was the main point of the comment ….. I mean you seem likea fairly intelligent person….

  • #188666

    toolio
    Participant

    I am not going to argue religion in this forum. But you aren’t going to tell me I can’t.Confused

  • #188667

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Who is arguing I am just stating the facts. [/QUOTE]
    What facts?????
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Certainly you can take more out of the comment than a foundation and method to bash faith.[/QUOTE]
    Then why bring faith as fact?

  • #188668

    Anonymous

    Faith is not facts.

  • #188671

    evogel
    Member

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

  • #188673

    toolio
    Participant

    And temptation is …… wait, it’s tugging at me….resisting…resistance is futile….no, won’t argue…..arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

  • #188676

    evogel
    Member

    I would not even bother posting here…. but the orginal poster seems a bit anti-christ.
    But if you guys like “logic” let us be logical.
    There either is or is not a God. But I would think logically….. people have to recognize that there is the possibility….. and if that possibility exists then why would I put myself in a position where I could be blasphemy God. I think I would choose to remain neutral it is only wise. Cause if I am in blasphemy and there truly is a God then um……. lets just say I would not want to be you. Just some solid advice from a concerned individual. cobrakhan52011-11-17 11:02:02

  • #188681

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.[/QUOTE]
    Using this reasoning:
    As a child I had faith in Santa, and hoped for presents, these presents always came, hence Santa exists.
    As a child I bleieved in the toothfairy (Boris, I know, just using it to make a point), whne I wake up my tooth was gone and there was money there, hence the toothfairy esists.
    Faith is just that, a believe in something, it’s the substance of nothing, and certainly is not evidence of anything.

  • #188682

    evogel
    Member

    A fool says in his heart there is no God. And you have faith ….. I guarantee it. Everyone has a measure of faith it is how we were created…. so how do you use your faith if not in God?cobrakhan52011-11-17 11:43:47

  • #188684

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] But I would think logically….. people have to recognize that there is the possibility[/QUOTE]
    So I must admit to the possibility that Santa and the Toothfairy exist? Think logically, is there such a possibility?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    ….. and if that possibility exists then why would I put myself in a position where I could be blasphemy God.[/QUOTE]
    Even if there is a god, how do you know that it’s the god you believe in? It could logically be the god the other guy believes in, so that you comitting blasphemy anyway, just not agains the god you believe in, but “the other god”, Dhra for example, by eating cow meat.
    So thinking logically, not believing is more secure that believing in the wrong deal.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I think I would choose to remain neutral it is only wise. Cause if I am in blasphemy and there truly is a God then um……. lets just say I would not want to be you. Just some solid advice from a concerned individual. [/QUOTE]
    As I said, you could be more blasphemous (logically speaking) praying to the wrong god, than not parying at all.
    By not believing, I remain neutralsven2011-11-17 11:55:07

  • #188685

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]so how do you use your faith if not in God?[/QUOTE]
    I believe in myself. I use auto esteem to my best interest. It never fails me.

  • #188686

    toolio
    Participant

    I believe Satan Evil%20Smileis trying to lure me back into this discussion, but I continue to resist.

  • #188687

    evogel
    Member

    Jesus loves you =)…. and you put faith in yourself which is …. the ultimate mistake…. cause you can’t save yourself =(…. lol I wish you guys could see what I have seen…… enlightenment is wonderful thing.cobrakhan52011-11-17 11:55:50

  • #188688

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] cause you can’t save yourself =([/QUOTE]
    From what?

  • #188689

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Jesus loves you =).[/QUOTE]
    That’s his problem. I’m heterosexual.

  • #188690

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=sven]
    I believe in myself. I use auto esteem to my best interest. It never fails me.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, but what sticker do you affix to that “auto” (just to show that in some strange way all threads in gringoes are related).Smile
    Certainly not “This is the property of Jesus,” I suspect.
    toolio2011-11-17 11:59:37

  • #188693

    evogel
    Member

    Blasphemy is so boring…….. so lets talk about love…… certainly this is a topic we can have some constructive conversations about. Unless trolling is how you get your kicks….. which in that case…. this conversation is a bit pointless =)

  • #188694

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    but what sticker do you affix to that “auto” (just to show that in some strange way all threads in gringoes are related).SmileCertainly not “This is the property of Jesus,” I suspect.
    [/QUOTE]
    “This is my property”
    “I earned this”
    “I am driving and in control of this car”

  • #188696

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Blasphemy is so boring…….. [/QUOTE]
    Just 5 minutes ago you didn’t think it was boring, but now that you lost the arguement based on logic and reason, it suddenly is boring
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    so lets talk about love…… certainly this is a topic we can have some constructive conversations about. [/QUOTE]
    In that case, you should go to the Romance section, this thread is about people being sick about god being everywhere.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Unless trolling is how you get your kicks….. which in that case…. this conversation is a bit pointless =)[/QUOTE]
    O yes, 8065(6 including this one) messages on this forum and still happily trolling
    sven2011-11-17 12:14:56

  • #188697

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Blasphemy is so boring…….. so lets talk about love[/QUOTE]
    If I weren’t so aptly able to resist temptation I would probably say something like “I love blasphemy.” But I won’t Smile

  • #188699

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Blasphemy is so boring…….. so lets talk about love[/QUOTE]If I weren’t so aptly able to resist temptation I would probably say something like “I love blasphemy.” But I won’t Smile[/QUOTE]
    You are doing a goddamn fine job

  • #188708

    evogel
    Member

    Lol GOD IS EVERYWHERE sorry you can;t escape….. maybe stop trying

  • #188712

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Lol GOD IS EVERYWHERE sorry you can;t escape….. maybe stop trying[/QUOTE]
    Well, actually, this thread is not about god being everywhere, but about idiots that are everywhere yelling and yapping about god.
    Religion is like a penis: it’s no problem if you have one, it’s ok if you’re proud of it, but don’t show it around in public, and please don’t shove it down our childrens throat.

  • #188713

    Graphic, yet true. I am afraid I have to agree with you again, sven. Religion and god concepts have too long been prostituted for non-religious objectives and ungodly goals of all forms of control over human beings and institutions.
    Once again, “by their fruits you shall know them…”

  • #188716

    alan danson
    Member

    To lighten up the subject it might be of interest to hear my Evengelical mother in laws take on religion(she lives with us)
    1) After buying the house I returned one night to a room full of Evangelicals(at least 20 people)blessing my house-nice.
    2)A neighbour(eledged macumbeiro) gave me a bottle of Minas cachaca-I had to pour it down the sink at it might have been cursed.
    3)I cant play alot of my Brazilian samba/pagode as the neighbours might hear and it is the music of the devil.
    Happy days.

  • #188717

    E a hora do chumbinho…

  • #188718

    alan danson
    Member

    Chumbinho sem graca

  • #188719

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=alandan] Evengelical mother in laws take on religion(she lives with us)
    [/quote]
    You lucky devil!

  • #188726

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=alandan] To lighten up the subject it might be of interest to hear my Evengelical mother in laws take on religion(she lives with us)
    1) After buying the house I returned one night to a room full of Evangelicals(at least 20 people)blessing my house-nice.
    2)A neighbour(eledged macumbeiro) gave me a bottle of Minas cachaca-I had to pour it down the sink at it might have been cursed.
    3)I cant play alot of my Brazilian samba/pagode as the neighbours might hear and it is the music of the devil.
    Happy days.
    [/QUOTE]
    You poor poor f**ker.

  • #188729

    [QUOTE=alandan] Chumbinho sem graca[/QUOTE]
    True, but it works

  • #188739

    Anonymous

    @alandan: At one point a group of people from my ex-wifes family and a bunch of others walked out to the field at the farm on a full moon night to pray to God and the moon.
    The rest of us was sitting at the neighboring farm drinking beer and laughing at them.
    Got to love the interior of Paraiba

  • #188785

    alan danson
    Member

    What about this one – my son had eczema when he was young and my mother in law said it was because he hadnt been baptized??
    When the floods hit the regiao serrana the bible came out as it was the start of the end of the world-he he.
    I love her really…..
    But it does take me further and further away from organised religions where blind faith and ignorance rule. alandan2011-11-18 04:53:38

  • #188793

    evogel
    Member

    People everywhere speculate about different things. Not saying she is in her right mind….. but who is to say the world is not coming to an end? But yes I am a devout Christian….. and yes I also think there are many fanatics out there that make many faith look stupid…. either because they are completely oblivious to the truth or they are just idiots…. but I assure you God is real and Jesus died for the sins of the world =)and that is the main pointcobrakhan52011-11-18 05:46:43

  • #188794

    Anonymous

    Faith is still not the truth.

  • #188797

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] but I assure you God is real and Jesus died for the sins of the world [/QUOTE]
    Any facts to back that up, or did you logically conclude that from the bible?

  • #188803

    Anonymous

    ^^Brainwashed people does not need evidence or facts.

  • #188804

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]but I assure you God is real and Jesus died for the sins of the world [/QUOTE]
    I will add your god to the list of the other few dozen religions that are assuring me that their god or gods are real. Somebody has to be wrong (or perhaps all).

  • #188808

    Don’t be too harsh on the religious folks. The matter at hand is a complicated one and is loaded with tens of thousands of years of superstition and harsh experiences.
    Bottom line is that each and every human being is faced with reality that his (or her) existence is just a flash on the face of eternity. The only thing that could possibly make more out of it is faith no matter how misguided and erroneous it might appear.

  • #188812

    Milenko
    Participant

    You chaps have become extremly boring, still on the religion subject …

  • #188814

    toolio
    Participant

    Read the title of the thread. What did you think this discussion would be about? Smile

  • #188815

    Yes, I know, eternity, infinity, one’s destiny in the universe, true nature of reality… it all pales in comparison with the latest game score

  • #188818

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Bottom line is that each and every human being is faced with reality that his (or her) existence is just a flash on the face of eternity. The only thing that could possibly make more out of it is faith no matter how misguided and erroneous it might appear.
    [/QUOTE]
    Why? If I have to choose between an eternity in “paradise” and, well, basically nothing, I’d choose for nothing.
    IMHO eternal anything would be utterly boring at best.
    Let’s face it. If you consider god “has been here forever” (he wasn’t created by anyone, but simply “there” forever), that, at some point in eternalness in “heaven” things got so boring that he created man, and, according to the bible, has been playing with us ever since.
    That’s why you have to seaze the day even more if you are a believer. Do they serve beer & churrasco with a nice pagode in Heaven? Or is it just utter boredome to eternity.
    Heck, even the beer, churrasco and pagode will become utterly boring after the first 10000 years.

  • #188821

    Mel_
    Member

    And what if you were married 4 times and each of the your wives that you loved very much and they all predeceased you. Who would you be married to? Could you sleep with them all at the same time? Would they be jealous?
    If they weren’t jealous would they be the same people? Sounds like a hell to me.
    And more importantly, could you wear a hat? I was told to take off my hat visiting the Vatican. I would prefer eternal nothingness to not being able to wear a hat.

  • #188822

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] Would they be jealous?
    [/QUOTE]
    Of course not, eternal happiness is impossible when jealousy exists.

  • #188823

    [QUOTE=sven]Why? If I have to choose between an eternity in “paradise” and, well, basically nothing, I’d choose for nothing.[/QUOTE]
    The choice is your prerogative. Yet, it is worthwhile to look into the matter a little bit more carefully before making it. There is a difference between the informed choice and choosing amongst erroneous suppositions.
    [QUOTE=sven]IMHO eternal anything would be utterly boring at best.[/QUOTE]
    I beg to differ. If you assume that eternity is the equivalence of being stuck with “more of the same”, then I’d have to agree, but once the true panoramic scope of reality is unveiled before you… then things change pretty dramatically.
    [QUOTE=sven]Let’s face it. If you consider god “has been here forever” (he wasn’t created by anyone, but simply “there” forever), that, at some point in eternalness in “heaven” things got so boring that he created man, and, according to the bible, has been playing with us ever since.[/QUOTE]
    A child would be bored with anything that exceeds his attention span, which is usually pretty short. Boredom and short attention spans are just part of the development cycle and are generally telling of the general immaturity and lack of development of a being.
    We are cosmic children of a being we are not capable of yet understanding just like a child can’t fully understand motives and reasons behind parent’s action.
    Actually, we are still more similar to cosmic fetuses and are just as capable of perceiving reality outside of our reality as are fetuses of their immediate gestation environment.

  • #188824

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]I would prefer eternal nothingness to not being able to wear a hat.[/QUOTE]
    It must be a hell of a hat

  • #188825

    Occakarnera
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] Heck, even the beer, churrasco and pagode will become utterly boring after the first 10000 years.[/QUOTE]
    BLASPHEMY!

  • #188826

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=irishdaz] Would they be jealous?
    [/QUOTE]
    Of course not, eternal happiness is impossible when jealousy exists.[/QUOTE]
    But then they wouldn’t be the same person. The would be chaos up in heaven. Lads riding other lads wives etc.
    Sounds like the eternal happiness of the lobotomised.

  • #188827

    [QUOTE=sven]Of course not, eternal happiness is impossible when jealousy exists.[/QUOTE]
    Wise observation, sven. Yet, it seems to me that emotions of happiness and jealousy are confined to our current level of existence.

  • #188829

    [QUOTE=jplap] [QUOTE=sven] Heck, even the beer, churrasco and pagode will become utterly boring after the first 10000 years.[/QUOTE]
    BLASPHEMY!
    [/QUOTE]
    I second jplap! You ought to be ashamed of yourself, sven

  • #188832

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] There is a difference between the informed choice and choosing amongst erroneous suppositions.[/QUOTE]
    The problem is of course the information. The information you refer to is a leap of faith. Nothing you can touch.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I beg to differ. If you assume that eternity is the equivalence of being stuck with “more of the same”, then I’d have to agree, but once the true panoramic scope of reality is unveiled before you… then things change pretty dramatically.[/QUOTE]
    Just another assumption. But when the time comes, we’ll see who was right. If you where right, we’ll shake hands. If I am right …
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    A child would be bored with anything that exceeds his attention span, which is usually pretty short. Boredom and short attention spans are just part of the development cycle and are generally telling of the general immaturity and lack of development of a being.
    [/QUOTE]
    So god has an eternal attention span and does not get bored.

  • #188837

    [QUOTE=sven]The problem is of course the information. The information you refer to is a leap of faith. Nothing you can touch.[/QUOTE]
    Faith is a reality grasp technique. It takes you where knowledge hasn’t yet arrived and experience not penetrated. There are different ways of touching reality.
    [QUOTE=sven]Just another assumption. But when the time comes, we’ll see who was right. If you where right, we’ll shake hands. If I am right …[/QUOTE]
    Agreed.
    [QUOTE=sven]So god has an eternal attention span and does not get bored.[/QUOTE]
    That is the start, sven. I think that concept of God has to be deanthropomorphised.
    If we presume that there is a being capable of originating reality (as we understand it), then human traits have to be divested of it as awfully inadequate.

  • #188840

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Faith is a reality grasp technique. It takes you where knowledge hasn’t yet arrived and experience not penetrated. There are different ways of touching reality.
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, one needs to grasp straws in the hope to explain what needs no explanation. Why does life have to make sense, why can’t life just be life.

  • #188841

    evogel
    Member

    Yes and we all have a measure of faith, it is our choice what we put our faith in. And without faith it is impossible to please God.

  • #188845

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yes and we all have a measure of faith, it is our choice what we put our faith in. And without faith it is impossible to please God.[/QUOTE]
    Which God?

  • #188846

    evogel
    Member

    There is only one God

  • #188848

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yes and we all have a measure of faith, it is our choice what we put our faith in. And without faith it is impossible to please God.[/QUOTE]
    Which God?[/QUOTE]
    I have faith in me, so I am God

  • #188849

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yes and we all have a measure of faith, it is our choice what we put our faith in. And without faith it is impossible to please God.[/QUOTE]
    You realize that you are exactly the kind of person this thread is about, don’t you

  • #188850

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] There is only one God [/QUOTE]
    Oh yes, which one?

  • #188851

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And without faith it is impossible to please God.[/QUOTE]
    For arguements sake, let us assume god exists.
    Let us also assume that his name is Baal.
    You do your best, trying to please god, your god, not Baal.
    Do you think Baal would be pleased?
    It’s like wifes and virtual sex. Your wife probably won’t like you having virtual sex with some chick on the web. She will say you are cheating her.
    The god that exists may think you[‘re cheating him, trying to please the non-existent one.
    I’m playing it safe. I please no-one, so I don’t cheat on anyone either. No virtual sex for me.

  • #188857

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] There is only one God [/QUOTE]
    If god can do anything can he build a fence so high that he can’t jump over it?

  • #188859

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    If god can do anything can he build a fence so high that he can’t jump over it?[/QUOTE]
    We have a winner!

  • #188866

    toolio
    Participant

    Notification messages about this thread–and only this thread–have started appearing in my spam folder. Apparently the god we are speaking of is not overly powerful.

  • #188868

    [QUOTE=sven] Yes, one needs to grasp straws in the hope to explain what needs no explanation. Why does life have to make sense, why can’t life just be life.[/QUOTE]
    It is up to you. If you wish to look for meanings and make sense out of it all, you might be surprised what you can discover. But if you have no aspirations above the mere level of animal existence…. so be it. You get what you ask for, if your desire is nothingness, then nothingness will it be. It is a pity and an awful waste if you ask me, but your will is sovereign in this matter.

  • #188871

    It is a matter of interpretation, toolio
    It seems to me that God is not only all powerfull, but is also good and considerate, for he knows that spamming you would do nothing more then irritate you, hence he redirected all the e-mails from the thread that YOU choose to follow to the SPAM folder
    [QUOTE=toolio] Notification messages about this thread–and only this thread–have started appearing in my spam folder. Apparently the god we are speaking of is not overly powerful.
    [/QUOTE]

  • #188873

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]It is a matter of interpretation, toolio
    It seems to me that God is not only all powerfull, but is also good and considerate, for he knows that spamming you would do nothing more then irritate you, hence he redirected all the e-mails from the thread that YOU choose to follow to the SPAM folder
    [/QUOTE]
    You are a wise man, BorisG Smile

  • #188874

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]If god can do anything can he build a fence so high that he can’t jump over it?[/QUOTE]
    Well, you start off with assumption that God has nothing else to do then to engage in silly activities dreamt up by imperfect minds.
    I guess the real question you wish to ask is a logical trap that would despell God omnipotence based on either way it is answered.
    Hmmmm, can God create square circles?
    From our logical perspective and within our rather limited scope of understanding, I would answer that no. God not only can’t, but won’t do such a thing. I do not think that Deity omnipotence implies the power to do the undoable. But this is a logical trick and, IMO, could only work on our dizzy minds after a few rounds of chopp.

  • #188875

    [QUOTE=toolio]You are a wise man, BorisG Smile[/QUOTE]
    Thank you. Yet, I lay no claim to either sanity nor wisdom. This is probably why I feel right at home in Brazil

  • #188880

    evogel
    Member

    It is always amusing to see people get worked up when you talk about Jesus, but if you talked about buddha or one of the 1 million idols that the Hindus worship…. people do not really care. I spent 2 years living in India witnessing to Muslims….. This is nothing compared to that….. I guess I could be considered a troll actually… I just like to stir up the demons sometimes.
    Jesus is Lord
    First and Last
    Alpha and Omega
    Beginning and the End
    Lord of Lords
    King of Kings
    Magnificent One
    Holy
    Light and Life of men
    Savior
    God is love

  • #188882

    Cobrakhan5,
    I am sympathetic with your earnest yet ineffectual attempts to spead the good news here on the board. I am also more then partial to the folks who resent the senseless and pointless jamming of god and everything related down their throats.
    What works at certain time and under certain circumstances might not necessarily be effective or practical with different people in different places.
    Have you ever contemplated the possibility that your zeal and tactics could actually do a disservice to God?

  • #188883

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Have you ever contemplated the possibility that your zeal and tactics could actually do a disservice to God?
    [/QUOTE]
    Those are the words of a true wise man. The zealots do not serve their god in any way, they actually create a distance between those uninterested and their god.
    The true wise man does not need the words god, Jesus and religion to preach. There are however very few of those.

  • #188884

    evogel
    Member

    Nah I have led hundreds to Jesus…… but how ironic is is… the title of this thread is sick of God everywhere yet God is here too…… sorry no escapecobrakhan52011-11-18 15:37:36

  • #188886

    evogel
    Member

    I am not sick of God everywhere….. U.S. needs it more than ever.

  • #188887

    Once again, I am not questioning your motivation or past effectivness, but I think that a little bit of contemplation, humility, and analysis is in order here. You might’ve led hundreds and driven away thousands.
    Although, this is not a contest and every saved soul counts, we have a duty to become wiser and as harmless as possible in our dealing with our fellow human beings.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Nah I have led hundreds to Jesus…… but how ironic is is… the title of this thread is sick of God everywhere yet God is here too…… sorry no escape[/QUOTE]

  • #188888

    alan danson
    Member

    BorisG – if you said you are God I would follow you
    As long as I can be baptized in vodka that is.

  • #188889

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I am not sick of God everywhere….. U.S. needs it more than ever.[/QUOTE]
    I think that we the title of this thread actually means is that lots of people are sick of in-your-face, crude, ineffective, and primitive peddling of religious ideas and expensive memberships in the existing religious cults.
    When it comes to God, I think that each and every human being can benefit immensly by initiating and developing relationship with God. Unfortunatly, due to the above mentioned circumstances, many become turned off and defensive to the mere idea of the existence of God.
    Intellectual concession of the possibility of the existence of God is the prerequisite for the steps that follow.

  • #188890

    [QUOTE=alandan] BorisG – if you said you are God I would follow you
    As long as I can be baptized in vodka that is. [/QUOTE]
    Baptized in vodka?! Is your idea of heaven involve puking your brain out? or the inevitable hang over?
    No, my friend, I would much rather spend time in quiet contemplation and wonder of what is being gradually unveiled in front of my formerly-bathed-in-vodka brain then in enjoying even the purest of spirits in the best of companies.

  • #188891

    Kevinferno
    Member

    Jimi Hendrix is my jesus christ. Big%20smile

  • #188892

    alan danson
    Member

    The main man Marley was mine-havent really had one since.
    Also liked the teachings of a guy called Krishnamurti;
    “Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, nor through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection…”
    alandan2011-11-18 16:33:49

  • #188894

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] Jimi Hendrix is my jesus christ. Big%20smile[/QUOTE]
    Then your god is dead.

  • #188899

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=irishdaz]If god can do anything can he build a fence so high that he can’t jump over it?[/QUOTE]
    Well, you start off with assumption that God has nothing else to do then to engage in silly activities dreamt up by imperfect minds.
    I guess the real question you wish to ask is a logical trap that would despell God omnipotence based on either way it is answered.
    Hmmmm, can God create square circles?
    From our logical perspective and within our rather limited scope of understanding, I would answer that no. God not only can’t, but won’t do such a thing. I do not think that Deity omnipotence implies the power to do the undoable. But this is a logical trick and, IMO, could only work on our dizzy minds after a few rounds of chopp.
    [/QUOTE]
    I was being facetious, I thought that would be obvious. I’ve never seen any credible evidence of a god/gods. Implying that our minds are imperfect and wouldn’t understand is also an easy answer. As is deflecting the question by suggesting that god would have more important things to be doing. How do you know? Perhaps he loves building walls. Nobody knows or can answer for him and presuming otherwise displays incredible arrogance does it not!
    Whether you (not you Boris, the royal you) believe in a god is your business as far as I’m concerned. I’ll think you’re delusional etc but that’s fine as it’s only my opinion and what am I but stardust at the end of the day?
    What I am sick of is people writing about Jesus on walls and sticking stuff on their cars and blaring out god music when its nice and quiet and not having the gumption to question what a pastor says. I went to a mass recently at an evangelical church and there was a 14 year old guest speaker talking about love and marriage. The mass goers were lapping it up. I was thinking…
    This is a completely f**king mad place. What does this wee lad know about any of it.
    Some of the congregation thought he was wise beyond his years and thought me rude for asking if he’d ever had a girlfriend or had an ride. As far as I can see its a status thing. It cannot be humanly possible to listen to the crazy mad stuff that does be preached in those churches. When I have the misfortune to have to go to a church my mind wonders after about 2 seconds. Surely everyone elses does to?

  • #188900

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] Jimi Hendrix is my jesus christ. Big%20smile[/QUOTE]
    I have two gods. Maradona & The Dude.

  • #188901

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Gods don’t die. They don’t even live, they simply are. So, Jimmy H is, Bob M is, Elvis is, Janis is, Ian Curtis is.
    They all are!

  • #188902

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Once again, I am not questioning your motivation or past effectivness, but I think that a little bit of contemplation, humility, and analysis is in order here. You might’ve led hundreds and driven away thousands.
    Although, this is not a contest and every saved soul counts, we have a duty to become wiser and as harmless as possible in our dealing with our fellow human beings.
    [/QUOTE]
    As an atheist/agnostic person I have always found that there is a mutual benefit in discussing religion, any religion with wise people. One of my ex girlfriends uncle, with whom she lived, was a catholic priest, holding the title of doctor. Discussing the bible and other religions over a glass (or two) of wine was always a pleasure.
    Zealots on the other hand, usually have no arguments, they just try to scream louder, and think that if they utter the words god and Jesus enough, they will make the other part understand.
    It takes a lot more to convince the intelligent mind.

  • #188904

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]It is always amusing to see people get worked up when you talk about Jesus, but if you talked about buddha or one of the 1 million idols that the Hindus worship…. people do not really care. I spent 2 years living in India witnessing to Muslims….. This is nothing compared to that…..e[/QUOTE]
    What do you mean?

  • #188906

    micko
    Member

    The atheists and agnostics on this thread won’t shut up with all their preaching.

  • #188907

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=DUNGA] The atheists and agnostics on this thread won’t shut up with all their preaching.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s our cross to bear!

  • #188908

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    I was being facetious, I thought that would be obvious. I’ve never seen any credible evidence of a god/gods.
    [/QUOTE]
    It was obvious, but still merited a response.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz] Implying that our minds are imperfect and wouldn’t understand is also an easy answer. As is deflecting the question by suggesting that god would have more important things to be doing. How do you know? Perhaps he loves building walls. Nobody knows or can answer for him and presuming otherwise displays incredible arrogance does it not![/QUOTE]
    The imperfection of our minds is obvious to anyone who simply tasks himself to learn about human brain and psychology. I would take it one step further and claim that imperfections and limitations of our minds are obvious to anyone who has one
    As far as arrogance and presumption of suggesting that God has more important things to do is also obvious to anybody who learns about reality, cosmology, physics, biology and who, of course, is open to the idea that it all hasn’t come around by chance nor is self-sustaining.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]Whether you (not you Boris, the royal you) believe in a god is your business as far as I’m concerned. I’ll think you’re delusional etc but that’s fine as it’s only my opinion and what am I but stardust at the end of the day? [/QUOTE]
    I agree with you about us being in physical aspect essentially stardust, but I do not stop there. I believe that we are far more then mere stardust and that stars and the increadible amount of inanimate energy and matter are devoid of godlike quality of self-will and determination that diferentiate us. I recognize that along and within the material universe there is a level of reality that is our true home. Of course, it is quite possible that I might be delusional and wrong.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]What I am sick of is people writing about Jesus on walls and sticking stuff on their cars and blaring out god music when its nice and quiet and not having the gumption to question what a pastor says. I went to a mass recently at an evangelical church and there was a 14 year old guest speaker talking about love and marriage. The mass goers were lapping it up. I was thinking…
    This is a completely f**king mad place. What does this wee lad know about any of it.[/QUOTE]
    I don’t know about the lad, never heard him. He might’ve had a few borrowed wise things to say, but it is hardly was from experience,
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]Some of the congregation thought he was wise beyond his years and thought me rude for asking if he’d ever had a girlfriend or had an ride. As far as I can see its a status thing. It cannot be humanly possible to listen to the crazy mad stuff that does be preached in those churches. When I have the misfortune to have to go to a church my mind wonders after about 2 seconds. Surely everyone elses does to?
    [/QUOTE]
    I am afraid that I have to agree with you here. I won’t look for God in a church.

  • #188909

    [QUOTE=alandan] The main man Marley was mine-havent really had one since.
    Also liked the teachings of a guy called Krishnamurti;
    “Truth is a pathless land. Man cannot come to it through any organisation, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, nor through any philosophic knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection…”[/QUOTE]
    What is truth?

  • #188935

    evogel
    Member

    Actually I disagree….. why respond to people who are obviously not interested in change and are obviously anti-christ. Just keep speaking the word and hope a light comes on. Is for the benefit of the lost.
    And for those who think evangelists are brainwashed ……. hahaha …… I am one of the most rebellious people you will ever meet.
    I hate organized religion but Jesus also hated the temple being used for a market…… but I do not think that was the point of the original post. The point is to discredit evangelism which I find amusing. And I will always stand up for the truth when it comes to the salvation of souls.
    And by the way …. trying to intellectualize the spiritual things of God will never work. As smart as you may think you are….. sorry.
    For the wages of sin is death but eternal life is through Jesus Christ

  • #188936

    evogel
    Member

    Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life, noone comes to the father but through me.”

  • #188940

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And for those who think evangelists are brainwashed ……. hahaha …… I am one of the most rebellious people you will ever meet. [/QUOTE]
    I would imagine our definitions of rebellious differ wildly, and you are also an oxymoron.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I hate organized religion but Jesus also hated the temple being used for a market…… but I do not think that was the point of the original post. The point is to discredit evangelism which I find amusing. And I will always stand up for the truth when it comes to the salvation of souls. [/QUOTE]
    Evangelism doesn’t need any help when it comes to discrediting, in fairness.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And by the way …. trying to intellectualize the spiritual things of God will never work. As smart as you may think you are….. sorry. [/QUOTE]
    Presuming an opinion of a supreme being is a little presumptuous don’t you think?

  • #188942

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] The imperfection of our minds is obvious to anyone who simply tasks himself to learn about human brain and psychology. I would take it one step further and claim that imperfections and limitations of our minds are obvious to anyone who has one [/QUOTE]
    I agree with you but using this as a tool to imply that the workings of god are so powerful that we would not understand them isn’t very helpful. A medieval priest would use the same ‘logic’.
    [QUOTE=BorisG] As far as arrogance and presumption of suggesting that God has more important things to do is also obvious to anybody who learns about reality, cosmology, physics, biology and who, of course, is open to the idea that it all hasn’t come around by chance nor is self-sustaining. [/QUOTE]
    I disagree with you. I’m coming from a standpoint that there is no god so entertaining the idea that there was a ‘hand/designer’ is a leap of faith too far for me.
    [QUOTE=BorisG] I agree with you about us being in physical aspect essentially stardust, but I do not stop there. I believe that we are far more then mere stardust and that stars and the increadible amount of inanimate energy and matter are devoid of godlike quality of self-will and determination that diferentiate us. I recognize that along and within the material universe there is a level of reality that is our true home. Of course, it is quite possible that I might be delusional and wrong. [/QUOTE]
    Interesting point Boris. I don’t think we are anything special though. It would be great. What is our level of reality? We cannot satisfactorily explain consciousness yet.
    [QUOTE=BorisG] I don’t know about the lad, never heard him. He might’ve had a few borrowed wise things to say, but it is hardly was from experience,[/QUOTE]
    Undoubtedly he did, that wasn’t the disturbing thing. The unnerving aspect of the whole show was the willingness of the adults there to look upon him as knowledgable and accept what he said as truth. That was scary. Married couples with the right to vote and the ability to procreate were nodding their heads in agreement and saying he was wise.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]I am afraid that I have to agree with you here. I won’t look for God in a church.[/QUOTE]
    Can’t fault you there!

  • #188943

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] Jimi Hendrix is my jesus christ. Big%20smile[/QUOTE]
    Then your god is dead.[/QUOTE]
    Ok then Eddie Van Halen is my jesus christ!

  • #188944

    alan danson
    Member

    Van Halen as Jesus Christ!-Maradona(apart from his hand of God)
    Oh you doubters – you know Justin Bieber is the main man.

  • #188946

    evogel
    Member

    Irishdaz…. I feel sorry for you man….. i really do. I will pray for you. A Godless existence is a hopeless one. It is easy to spout off pointless rhetoric over the internet and hide the true heart of a human being…. God revealed himself to me on a level that I can only hope for you, because once you come into contact with the Holy Spirit you are eternally changed. And I already know what you will say…. I have heard it a thousand times from people who are …. anti – christ ….. I know it doesnt work…. I been there and done that….. you can’t fool me for a second …. acting like everything is cool and great. It is foolishness. You need Jesus…. doesn’t matter if you like it or not.

  • #188947

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=alandan] Van Halen as Jesus Christ!-Maradona(apart from his hand of God)
    Oh you doubters – you know Justin Bieber is the main man.[/QUOTE]
    If Justin Bieber is the main man then certainly Lindsey Lohan is the main woman.

  • #188955

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Irishdaz…. I feel sorry for you man….. i really do. I will pray for you. A Godless existence is a hopeless one. It is easy to spout off pointless rhetoric over the internet and hide the true heart of a human being…. God revealed himself to me on a level that I can only hope for you, because once you come into contact with the Holy Spirit you are eternally changed. And I already know what you will say…. I have heard it a thousand times from people who are …. anti – christ ….. I know it doesnt work…. I been there and done that….. you can’t fool me for a second …. acting like everything is cool and great. It is foolishness. You need Jesus…. doesn’t matter if you like it or not. [/QUOTE] Revelations 12:17 – “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring‚Äîthose who keep God‚Äôs commands and hold fast their testimonyabout Jesus.” It’s interesting the vituperative comments against God and Jesus by some of our fellow posters. I think the problem is that they are sick of God being everywhere because they know that He is everywhere and that He knows our sinful nature. Well guess what? Everyone will one day stand face to face with God and then there will be no running away. Take the opportunity to accept His grace and come to know Jesus. There is plenty of room in His house for us all.

  • #188956

    toolio
    Participant

    @steven
    “the problem is that they are sick of God being everywhere because they know that He is everywhere”
    And once again physics enters the religious discussion, with proof that a thread can turn itself inside out, thus creating an infinite loop of dialogue that ensures the original reason for the thread’s existence will continue in perpetuity.
    Jesus Christ (expletive intended).
    toolio2011-11-19 14:30:27

  • #188962

    alan danson
    Member

    Steven,there has been alot of thunder and lightening about today, so I am cutting back on my sarcasm as I could have upset the powers that be.
    Please pray for my soul.

  • #188970

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Actually I disagree….. why respond to people who are obviously not interested in change and are obviously anti-christ. Just keep speaking the word and hope a light comes on. Is for the benefit of the lost.[/QUOTE]
    Well, there are many reasons. First of all, you might be mistaken in your judgement and perceive people who are anti-Christ peddling as anti-Christ. Second of all, you might check the definition of maddness as doing the same thing and expecting different results.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]And for those who think evangelists are brainwashed ……. hahaha …… I am one of the most rebellious people you will ever meet.[/QUOTE]
    How is that?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I hate organized religion but Jesus also hated the temple being used for a market…… but I do not think that was the point of the original post. The point is to discredit evangelism which I find amusing. And I will always stand up for the truth when it comes to the salvation of souls. [/QUOTE]
    It is commendable. Yet I think that there is no need to hate organized religion or hate period.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]And by the way …. trying to intellectualize the spiritual things of God will never work. As smart as you may think you are….. sorry.[/QUOTE]
    No need to intellectualize, I agree. But truth is never afraid of honest inquiry intellectual or otherwise.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]For the wages of sin is death but eternal life is through Jesus Christ[/QUOTE]
    I agree with you here, but people need to understand why and how even though it is not technically necessary for them to understand it in order to enjoy the benefits.BorisG2011-11-19 20:25:03

  • #188971

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    [QUOTE=BorisG] The imperfection of our minds is obvious to anyone who simply tasks himself to learn about human brain and psychology. I would take it one step further and claim that imperfections and limitations of our minds are obvious to anyone who has one [/QUOTE]
    I agree with you but using this as a tool to imply that the workings of god are so powerful that we would not understand them isn’t very helpful. A medieval priest would use the same ‘logic’.[/QUOTE]
    Actually ancient Greeks would also use the same logic. Logic has not changed much in the last couple of thousands of years. I think you what you might actually meant was the same arguments. I would be honored to be compared to such intellectual luminaries as Roger Bacon, Albertus Magnus or William of Ockham who also happened to be medieval priests, but I am afraid that my intellectual feebleness would be a major disqualifier.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    [QUOTE=BorisG] As far as arrogance and presumption of suggesting that God has more important things to do is also obvious to anybody who learns about reality, cosmology, physics, biology and who, of course, is open to the idea that it all hasn’t come around by chance nor is self-sustaining. [/QUOTE]
    I disagree with you. I’m coming from a standpoint that there is no god so entertaining the idea that there was a ‘hand/designer’ is a leap of faith too far for me.
    [/QUOTE]
    Well, even if you believe that it all came about by chance and that natural laws are spontaneus or any other explanation of the natural world, one can’t help it but be awestruck by the sheer complexity and beauty of it all.
    Thus, you can understand the worshipful attitude of someone who believes in creative design and intellectual might behind reality.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    [QUOTE=BorisG] I agree with you about us being in physical aspect essentially stardust, but I do not stop there. I believe that we are far more then mere stardust and that stars and the increadible amount of inanimate energy and matter are devoid of godlike quality of self-will and determination that diferentiate us. I recognize that along and within the material universe there is a level of reality that is our true home. Of course, it is quite possible that I might be delusional and wrong. [/QUOTE]
    Interesting point Boris. I don’t think we are anything special though. It would be great. What is our level of reality? We cannot satisfactorily explain consciousness yet.[/QUOTE]
    True our mind powers are extremally limited, yet capable of opening up the true perspectives of our position in the universe and in the hodge-podge of reality.
    Check out this video that amongst others gives some interesting perspective:
    Our place in the universe
    There is another one that I am looking for that uses a simple tree leaf as the starting point of venturing both into a nano and macro-universe levels. I will share it when I find it.
    There is so much that we can’t yet explain. I am both inspired and humbled by the realization of our limitations and aspirations. Yet, I experience affinity with the universe and reality. My intellectual aspirations are helped and augumented by the realization that there is a fair possibility then there is more to the story and that we are not a cosmic accident.
    Hence comes the religion, which is in my understanding boiles down to developing and maintaining a personal spiritual relationship with God.
    My religion is not a contrary to scientific and rational inquiry into reality, it is complimentary and liberating.
    [QUOTE=irishdaz]
    [QUOTE=BorisG] I don’t know about the lad, never heard him. He might’ve had a few borrowed wise things to say, but it is hardly was from experience,[/QUOTE]
    Undoubtedly he did, that wasn’t the disturbing thing. The unnerving aspect of the whole show was the willingness of the adults there to look upon him as knowledgable and accept what he said as truth. That was scary. Married couples with the right to vote and the ability to procreate were nodding their heads in agreement and saying he was wise.[/QUOTE]
    I share your indignation here.
    BorisG2011-11-19 20:21:20

  • #188973

    evogel
    Member

    Insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting different results…. and yes we all live in some level of insanity.

  • #188974

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting different results…. and yes we all live in some level of insanity.[/QUOTE]
    True, but truth is sane is simple.
    I don’t think that anybody could or should be dragged to salvation kicking and screaming, nor could anybody be disgusted into a relationship with God.
    It seems to me that we should contribute to sanity and not to insanity.
    I think that we should be attractive examples and not intellectual scarecrows for our unbelieving or not-yet-believing fellow beings.

  • #188984

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Svensaid “I am the way the truth and the life, noone comes to the father but through me.”[/QUOTE]

    Where do you invent this crap?
    Bluntly reciting texts doesn’t make them true, they don’t even make an half assed arguement.

  • #188985

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]A Godless existence is a hopeless one. [/QUOTE]
    It feels perfect for me.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    It is easy to spout off pointless rhetoric over the internet and hide the true heart of a human being[/QUOTE]
    Then why not try to use real arguments instead of rhetoric.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    …. anti – christ ….. [/QUOTE]
    Why must it always be “if you’re not for it, then you are against it”.
    It’s a subject I don’t care much about, that just doesn’t mean I am against it.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    You need Jesus…. doesn’t matter if you like it or not. [/QUOTE]
    Well, I don’t. I have a perfect life without him.

  • #188987

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]eternal life is through Jesus Christ[/QUOTE]
    And why on earth would I want eternal life?

  • #188988

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting different results…. and yes we all live in some level of insanity.[/QUOTE]
    No it isn’t.
    Every time you plant a seed, the result is different.
    Every day you wake up, but the day is different.
    Evey night you go to sleep and your dreams are different.

  • #188989

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]eternal life is through Jesus Christ[/QUOTE]
    And why on earth would I want eternal life?[/QUOTE]
    +1
    Also, freedom of religion is utter bs.
    Religion has killed millions and therefore has forfeit their right to practice their insane fairy tale ramblings invented by a group of sheep shaggers.

  • #188998

    evogel
    Member

    hand to face….. religion does not kill people….. people kill people…. but it is always a convenient excuse for the people. People kill people for many reasons….. sometimes just for fun. I think you guys just like to argue…. Still the same conversations going in circles…. I think maybe get a hobby? I prefer weightlifting…… Bottom line you need Jesus…. again if you don’t like it…. doesn’t matter cause you are not God.

  • #189000

    alan danson
    Member

    cobrakhan5-people with religious beliefs have killed others throughout history.
    God doesnt kill, but many of his followers do.
    I dont doubt you yourself wouldnt do this, but you have to accept that millions have been killed in the name of God.

  • #189001

    evogel
    Member

    As a human race we have killed millions in the name of drugs, sex, money, fame, power? It is just an excuse people use to deter the facts and it is interesting it always seems to be those who are anti-christ who use that argument. We need God in our lives or we are doomed.
    I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible or the Koran or studied any other religion? Cause I been studying religions for about 12 years now and I am only 30. … these are all very weak arguments.cobrakhan52011-11-20 10:43:54

  • #189003

    Millions have been killed by atheists. Actually, if we are to tally up all the killing in the world’s history for religious and non-religious reasons, I doubt that religious killings would come even close to the wholesale slaughter caused by nationalistic, racial, territorial, resource-based, conquest, and other types of non-religious annihilation.
    Yet, it is not the point. As the good Uncle Joe (staunch atheist) has said (paraphrasing), death of a single man is a tragedy, death of millions – mere statistics.
    Yet, I would not argue for banishment of atheism. We will continue to pay the high price of atheism in lifes and property for centuries to come if not longer. This is just one more of inevitabilities of our existence on this planet in present epoch.
    If our fellow atheists are to continue to claim intellectual integrity and rational honesty, then we should base our arguments and discussions on facts and not on emotional mal-informed outbursts and urban legends.

  • #189004

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting different results…. and yes we all live in some level of insanity.[/QUOTE]
    No it isn’t.
    Every time you plant a seed, the result is different.
    Every day you wake up, but the day is different.
    Evey night you go to sleep and your dreams are different.[/QUOTE]
    Sven,
    Different within a fairly limited range of possibilities.
    There are no radical diversions, such as nuclear blast taking place upon planting of a seed, or finding oneself on a different planet upon waking.

  • #189005

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] As a human race we have killed millions in the name of drugs, sex, money, fame, power? It is just an excuse people use to deter the facts and it is interesting it always seems to be those who are anti-christ who use that argument. We need God in our lives or we are doomed.
    I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible or the Koran or studied any other religion? Cause I been studying religions for about 12 years now and I am only 30. … these are all very weak arguments.[/QUOTE]
    Here is a video which might help with ur study! Hopefully it might open ur eyes to the farce that is religion!
    http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=8971123609530146514#docid=8883910961351786332

  • #189006

    Why in Spanish? Zeitgeist makes a number of valid points, but it would be interesting to hear them from you. Can you sum up in your own words your argument against religion?

  • #189013

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Irishdaz…. I feel sorry for you man….. i really do. I will pray for you. A Godless existence is a hopeless one. It is easy to spout off pointless rhetoric over the internet and hide the true heart of a human being…. God revealed himself to me on a level that I can only hope for you, because once you come into contact with the Holy Spirit you are eternally changed. And I already know what you will say…. I have heard it a thousand times from people who are …. anti – christ ….. I know it doesnt work…. I been there and done that….. you can’t fool me for a second …. acting like everything is cool and great. It is foolishness. You need Jesus…. doesn’t matter if you like it or not. [/QUOTE]
    Mad as a box of frogs. Pray for me ye eejit.

  • #189014

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Why in Spanish? Zeitgeist makes a number of valid points, but it would be interesting to hear them from you. Can you sum up in your own words your argument against religion?[/QUOTE]
    Obviously u didn’t watch it as its in English! My argument is support of the original posters frustration with religious lunatics being in your face everywhere you go in brazil. The video is (IMO) more factual that the rantings of those who follow religion on blind faith and rumour. The video presents me with a more credible notion of the universe than any soapbox preacher ever could! We are all just vibration and conscience in my belief set. If you don’t subscribe to my belief then I won’t ram it down your throat or attempt to make you believe the same.
    Having lived in Northern Ireland most of my life I have seen at first hand the evils of religion and the devastation of those who lost loved ones in a 30 year religious based conflict. If this is an example of “god” you can keep it!
    Everyone has the right to believe what they want. But evidence is always better to give your belief weight. Religion does not have any weight at all. It’s a business, if you ever visit the Vatican it will hit you like a flying brick! It’s all about the money!!

  • #189017

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Millions have been killed by atheists. Actually, if we are to tally up all the killing in the world’s history for religious and non-religious reasons, I doubt that religious killings would come even close to the wholesale slaughter caused by nationalistic, racial, territorial, resource-based, conquest, and other types of non-religious annihilation.[/QUOTE]
    Being killed by athiests and being killed in the name of athiesm are two very different things.

  • #189019

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible[/QUOTE]
    Funny you should ask. This is the question I often ask those who defend Christianity, only to discover very few have read the entire bible. I have read it twice–once about 20 years ago and again about two years ago. I am interested in the bible only from a historical perspective.
    It’s an interesting work of fiction with a bit of fact mixed in–nothing more.

  • #189020

    Mel_
    Member

    It is an interesting read. The first text on the merits of nationalism.

  • #189021

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible[/QUOTE]Funny you should ask. This is the question I often ask those who defend Christianity, only to discover very few have read the entire bible. I have read it twice–once about 20 years ago and again about two years ago. I am interested in the bible only from a historical perspective.It’s an interesting work of fiction with a bit of fact mixed in–nothing more.
    [/QUOTE]
    It’s hardly a book for those of us with enquiring minds! It all falls apart pretty quick in my opinion.

  • #189027

    Anonymous

    Tried to read it and found it really uninteresting.
    @cobrakhan5: The bible is so full of contradictions that you really need to have a Teflon brain or Alzheimer to not pick up on it.

  • #189028

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]
    It’s hardly a book for those of us with enquiring minds! It all falls apart pretty quick in my opinion. [/QUOTE]
    You mean you didn’t like the first part, where a guy who comes out of nowhere creates a world in a few days, picks up a little dust and creates a creature or two who have domain over all other creatures (no domain for the nasty snake, unfortunately), lets things simmer for a while and eventually finds another guy who will pack a bunch of them into a big boat when god decides to drown the ones he doesn’t like? That, of course, was after what he decided was all good backfired a little. Smile
    toolio2011-11-20 14:47:39

  • #189029

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal] Obviously u didn’t watch it as its in English! My argument is support of the original posters frustration with religious lunatics being in your face everywhere you go in brazil. [/QUOTE]
    Actually, I’ve watched it more then once although not that particular link. I also watched the Addendum. I merely followed the link and saw that it was on the Spanish Youtube with all the comments in Spanish.
    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]The video is (IMO) more factual that the rantings of those who follow religion on blind faith and rumour. The video presents me with a more credible notion of the universe than any soapbox preacher ever could! We are all just vibration and conscience in my belief set. If you don’t subscribe to my belief then I won’t ram it down your throat or attempt to make you believe the same. [/QUOTE]
    OK, then can you, please tell me what conscience is? I would be very curious as to its nature, origin, function, and destiny if there is one. You don’t have to ram anything down my throat.
    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]Having lived in Northern Ireland most of my life I have seen at first hand the evils of religion and the devastation of those who lost loved ones in a 30 year religious based conflict. If this is an example of “god” you can keep it! [/QUOTE]
    What you most likely have seen and experienced was the evils of sectarian strife, failed British Colonial aspirations, and human intolerance. It has as much to do with god as your average land-strife inspired massacre.
    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]Everyone has the right to believe what they want. But evidence is always better to give your belief weight. Religion does not have any weight at all. It’s a business, if you ever visit the Vatican it will hit you like a flying brick! It’s all about the money!! [/QUOTE]
    I’ve visited Vatican more then once. Yes, there is much money, more then we could concieve of, but I think that it is mostly about power and control with money being the means and not the goal of the Catholic Church.
    What kind of evidence are you looking for?

  • #189030

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]Being killed by athiests and being killed in the name of athiesm are two very different things. [/QUOTE]
    Being killed is being killed. Yet, I can correct my statement and say that millions have been killed in the name of atheism and still be factually correct.

  • #189032

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]
    It’s hardly a book for those of us with enquiring minds! It all falls apart pretty quick in my opinion. [/QUOTE]You mean you didn’t like the first part, where a guy who comes out of nowhere creates a world in a few days, picks up a little dust and creates a creature or two¬† who have domain over all other creatures (no domain for the nasty snake, unfortunately), lets things simmer for a while and eventually finds another guy who will pack a bunch of them into a big boat when god decides to drown the ones he doesn’t like? That, of course, was after what he decided was all good backfired a little. Smile
    [/QUOTE]
    How could anyone question such a believable series of events???

  • #189035

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    I have read it twice–once about 20 years ago and again about two years ago. I am interested in the bible only from a historical perspective.It’s an interesting work of fiction with a bit of fact mixed in–nothing more.
    [/QUOTE]
    I think you might’ve missed a lot even looking at the Bible as some histrical fiction. It is a superb collection of documents and writings that spans milleniums and continents, cultures, and nations. There is much factual info in it as witnesses by biblical archeology and other anthropoligical and historical research.
    There are also some increadible myth creation and otherwise and legend materials that deals with the long-drawn evolution of human religious beliefs and experiences. There are some inspired writings mixed in and some truly outstanding writing at all.
    While, I share your conviction that Bible is not the word of God as being peddled by the religious fundamentalists, it does contain some inspirational writings by truly religious men of many nation and age.

  • #189038

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I think you might’ve missed a lot even looking at the Bible as some histrical fiction. It is a superb collection of documents and writings that spans milleniums and continents, cultures, and nations. There is much factual info in it as witnesses by biblical archeology and other anthropoligical and historical research.
    There are also some increadible myth creation and otherwise and legend materials that deals with the long-drawn evolution of human religious beliefs and experiences. There are some inspired writings mixed in and some truly outstanding writing at all.
    While, I share your conviction that Bible is not the word of God as being peddled by the religious fundamentalists, it does contain some inspirational writings by truly religious men of many nation and age.[/QUOTE]
    I was being a little flippant when I made my original comment. While I find most of it beyond belief, I agree that the bible has a great deal of historical and anthropological interest and value. And one can take some meaning from its writings without necessarily subscribing to the god part of the equation. So I don’t dismiss the bible out of hand, although I find Genesis to be difficult to swallow, to say the least. (Hence my comment above). The first time I read the bible I also read a couple of companion “bible as history” books along with it. That’s long ago so I’ve forgotten their names. I also had an “atlas of the bible,” which came in handy. I’m fascinated by history, and those made the bible much more palatable. I’m also fascinated by religion, although not for the same reasons as the “faithful” and certainly not by a single religion.
    As for mythology, I’m a much bigger fan of Irish myths.
    I’m still not buying the main message of the bible as proselytized by a couple of my fellow posters in this thread. However, I respect everyone’s right to take from the bible whatever they wish, just as I cherish my right to disagree with them Smile
    toolio2011-11-20 15:25:47

  • #189039

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [
    Different within a fairly limited range of possibilities.
    There are no radical diversions, such as nuclear blast taking place upon planting of a seed, or finding oneself on a different planet upon waking.[/QUOTE]
    Obviously you don’t know my house.

  • #189040

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible or the Koran or studied any other religion? Cause I been studying religions for about 12 years now and I am only 30.[/QUOTE]
    Just to revisit this statement, I would then assume you have read the Qur’an, Torah and Talmud, Tao Te Ching and I Ching, Avesta, Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon and the other major religious texts. Why on earth would you settle on the bible as your tome of choice? What makes your bible better or more authoritative than the rest? What makes your god exist and others not? Or if you’re polytheistic (which seems unlikely given your posts) what places one god above another?toolio2011-11-20 15:52:38

  • #189042

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=irishdaz]Being killed by athiests and being killed in the name of athiesm are two very different things. [/QUOTE]
    Being killed is being killed. Yet, I can correct my statement and say that millions have been killed in the name of atheism and still be factually correct.[/QUOTE]
    Ok, spout some facts.

  • #189043

    evogel
    Member

    If you have read the bible then you will knwo what true religion is. And this is what scripture says about religion.
    James 1:26-27 ESV
    If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
    How about be part of the solution instead of part of the problem…. complaining about people doesn’t do anyone any good =)… go out and help a poor child or a mother who is struggling, then come back and talk about how religion is worthless.
    You can find more wisdom in that than the 20 pages posted here….. cobrakhan52011-11-20 16:58:45

  • #189045

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] If you have read the bible then you will knwo what true religion is. And this is what scripture says about religion.
    James 1:26-27 ESV
    If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
    How about be part of the solution instead of part of the problem…. complaining about people doesn’t do anyone any good =)… go out and help a poor child or a mother who is struggling, then come back and talk about how religion is worthless.
    You can find more wisdom in that than the 20 pages posted here….. [/QUOTE]
    -Maaaaam! There’s one of them crazy religious people at the door again!
    -Just ignore him son, eventually he’ll go away and annoy the neighbours.

  • #189046

    evogel
    Member

    What makes the Bible better is because it is the only one that actually gives people salvation for their sins….. the others are based on works and you can not work your way into the grace of God it is impossible. There has to be a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. And yes I understand the other religions…. they all pretty much lead to the same thing as I have stated above…. trying to work for salvation.
    Look I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and I am a child of God. I have presented to you factual information on how to get saved….. no sweat off my back if you choose a life of damnation….. I do not have to live in eternity of hell. Do i want this for anyone? Uh no….. but unfortunately not everyone will accept Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin, I have been saved! Praise the Lord!!!!!! I speak in tongues and I have seen prophecies come true…. God is real =) …. he is here and he loves every human being on the face of the earth…. it is sad when people are not willing to accept His love and would rather embrace their own sinful desires, rather than embrace their loving creator. It is the most tragic thing that can happen to a person. Very very sad.

  • #189047

    evogel
    Member

    Irishdaz….. your responses make it obvious that your heart is hardened….. The only thing you can come up with is insults? really? So sad. You are better off remaining silent and go about your business…. than to be anti-christ. cobrakhan52011-11-20 17:16:35

  • #189050

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Irishdaz….. your responses make it obvious that your heart is hardened….. The only thing you can come up with is insults? really? So sad. You are better off remaining silent and go about your business…. than to be anti-christ. [/QUOTE]
    I’ve been called many things in my life but being called the anti-christ is a new one. Can’t wait to tell my friends that a mad American reckons I’m beelzebub!irishdaz2011-11-20 17:54:38

  • #189053

    Have you looked into your avatar lately? It is outright devilish
    I am glad we were ablt to unmask you so soon. When are you planning on taking over the world?
    [QUOTE=irishdaz] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Irishdaz….. your responses make it obvious that your heart is hardened….. The only thing you can come up with is insults? really? So sad. You are better off remaining silent and go about your business…. than to be anti-christ. [/QUOTE]
    I’ve been called many things in my life but being called the anti-christ is a new one. Can’t wait to tell my friends that a mad American reckons I’m beelzebub![/QUOTE]

  • #189054

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG] [
    Different within a fairly limited range of possibilities.
    There are no radical diversions, such as nuclear blast taking place upon planting of a seed, or finding oneself on a different planet upon waking.[/QUOTE]
    Obviously you don’t know my house.[/QUOTE]
    I am all ears… How many dimensions does it exist in?

  • #189055

    [QUOTE=toolio]I was being a little flippant when I made my original comment. While I find most of it beyond belief, I agree that the bible has a great deal of historical and anthropological interest and value. And one can take some meaning from its writings without necessarily subscribing to the god part of the equation.[/QUOTE]
    It is not the fault of the religious texts that they at some point are taken up by religious zealots as literal work of god and elevated in idolatory worship.
    [QUOTE=toolio] So I don’t dismiss the bible out of hand, although I find Genesis to be difficult to swallow, to say the least. (Hence my comment above). The first time I read the bible I also read a couple of companion “bible as history” books along with it. That’s long ago so I’ve forgotten their names. I also had an “atlas of the bible,” which came in handy. I’m fascinated by history, and those made the bible much more palatable. [/QUOTE]
    Genesis is a creation myth and a powerful source of symbolic images propagated through modern myth tradition.
    [QUOTE=toolio]I’m also fascinated by religion, although not for the same reasons as the “faithful” and certainly not by a single religion.As for mythology, I’m a much bigger fan of Irish myths.I’m still not buying the main message of the bible as proselytized by a couple of my fellow posters in this thread. However, I respect everyone’s right to take from the bible whatever they wish, just as I cherish my right to disagree with them Smile
    [/QUOTE]
    I have to confess my outmost ignorance of Irish mythology other then the story of the Leprecaun. What reading would you recommend?

  • #189056

    evogel
    Member

    Irishdaz I did not say you were the Anti-christ I said you are anti -Christ…… meaning you are against Christ. I am pro Christ for instance.

  • #189057

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Irishdaz I did not say you were the Anti-christ I said you are anti -Christ…… meaning you are against Christ. I am pro Christ for instance.[/QUOTE]
    I’m disappointed

    I am not Anti-Christ. Jesus seemed like a gentle soul by all accounts and had many wise things to say. Perhaps he was a a wild child before being converted at 30. Sadly we don’t know as nobody has documented this period. Have you read Phillip Pullmans The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ? Interesting theory, I suggest you have a look at it.
    I’m against people who use a bronze aged book as a moral compass and force it down peoples throats.

  • #189058

    hoganti
    Member

    I’m against people who use a bronze aged book as a moral compass and force it down peoples throats
    +1

  • #189059

    celso
    Member

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]I’m against people who use a bronze aged book as a moral compass and force it down peoples throats
    ClapClap+1
    [/QUOTE] Yes, beware of false prophets. Igreja Universal de Dues = Satan’s helpers. These guys take vast fortunes from the poor, promise “para de sofrer.” Claim to cure ilness, bad fortune, with miracles from God. They buy TV and radio stations and now have a political party so they can steal more money. Yet they refuse the beggars asking for day old bread. God please help Brazil and shower these lying thieves with your wrath. Ahmen. GreatBallsoFire2011-11-20 22:59:59

  • #189064

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=irishdaz]Being killed by athiests and being killed in the name of athiesm are two very different things. [/QUOTE]
    Being killed is being killed. Yet, I can correct my statement and say that millions have been killed in the name of atheism and still be factually correct.[/QUOTE]
    No they haven’t. They have been killed in the name of several ideologies.
    Marx doesn’t preach atheism, he preaches communism, and in preaching communism, he considers that religion is a sign of oppressed people.
    Stalin didn’t send millions to death because of what Marx thought of religion. He killed millions for his own personality cult, which was repudiated later by Krutchev.
    Same goes for Mao. Under his rule millions where killed for the Marxist-Leninist ideology, not in the name of atheism. He repudiated hist Bhuddist religion in the name of an ideology.
    Atheism is no ideology, and people don’t get killed in defense of a non ideology.
    Now the Catholic church on the other hand, they waged war in the “promised land”, burnt free thinking women, calling them “witches”, all in the name of the church and “god”.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I am curious has anyone even posting on this thread even read the Bible or the Koran or studied any other religion?
    (…)
    Cause I been studying religions for about 12 years now and I am only 30. … these are all very weak arguments. What makes the Bible better is because it is the only one that actually gives people salvation for their sins….. [/QUOTE]
    Well, you must have missed a lot in those 12 years. The basis of any belief system is salvation of some kind.
    In early religions, salvation could be obtained by sacrifice, either personal or as a group.
    In later religions, one has to actually do something to gain salvation. You could call this sacrifice.
    Under Cristianity, one can be saved by following Chirst as the messiah.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] hand to face….. religion does not kill people….. people kill people…. [/QUOTE]
    Yes, people kill people, sometimes even for fun. However we don’t burn free thinking women calling them witches, unless it’s in the name of god.
    Besides the bible, I have also read works like “Malleus Maleficarum”.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] If you have read the bible then you will knwo what true religion is. And this is what scripture says about religion.
    James 1:26-27 ESV
    If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. [/QUOTE]
    Even though, the bible is a good book, it’s text is not authentic. It was established by the council of Nice, and has been altered by the church on several other occasions in the benefit of the church.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    go out and help a poor child or a mother who is struggling, then come back and talk about how religion is worthless.
    [/QUOTE]
    I have given 1 1/2 year of my life to help others, but not in the name of faith. We don’t need religion to help others.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Look I have been filled with the Holy Spirit
    [/QUOTE]
    Didn’t they use to call that “fire water”.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I have presented to you factual information on how to get saved….. [/QUOTE]
    I yet have to see 1 fact in all your posts.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I speak in tongues[/QUOTE]
    I think the “fire water” is to blame…
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I am all ears… How many dimensions does it exist in?[/QUOTE]
    4
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Irishdaz I did not say you were the Anti-christ I said you are anti -Christ…… meaning you are against Christ. I am pro Christ for instance.[/QUOTE]
    And why would you say that. He’s not anti-crist, he’s anti zealot at most.

  • #189079

    evogel
    Member

    FACT : We need forgiveness of sin…. instead of completely disregarding this…. how about sitting down one day and start praying and repenting of your sins. If it is worthless and nonfactual I guess you have nothing to fear right?
    Luke 13:3b (NIV) “But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
    Matthew 4:17 (NIV) From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
    Matthew 3:2 (Phi) “You must change your hearts and minds, for the Kingdom of Heaven has arrived!”
    Mark 6:12 (TEB) So they went out and preached that people should turn away from their sins.
    Acts 2:38 (NIV) Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
    FACT: People who are not following Christ are anti – Christ you are either for him or against him it is a heart issue not an issue of the mind. Forget the people knocking on your door, forget the people who you think may or not be using people for their own prosperity…. Look into yourself and judge yourself according to God’s standards.
    Philippians 2:12
    “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. “
    FACT: Just because you do not like what the Bible has to say does not make it untruthful. But if you do not pray and try to connect with God it won’t make any sense to you anyhow because darkness can not understand the light.
    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. ( I think this one should at least ring a small bell.)
    FACT: And no their is not salvation from sin in any other belief system. Go pray and repent then come back and inform us of truth. I will do my best to make sure anyone who reads this post understands how to get saved and not just come on and complain about “those people” that is what starts problems anyhow. If you truly want to be a wise person read the book of James, it has wisdom the world can barely comprehend.
    For instance……
    James 4 1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
    4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
    God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.[c]
    7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
    11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
    FACT : I regress in issues of reference to anti – christ it is not my place to say.
    cobrakhan52011-11-21 09:53:50

  • #189083

    Kevinferno
    Member

    FACT: Kill me please, after wasting time attempting to read some of this garble…

  • #189084

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    FACT : We need forgiveness of sin…. [/QUOTE]
    Even if you consider the existence of sin, why is it a fact that you need forgiveness of it.
    IMHO it’s just an opinion.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    instead of completely disregarding this…. how about sitting down one day and start praying and repenting of your sins. [/QUOTE]
    Since I don’t consider the existence of sins, I don’t have anything to repent.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Acts 2:38 (NIV) Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” [/QUOTE]
    So a serial rapist/killer, that has raped and killed several kids, as long as he “repents” is welcome to the kingdom of heaven?
    I prefer spending eternity in another place then.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    FACT: People who are not following Christ are anti – Christ you are either for him or against him it is a heart issue not an issue of the mind. [/QUOTE]
    Just another dumb opinion, not a fact.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Look into yourself and judge yourself according to God’s standards. [/QUOTE]
    I fail to see how I can judge myself against the standards of something I don’t consider to exist.
    However, if I consider myself according to the standards of the bible, i’d say I’m a pretty decent guy.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    FACT: Just because you do not like what the Bible has to say does not make it untruthful. [/QUOTE]
    FACT: Just because it’s in the bible does not make it true.
    Luke 14:26 (NIV)
    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.”
    So, do you hate your parents? Wouldn’t that be a sin, hating your parents?
    Matthew 17:20
    “For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you”
    Now go move a mountain. If you can’t your faith is less than a mustard seed.
    Exodus 35:2
    For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
    Ever work on Sabbath?
    Deuteronomy 21:18-21
    “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
    You said you where disobedient, so you must be dead then.
    Deuteronomy 22
    “But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
    Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
    Peter 2:18
    “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.”
    Nice guy, this “god”.

  • #189105

    evogel
    Member

    Yes God does forgive rape and murder…. the apostle Paul murdered Christians before he got right with God…. And if you don;t believe in sin then what does it matter if someone is a murder or rapist anyhow.
    cobrakhan52011-11-21 14:01:15

  • #189106

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Good like in life Sven you will need it……[/QUOTE]
    Need what?

  • #189107

    evogel
    Member

    And you don;t want to repent because you know you will have to humble yourself…..

  • #189109

    alan danson
    Member

    When multiple posts start being made from the Bible I do tend to start to fall asleep.
    For me its bye bye to this thread – going away to eat plenty of humble pie(sorry I meant apple pie).alandan2011-11-21 14:17:12

  • #189112

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And you don;t want to repent because you know you will have to humble yourself…..[/QUOTE]
    It seems you suddenly find yourself without arguements, like most that have a specific number of bible quotes that serve their purpose.

  • #189114

    evogel
    Member

    See difference between you and me is … you want to argue…. I want the best for people.

  • #189116

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] See difference between you and me is … you want to argue…. I want the best for people.[/QUOTE]
    No, you want to prove your “facts”, I just state my opinion.
    But I assume that, after they stoned the woman that was not a virgin when she married, they can go and ask for “forgiveness”
    I assume Johnny Walker’s faith is more than a mustard seed:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY3FoYwAu5U

  • #189117

    Mel_
    Member

    Yes, I agree that this thread should be stoned to death outside a temple for blashpeming.

  • #189121

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I have to confess my outmost ignorance of Irish mythology other then the story of the Leprecaun. What reading would you recommend?[/QUOTE]
    There are quite a few collections floating around, but they’re hard enough to find outside of Ireland, let alone in Brasil. Most of what I have I bought in Ireland (lived there for a bit, in Dublin, and have been a frequent visitor.) Any collection is a good place to start. There’s lots to zero in on once you have an an overview.
    I’m not always a big fan of Wikipedia, but its overview of Irish mythology is actually a decent quick read, accurate, and probably enough to tell you whether you’d be interested.
    I have no idea whether these are still available, but two good entry points are:
    A Treasury of Irish Folklore, edited by Padraic Colum
    Irish Folk and Fairy Tales Omnibus by Michael Scott
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology
    The poetry of W.B. Yeats is full of references to Irish myth. That’s how I became interested in the first place. I was also once married to an Irish woman who studied mythology.

  • #189124

    Paulo
    Participant

    Whoever wants to be a Christian must be intent on silencing the voice of reason.
    -Martin Luther (Sermons on the Gospel of St. John, Luther’s Works, V.23, p. 99)
    Kill them all, God will recognize his own.
    -Arnald-Amalric, 1208 (when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars)
    “If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.”

  • #189125

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cardi] If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.”
    [/QUOTE]
    There are people that consider “carta psicografada” as proof in civil and criminal court:
    http://jus.com.br/revista/texto/8941/a-psicografia-como-meio-de-prova
    Caracterizado, portanto, o Espiritismo como ciência, não há razão para o Direito não se valer das provas decorrentes de uma de suas manifestações ‚Äì provas espíritas. Não cabe mais aqui a alegação de que não se é possível constatar a ocorrência de fatos mediúnicos. São eles, também, fenômenos físicos, concebendo-se tal realidade como experiências da quarta dimensão, assunto bastante abordado pela física quântica10.

  • #189128

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    I was also once married to an Irish woman who studied mythology.[/QUOTE]
    No god could save you from that fate

  • #189129

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yes God does forgive rape and murder….
    [/QUOTE]
    This line alone demonstrates the reason that religion is a complete load of bollox! Rape and murder and recant on your deathbed, all is forgiven! How convenient! And people wonder why the romans fed them to the lions

  • #189130

    evogel
    Member

    Have a nice day =) God bless.

  • #189134

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal]
    No god could save you from that fate [/QUOTE]
    God couldn’t, but divorce did Big%20smile

  • #189136

    [QUOTE=sven]
    No they haven’t. They have been killed in the name of several ideologies.
    [/QUOTE]
    What ideologies? In my book ideologies are secular substitutes of religions and cults.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Marx doesn’t preach atheism, he preaches communism, and in preaching communism, he considers that religion is a sign of oppressed people.[/QUOTE]
    Correct. Jesus didn’t preach Christianity, he preached special universal brotherhood of men and universal fatherhood of God. You can’t blame Marx for the Leninism or Marxism, nor can you blame Jesus for radical versions of Christianity.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Stalin didn’t send millions to death because of what Marx thought of religion. He killed millions for his own personality cult, which was repudiated later by Krutchev.
    [/QUOTE]
    No need to lecture me on that. I’ve read all the original works in Russian and have had dozens of members of my family perish during the Russian Revolution, Stalin’s regime, and the World War II.
    Stalin’s cult was one of his means, but it wasn’t his goal. It is a fascinating topic, but it would require another thread.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Same goes for Mao. Under his rule millions where killed for the Marxist-Leninist ideology, not in the name of atheism. He repudiated hist Bhuddist religion in the name of an ideology.[/QUOTE]
    I think you are rationalizing.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Atheism is no ideology, and people don’t get killed in defense of a non ideology.[/QUOTE]
    OK, I let’s adapt your logic. It follows then that theism is not a religion and people don’t get killed in the name of non-religion.
    We can take it further and accept that atheism or theism is the central tenet of a personal belief system that takes on varios flavors as in ideologies and religions that can be advocating violence or not. Hence, not atheism nor theism of general kind can be held responsible for the evil deeds of those who profess to embrace it.
    [QUOTE=sven]Now the Catholic church on the other hand, they waged war in the “promised land”, burnt free thinking women, calling them “witches”, all in the name of the church and “god”.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, this is a very dark chapter of human history, still statistically those killed during the crusades and religious persecutions don’t come even close to those killed in attempts to turn Former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Vietnam and other countries in the XXth Century state atheist.

  • #189137

    I hear ya… drawning ones interlocutors in out of text quotations is an abomination…. Could you spare a slice?
    [QUOTE=alandan] When multiple posts start being made from the Bible I do tend to start to fall asleep.
    For me its bye bye to this thread – going away to eat plenty of humble pie(sorry I meant apple pie).[/QUOTE]

  • #189138

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=toolio]
    [QUOTE=IrishNatal] No god could save you from that fate [/QUOTE]God couldn’t, but divorce did Big%20smile[/QUOTE]
    GOD BLESS divorce

  • #189140

    evogel
    Member

    Jesus loves you.

  • #189142

    Thanks, I will look it up. Funny, I just remembered some poems of Robert Burns I’ve read as a kid growing up in FSU :) Very moving. I know that he is Scottish, but he had some poems about British conquest of Ireland. They burned quite an impression. I will try to look them up too.
    [QUOTE=toolio]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I have to confess my outmost ignorance of Irish mythology other then the story of the Leprecaun. What reading would you recommend?[/QUOTE]There are quite a few collections floating around, but they’re hard enough to find outside of Ireland, let alone in Brasil. Most of what I have I bought in Ireland (lived there for a bit, in Dublin, and have been a frequent visitor.) Any collection is a good place to start. There’s lots to zero in on once you have an an overview. I’m not always a big fan of Wikipedia, but its overview of Irish mythology is actually a decent quick read, accurate, and probably enough to tell you whether you’d be interested.I have no idea whether these are still available, but two good entry points are:A Treasury of Irish Folklore, edited by Padraic ColumIrish Folk and Fairy Tales Omnibus by Michael Scotthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythologyThe poetry of W.B. Yeats is full of references to Irish myth. That’s how I became interested in the first place. I was also once married to an Irish woman who studied mythology.[/QUOTE]

  • #189151

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Have a nice day =) God bless.[/QUOTE]
    Ray?

  • #189163

    Anonymous

    3 pages a day with crapola.

  • #189164

    [QUOTE=BorisG]Funny, I just remembered some poems of Robert Burns I’ve read as a kid growing up in FSU [/QUOTE]
    Boris, you’re a Seminole too?!? Go ‘Noles!!! LOL

  • #189167

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa][QUOTE=BorisG]Funny, I just remembered some poems of Robert Burns I’ve read as a kid growing up in FSU [/QUOTE]
    Boris, you’re a Seminole too?!? Go ‘Noles!!! LOL
    [/QUOTE]
    better a seminole than a gator…Go Vols!

  • #189168

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]better a seminole than a gator…Go Vols!
    [/QUOTE]
    So true HP! And this coming weekend is THE game (FSU/UF)….

  • #189175

    [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]Funny, I just remembered some poems of Robert Burns I’ve read as a kid growing up in FSU [/QUOTE]
    Boris, you’re a Seminole too?!?¬† Go ‘Noles!!!¬†¬† LOL[/QUOTE]
    Hello no, sorry. I run from sports as fast as Fortaleza(Rio)-Newf’d run from the Bible. My version of hell is having to assist games and talk sports for eternity…

  • #189198

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=Gringo.Floripa]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]Funny, I just remembered some poems of Robert Burns I’ve read as a kid growing up in FSU [/QUOTE]
    Boris, you’re a Seminole too?!? Go ‘Noles!!! LOL[/QUOTE]

    Hello no, sorry. I run from sports as fast as Fortaleza(Rio)-Newf’d run from the Bible. My version of hell is having to assist games and talk sports for eternity… [/QUOTE] Haha I think my name is becoming too long. Too bad one can’t change their handle. Anyhow, I unofficially proclaim my new handle as Bible-Newf. I am reborn!!! LOLLOL

  • #189199

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    What ideologies? In my book ideologies are secular substitutes of religions and cults.
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, but that doesn’t make atheism a cult or ideology. It just means that atheism is abused in ideologies to serve it.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Correct. Jesus didn’t preach Christianity, he preached special universal brotherhood of men and universal fatherhood of God. You can’t blame Marx for the Leninism or Marxism, nor can you blame Jesus for radical versions of Christianity.[/QUOTE]
    And I don’t.
    I actually agree with the preaching of the universal brotherhood, I just stop at the part of “universal fatherhood”. Albeit, I can get the idea of a “Grand Architect”. I call it nature.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    No need to lecture me on that. I’ve read all the original works in Russian and have had dozens of members of my family perish during the Russian Revolution, Stalin’s regime, and the World War II.
    Stalin’s cult was one of his means, but it wasn’t his goal. It is a fascinating topic, but it would require another thread.[/QUOTE]
    No lecturing here, just stating the simple fact that you can’t blame atheism for Stalin’s murders, you can’t even blame marxism. It was his own personal cult, as he was an authoritarian leader.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Hence, not atheism nor theism of general kind can be held responsible for the evil deeds of those who profess to embrace it.[/QUOTE]
    I have never blamed theism. I blame religion, organised religion.
    Most organized religions, especially those that basically believe in the same deity, God, Yaveh and Allah, have a superiority complex, that is cause of hatred and war.
    One can say that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was as much based on ethnicity as on religion, but that is distorting the facts, as these different ethnicities where also divided by religion, and the differences in religious view where far more important that the differences in ethnicity.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Yes, this is a very dark chapter of human history, still statistically those killed during the crusades and religious persecutions don’t come even close to those killed in attempts to turn Former Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Vietnam and other countries in the XXth Century state atheist.
    [/QUOTE]
    Again, atheism only being used as a promotional tool, not as an ideology itself. The ideology at fault here is communism. Sure, the red Khmer banned religion, but they also where zealots to an ideology, communism. Not only did they ban religion, they also banned money and free will.

  • #189201

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]My version of hell is having to assist games and talk sports for eternity… [/QUOTE]
    If i’d believe in hell, that is exactly how I’d picture it.

  • #189214

    evogel
    Member

    Today’s Verse
    To the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
    — Romans 16:27 (NIV)

  • #189217

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Today’s Verse
    To the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
    — Romans 16:27 (NIV)[/QUOTE]
    Cobrakhan5, do you have anything to say for yourself? I don’t think that parroting Biblical verses could accomplish anything aside from irritating some people on this forum.

  • #189218

    evogel
    Member

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

  • #189219

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, but these are His thoughts. As Boris pointed out, you yourself don’t seem to have too many.
    Why don’t you just quote the whole bible in one message and be done with it.
    Something like this:
    http://quran.com/
    Al-Baqarah 2:11-12 “And when it is said to them, “Do not cause corruption on the earth,” they say, “We are but reformers.” Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.”sven2011-11-22 10:10:39

  • #189222

    evogel
    Member

    Question: “What does the Bible mean when it says The fool says in his heart, There is no God‚Äô?”
    Answer: Both Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 read, The fool says in his heart, There is no God. Some take these verses to indicate that atheists are stupid, i.e., lacking intelligence. However, that is not the meaning of the Hebrew word translated fool. In this text, the Hebrew word is nabal which refers more to a moral fool, e.g., someone without morals. The meaning of the text is not unintelligent people do not believe in God. Rather, the meaning of the text is immoral people do not believe in God.
    Many atheists are very intelligent individuals. It is not intelligence, or a lack thereof, that leads a person to reject belief in God. It is a lack of morals that leads a person to reject belief in God. People do not reject the idea of there being a Creator Being. Rather, people reject the idea of there being a Creator Being who demands morality from His creation. In order to clear their consciences and relieve themselves of guilt, people reject the idea of God as the only source of absolute morality. Doing so allows atheists to live however they choose—as morally or immorally as they desire—with no feelings of guilt for their refusal to be accountable to God.
    Several prominent atheists have admitted this. One famous atheist, when asked what he hopes to accomplish through atheism, declared that he wants to drink as much alcohol and have sex with as many women as possible. Belief in a divine Being is accompanied by a feeling of accountability and responsibility toward that Being. So, to escape from the condemnation of conscience, which itself was created by God, one must deny the existence of God in order to deny the moral pull of the conscience.
    This is not to say that all atheists are immoral people. Many atheists live relatively moral lives. The point of The fool says in his heart, There is no God is that a lack of evidence of His existence is not the true reason people reject belief in God. People reject belief in God due to a desire to live free of the moral constraints He requires and to escape the guilt that accompanies the violation of those constraints. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them men are without excuse their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie (Romans 1:18-25).

  • #189226

    hoganti
    Member

    I stopped here.

    It is a lack of morals that leads a person to reject belief in God
    Lot of god fearing people with some shady morals. But, repent and all is forgiven…so what’s the point? Molest a kid, say you’re sorry….problem solved.
    Yeah, sign me up. Sounds like a group that I want to be a part of…..

  • #189228

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Today’s Verse
    To the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
    — Romans 16:27 (NIV)[/QUOTE]

    Cobrakhan5, do you have anything to say for yourself? I don’t think that parroting Biblical verses could accomplish anything aside from irritating some people on this forum.[/QUOTE] Yeah really eh? Barf-o-la.Dead

  • #189230

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Rather, people reject the idea of there being a Creator Being who demands morality from His creation. In order to clear their consciences and relieve themselves of guilt, people reject the idea of God as the only source of absolute morality.
    [/QUOTE]
    What total and utter crap.
    Ethics and morality are not god given, they are a result of education.
    Read Maleus Maleficarum and tell me where the morals are. And where are the morals of the crusaders who killed innocent people and let it to god to decide who to save.
    Many god fearing men (and women) have no morals at all.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    One famous atheist, when asked what he hopes to accomplish through atheism, declared that he wants to drink as much alcohol and have sex with as many women as possible. [/QUOTE]
    Who, and when. Please give us the details.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Belief in a divine Being is accompanied by a feeling of accountability and responsibility toward that Being.
    [/QUOTE]
    So, as long as I don’t forget to ask for forgiveness, I can rape and kill all I want.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    People reject belief in God due to a desire to live free of the moral constraints
    [/QUOTE]
    Sure.
    Ever hear of “treat others as you want to be treated” or “gentileza gera gentileza”.
    Your moralistic crap is just a form of saying, I can do all I want, as long as I ask for forgiveness.
    It’s not for nothing that, according to the quran, cristians are fools that should be punished.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    They exchanged the truth of God for a lie (Romans 1:18-25).[/QUOTE]
    And because it’s in the bible, it’s truth.

  • #189234

    evogel
    Member

    Daniel 5:20
    20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.
    Ephesians 4:18
    18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
    Hebrews 3:12
    12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

  • #189235

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Daniel 5:20

    20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.

    Ephesians 4:18

    18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

    Hebrews 3:12

    12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.[/QUOTE] Ok ok ok ok we get it, onward christian soldiers. So moving on who the fak cares? Geezwizzz.

  • #189237

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]So, to escape from the condemnation of conscience, which itself was created by God, one must deny the existence of God in order to deny the moral pull of the conscience.
    [/QUOTE]
    Our ethics, morals and conscience are a direct result of the fact that we, humans, are social animals. We need the aproval of others to be part of the group, so we adhere to a set or rules (ethics) of that group. Modern morals are the result of social evolution.
    Now, if morals where related to the believe in god, then how come so many priests have been involved in sexual abuse of children. By your reasoning, they have faith in god, so they must have morals, and yet, they have surpassed the moral constraints you say their faith gives them. Of course they will be forgiven at penance.
    And if faith is the reason of existence of morals, how come priests have been convicted of all kinds of crimes, including murder.
    Brazilian jails are full of people that believe in god and should have decent morals, according to your argument. It just doesn’t hold up. Christians are just as moral or a-moral as atheists.
    I remember, a couple of years back, one of Rio’s many Favelas was “ruled” by an evangelical drug lord, that obliged everyone to go to church on sunday. He ruled with iron fist and murdered many. Should his faith not have given him morals?
    Famous atheists with strict morals:
    George Orwell
    Kurt Vonnegut
    Simone de Beauvoir
    Noam Chomski
    August Comte
    Karl Popprt
    Sartre
    Bertrand Russel

  • #189238

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf]

    So moving on who the fak cares? Geezwizzz.

    [/QUOTE]
    Did you know that Justin Bieber did a paternity test.
    He also has a relationship with Jesus, so I guess he is not the father, morals and all.

  • #189240

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf]
    So moving on who the fak cares? Geezwizzz. [/QUOTE]

    Did you know that Justin Bieber did a paternity test.

    He also has a relationship with Jesus, so I guess he is not the father, morals and all.[/QUOTE] Must be as well why Lindsey Lohan keeps getting let off the hook after how many drug offenses?? Must be the ole faith working.

  • #189242

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] Must be as well why Lindsey Lohan keeps getting let off the hook after how many drug offenses?? Must be the ole faith working.[/QUOTE]
    That will be over soon as the heretic is changing o Scientology

  • #189248

    evogel
    Member

    cobrakhan52011-11-22 15:15:57

  • #189250

    hoganti
    Member

    Cobra…what is the point of your postings? As a Christian shouldn’t you be carrying the message of god to people? trying to get them to see things how you see them? show them that god is love yada yada yada? I have many a friend that refer to themselves as christians….some of them walk the walk, some of them don’t. but the ones that do offer their thoughts in beliefs in a way that makes you want to have a conversation with you. no preaching to you. maybe you should rethink your approach.
    as far as i can tell you are doing nothing but alienating and angering people

  • #189253

    Mel_
    Member

    I think you should dabble in some non-believing for a while cobrakhan5, test the water. What harm can it do? Should you return to the flock you’ll be forgiven. Just a thought. Good to see things from both sides, not just the mad one.

  • #189254

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=hpeak13] as far as i can tell you are doing nothing but alienating and angering people
    [/QUOTE]
    Or makes people “Sick of God being everywhere” as the name of the thread states.

  • #189255

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] I think you should dabble in some non-believing for a while cobrakhan5, test the water. What harm can it do? Should you return to the flock you’ll be forgiven. Just a thought. Good to see things from both sides, not just the mad one.[/QUOTE]
    The amish do it, as adolecents they have a year to “check out the world” (Rumspringe). The mennonites in argentina do something similar. Even the evangelicals in Brazil have something similar, you just send a letter to your preacher, telling that you will be “afastada” for some time. Then when you’re ready, you just send another letter, telling you want back in. They might want you to remain paying the dizmo though

  • #189259

    evogel
    Member

    cobrakhan52011-11-22 17:45:56

  • #189262

    evogel
    Member

    I could spend countless hours reading a bunch of junk but honestly I have no desire to study a bunch of atheist nonsense when I already KNOW there is a God and I have met the Holy Spirit. I have better things to do with my time like my endless reading for my MBA. I only posted on here cause you guys only got it half right …. and if you are older then I fear your time is running out…. for the younger guys perhaps you will gain enough life experience and hopefully you will have enough common sense not to listen the the ramblings from the Godless.
    Sorry for those who have not been able to meet their loving creator as I have said before it is tragic. But He is patiently waiting.
    For those who continue to mock Christ….. you are only digging yourself deeper.
    I will say though knowing a bunch of new age mumbo jumbo will not save you before the judgement seat. So troll all you want cause at the end of the day I am content and happy and as you mock Christ you condemn yourself .. sad sad sad.
    I will continue to post scriptures here for your reading enjoyment otherwise I have nothing else to say =).
    one of my favorite scriptures.
    There is a way that seems wise to a man but at the end is destruction.
    You guys pander on the evil in the world and then say God does not exist, when treasures of wisdom have been set forth before you and you have mocked it or completely disregarded it. Mocking repentance but not even willing to try. So how can you even be respected for knowledge when you have not experience?

  • #189263

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I could spend countless hours reading a bunch of junk but honestly I have no desire to study a bunch of atheist nonsense when I already KNOW there is a God and I have met the Holy Spirit. I have better things to do with my time like my endless reading for my MBA. I only posted on here cause you guys only got it half right …. and if you are older then I fear your time is running out…. for the younger guys perhaps you will gain enough life experience and hopefully you will have enough common sense not to listen the the ramblings from the Godless.
    Sorry for those who have not been able to meet their loving creator as I have said before it is tragic. But He is patiently waiting.
    For those who continue to mock Christ….. you are only digging yourself deeper.
    I will say though knowing a bunch of new age mumbo jumbo will not save you before the judgement seat. So troll all you want cause at the end of the day I am content and happy and as you mock Christ you condemn yourself .. sad sad sad.
    I will continue to post scriptures here for your reading enjoyment otherwise I have nothing else to say =).
    one of my favorite scriptures.
    There is a way that seems wise to a man but at the end is destruction.
    You guys pander on the evil in the world and then say God does not exist, when treasures of wisdom have been set forth before you and you have mocked it or completely disregarded it. Mocking repentance but not even willing to try. So how can you even be respected for knowledge when you have not experience?[/QUOTE]
    short of death nobody really knows if there is a god or not. what you have is faith.

  • #189264

    kevin owen
    Participant

    No,you don’t know there is a god.You believe there is one but can offer no credible evidence as to why you believe.Your assertion that you have met the holy spirit takes you into serious delusional territory.
    Believe if you want to but unless you can demonstrate the existence of any god,and not anecdotal nonsense,keep it to yourself.

  • #189266

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I have met the Holy Spirit. [/QUOTE]
    HOLY sh*t! What was he wearing and did he speak English? Will you ask him if he supports Santa Cruz from Pernambuco?

  • #189280

    evogel
    Member

    And you can not prove I have not met the Holy Spirit so I guess it is a stand off….. =)

  • #189281

    No, it is not a stand off by any means. While you are correct about impossibility of proving a negative, due to the extravagance of the claim the onus of proof is on you.
    So far the evidence is scarce; for, as I recall, ranting, raving, and Bible quoting diarreah are not listed as fruits of the spirit. (Look up Galatians 5:22-23)

  • #189289

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And you can not prove I have not met the Holy Spirit so I guess it is a stand off….. =)[/QUOTE]
    Hearing voices and seeing imaginary people is a sign of schizofrenia. Are you taking your meds?

  • #189293

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] Will you ask him if he supports Santa Cruz from Pernambuco?[/QUOTE]Yeah, he’s just as likely to be a Palmeiras fan. :-P

  • #189307

    evogel
    Member

    I do not have to prove anything to you….. creation itself is evidence. Men are without excuse, sorry your excuses will NEVER hold up before God.
    Romans 1:20
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

  • #189308

    evogel
    Member

    1 The fool[a] says in his heart,
    There is no God.
    They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
    there is no one who does good.
    2 The LORD looks down from heaven
    on all mankind
    to see if there are any who understand,
    any who seek God.
    3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one.
    4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?
    They devour my people as though eating bread;
    they never call on the LORD.
    5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
    for God is present in the company of the righteous.
    6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
    but the LORD is their refuge.
    7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
    When the LORD restores his people,
    let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
    Footnotes:
    Psalm 14:1 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient.

  • #189311

    evogel
    Member

    6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
    but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
    7 Stay away from a fool,
    for you will not find knowledge on their lips.
    8 The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways,
    but the folly of fools is deception.
    9 Fools mock at making amends for sin,
    but goodwill is found among the upright.
    10 Each heart knows its own bitterness,
    and no one else can share its joy.
    11 The house of the wicked will be destroyed,
    but the tent of the upright will flourish.
    12 There is a way that appears to be right,
    but in the end it leads to death.

  • #189313

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I have met the Holy Spirit.
    [/QUOTE]
    Too much cachaça??

  • #189314

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    [/QUOTE]
    “So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?”
    There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, and science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works.
    Stephen Hawking
    “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
    There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.
    Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time.
    Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
    Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
    When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
    Richard Dawkinssven2011-11-23 10:30:36

  • #189315

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=IrishNatal] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I have met the Holy Spirit.
    [/QUOTE]
    Too much cachaça?? [/QUOTE]
    Too little………….

  • #189316

    Kevinferno
    Member

    Makes me wonder why this guy is on this forum? With the number of hookers and homeless people on many street corners around Brazil I’m sure his onward christian soldiers crap could be better channelled than spewing off all this crap here.

  • #189317

    evogel
    Member

    As you continue to mock please refer to these scriptures
    6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
    but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
    9 Fools mock at making amends for sin,
    but goodwill is found among the upright.

  • #189318

    Cici
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I do not have to prove anything to you….. creation itself is evidence. Men are without excuse, sorry your excuses will NEVER hold up before God.
    Romans 1:20
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
    [/QUOTE]
    Nothing was created! Science has proved that all objects in this “world” are all atoms and molecules vibrating at different frequency. Like ourselves, the only difference is we as humans have conscience. God, as I see it is as fictional as the mad stories of the bible.

  • #189319

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Yeah, he should go to Praça Henrique Lage, at around 11 at night. Full of street kids. Maybe they will be all ears to his “words”.
    There used to be a guy at Carioca, every day, all day, reading from the bible. You suppose that was cobrakhan5? He stopped doing that and now he’s posting here???

  • #189320

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]Yeah, he should go to Praça Henrique Lage, at around 11 at night. Full of street kids. Maybe they will be all ears to his “words”.

    There used to be a guy at Carioca, every day, all day, reading from the bible. You suppose that was cobrakhan5? He stopped doing that and now he’s posting here??? [/QUOTE] Haha he probably got mugged by a few street kids and they took the bible. That could be another reason he may of moved to the forum. It’s safer! LOLLOL

  • #189321

    evogel
    Member

    I am 215 pounds of solid muscle I do not need protection =)

  • #189323

    evogel
    Member

    As you continue to mock please refer to these scriptures
    6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
    but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
    9 Fools mock at making amends for sin,
    but goodwill is found among the upright.

  • #189325

    Kevinferno
    Member

    Guessing your favorite Simpson’s character is Ned Flanders? Big%20smile

  • #189326

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I am 215 pounds of solid muscle I do not need protection =)[/QUOTE]
    Please post a pic cobrakhan5, I’d like to see how close together your eyes are.

  • #189327

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] As you continue to mock please refer to these scriptures
    6 The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none,
    but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
    9 Fools mock at making amends for sin,
    but goodwill is found among the upright. [/QUOTE]
    I can trully say, from the bottom of my heart, those words mean nothing to me.

  • #189328

    evogel
    Member

    Does anyone even watch the simpsons anymore?

  • #189329

    evogel
    Member

    Then I can honestly say form the bottom of my heart you in deep sh*t

  • #189330

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Then I can honestly say form the bottom of my heart you in deep sh*t[/QUOTE] Well duh, most of us have it up to our ears at this point for this topic!! Oh my freak”n ears blah blah blah….

  • #189333

    evanston52
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I am 215 pounds of solid muscle I do not need protection =)[/QUOTE]
    Congratulations. My hero!

  • #189336

    evogel
    Member

    It takes a lot of dedication and hard work ……. so I will take the congratulations …. thanks =)

  • #189339

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I am 215 pounds of solid muscle I do not need protection =)[/QUOTE]
    this makes no sense.
    1. won’t god protect you?
    2. if you get attacked isn’t that god’s will
    3. a bullet beats 215 every time

  • #189341

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]creation itself is evidence.
    [/QUOTE]
    Ah yes, the “scientific” theory of creation, that actually is auto denying. It starts with the premesis that nothing can just exist. It must be created. That’s how the chicken and the egg problem is explained, there can be no egg without a chicken, hence the chicken must have been created, by god ofcourse.
    If nothing can just exist, but must be created, then god too must have been created (and the angels and the devil, and heaven and all that stuff that existed before the universe was created) . If god was created, then he is not god, and if you make an exception to the rule for god, saying that he just existed, the whole theory falls apart. If there is one exception, why not two, or three, or several trillions?

  • #189344

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=hpeak13] 1. won’t god protect you?[/QUOTE]
    What if he’s attacked on shabbat? Does god work on shabbat?

  • #189368

    evogel
    Member

    Really .. lets act like children and troll every post.

  • #189375

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Really .. lets act like children and troll every post.[/QUOTE] Well you seem to be blazing a trail with your belief in fairytales. Onward Christian soldiers!

  • #189377

    evogel
    Member

    So what…. I don’t troll you for being an idiot…. why you troll me for being “schizo” as you claim. It is childish… time to grow up… although it is your right to come online and cry so onward childish trolling!cobrakhan52011-11-23 16:20:32

  • #189381

    evogel
    Member

    No sir you already admitted to being the troll =)

  • #189386

    Paulo
    Participant

    [QUOTE=sven]
    If nothing can just exist, but must be created, then god too must have been created (and the angels and the devil, and heaven and all that stuff that existed before the universe was created) . If god was created, then he is not god, and if you make an exception to the rule for god, saying that he just existed, the whole theory falls apart. If there is one exception, why not two, or three, or several trillions?[/QUOTE]
    This is just too much philosophy.
    Religious types know what they know and do not want to be confused by facts and logic.

  • #189390

    evogel
    Member

    Facts…… ok I will play the same card you guys do….. prove it.

  • #189397

    Well, I am what you might call “a religious type”. Let me see if I can tackle this one.
    We, humans, opt to conceive of even superior men from advanced civilizations as gods. This is a very common theme in history. If we run into an advanced alien civilization, chances are we are going to look up to them and dietize them. This is a diminishing tendency for we have (most of us) passed beyond mythical tendencies and are more open to looking into rational and scientific explanations.
    It is important to understand that if we fall into the trap of calling any possible being more advanced then us – god, then deep confusion arises. Even a mighty god capable of boiling oceans, overthrowing nations, transforming matter, and ordaining life on earth would look very provincial and pedestrian when put in cosmic perspective.
    I conceive of God as the personality aspect of the First Source and Center, the only Uncaused Cause. The source of all there is and more.
    So, let me postulate three levels of reality (paraphrased):
    Finite -characterized by creature life and limitations. We, as finite beings are projected in space and evolved in time.
    Absonite-beings and reality that simply are, they have never been created.
    Absolute – timeless and spaceless reality. Utterly beyond our present conceptual capacity.
    God, the First Cause and Center would exist on all levels, and that there is a fair possiblity that many of the beings (it would be too presumptuios to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the universe) that exist we would be tempted to call “god”, but that would be an error.
    [QUOTE=cardi] [QUOTE=sven]
    If nothing can just exist, but must be created, then god too must have been created (and the angels and the devil, and heaven and all that stuff that existed before the universe was created) . If god was created, then he is not god, and if you make an exception to the rule for god, saying that he just existed, the whole theory falls apart. If there is one exception, why not two, or three, or several trillions?[/QUOTE]
    This is just too much philosophy.
    Religious types know what they know and do not want to be confused by facts and logic. [/QUOTE]

  • #189399

    trebroN
    Member

    OK, lissen up all ye doubting gringoes and unbelievers: cease this blasphemy against Me, or verily will I smite forthwith the whole sorry-ass lot of you and all your miserable spawn.
    – doG

  • #189401

    Great, now Son of Sam has joined the discussion…

  • #189402

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cardi] [QUOTE=sven]
    This is just too much philosophy.
    Religious types know what they know and do not want to be confused by facts and logic. [/QUOTE]
    Here a similar argument applies. If we assume the existence of god, the we must also assume that he gave us (except blondes) brains and the capability of rational thinking and applying logic. We must then also assume that he gave us all this for a reason, e.i. Recognize facts and apply logic.

  • #189404

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    God, the First Cause and Center would exist on all levels, and that there is a fair possiblity that many of the beings (it would be too presumptuios to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the universe) that exist we would be tempted to call “god”, but that would [/QUOTE]
    If we don’t consider god as the creator, he is useless. The first cause being simply the existence of the universe. If we dont assume that the universe was created by god, what purpose does he serve.
    If god created more that one intelligent life form, what purpose does he serve us, and where would we stand in relation to the other intelligent life forms?
    I truly understand your first causes existence. I just don’t see any purpose for it to be god.

  • #189406

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Great, now Son of Sam has joined the discussion… [/QUOTE]
    Son of Sam (David Berkowitz) is a born again cristian, so he is forgiven, right?

  • #189407

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG] Great, now Son of Sam has joined the discussion… [/QUOTE]
    Son of Sam (David Berkowitz) is a born again cristian, so he is forgiven, right?[/QUOTE]
    Not if he goes into a relapse…

  • #189409

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Boris, the whole idea of religion and the bible is to show that we are different, and to give us a purpose in life. If for one moment we assume that science is right, and all matter consists of pure energy, and if we call that pure energy god, then we also have to agree on the uselessness of the biblical god. As you say, we cannot assume we are the only intelligent life form. That alone takes away the foundation of genesis that tells us that we are special, made in the image of god. If there are other, similartly intelligent life forms, we just arent special.

  • #189410

    [QUOTE=sven]If we don’t consider god as the creator, he is useless. The first cause being simply the existence of the universe. If we dont assume that the universe was created by god, what purpose does he serve.[/QUOTE]
    Well, take a look at the universe, such an enormous place with so much going on. Are you sure there is no place or role for God?
    Besides, I see creation as an ongoing affair and not a one time past event.
    [QUOTE=sven]If god created more that one intelligent life form, what purpose does he serve us, and where would we stand in relation to the other intelligent life forms?[/QUOTE]
    Looking at the universe with its stupendous dimensions and abandance of inanimate matter, it is possible to perceive the preciousness and differential of life forms (as contrasted to the inanimate energy and matter) and specially of the intelligent life forms. For no star, canstellation or galaxy can have personal and intelligent relationship with God.
    I think that we, intelligent life forms, are created in the “image of God” endowed with rational mind and relativly sovereign will.
    I believe that there are other intelligent life forms in the universe. My belief system embraces not only the universal brotherhood of men predicated on the universal fatherhood of God, but the universal brotherhood of intelligent beings, predicated on the same concept of the universal fatherhood of God.
    [QUOTE=sven]I truly understand your first causes existence. I just don’t see any purpose for it to be god.[/QUOTE]
    It opens up some pretty amazing possibilities mainly the opportunity of developing a personal relationship with such a being, looking beyond the mere end of the material existence, and a tintillating possibility of learning more about the universe and reality.

  • #189414

    scotty447
    Member

    I think I look at it in a lot simpler way. When doctor tells one person he has some terminal sickness he become a believer of god… When doctor tells someone his only kid died because of one terminal sickness/accident he become a non believer of god… Concept of god is soo much related to hopeness.

  • #189415

    [QUOTE=sven] Boris, the whole idea of religion and the bible is to show that we are different, and to give us a purpose in life. [/QUOTE]
    It is not just the bible or the religions. We know that we are different. We evolved from animals, but we are so much more then mere animals.
    Our very intelligence grants us a poppury of purposes of life. Religion, more correctly faith, for I see faith as the personal relationship with God while religion is loaded with social, psychological, political, and other aspects, merely give us more open-ended and IMO more fascinating purposes.
    [QUOTE=sven]If for one moment we assume that science is right, and all matter consists of pure energy, and if we call that pure energy god, then we also have to agree on the uselessness of the biblical god. [/QUOTE]
    Let me start that I see the conflict between faith and science as an unneccessary and detrimental. It would be too much to ask the sciences to come up with definitive and arbitrary definition of reality and its origins. Science will continue to open up newer and more fascinating vistas of the reality and the misteries of matter and energy.
    Faith, if defined as personal relationship with God, is not threatened by facts, moreover, it earns for facts, for the facts open up to us previously unknown and unfathomable aspects of reality.
    Faith merely allows me to feel at home at the universe. I am thrilled by its imensity and wastness. I am not threatened by it, for for me, as one of the most beautiful Bible quotes says, “The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.”
    [QUOTE=sven]As you say, we cannot assume we are the only intelligent life form. That alone takes away the foundation of genesis that tells us that we are special, made in the image of god. If there are other, similartly intelligent life forms, we just arent special.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, and no. First of all, Genesis is a creation myth. It might have some sprinkles of truth in there, but it is what it is, a myth.
    I think the truth is in the claim that we are “made in the image of God”. Not physical image, mind you. But we have something, each and every one of us (and possibly other intelligent life forms), that no aggregation of inanimate matter or energy has. That alone makes me, you and every other such endowed being very special.

  • #189416

    I think that this is a tad too simple. At least in my case, I went from being born and bred atheist to being a firm believer in God without falling pray to any kind of serious disease (I think) mostly through rational and logical study.
    I don’t know what my reaction would be to a terrible predicament of losing a child. I truly hope I never will suffer such a tragedy. Yet, at this point, I think that there is nothing that could happen that would rationally destroy my faith. Of course, I can get brain damaged by accident or through some disease, but it wouldn’t be a rational repudiation of faith on my part.
    [QUOTE=ganeshrkara]   I think I look at it in a lot simpler way.

    When doctor tells one person he has¬†some terminal sickness he become a believer of god…

    ¬†When doctor tells someone his only kid died because of one terminal sickness/accident he become a non believer of god…

     

      Concept of god is soo much related  to hopeness.

     

    [/QUOTE]

  • #189418

    evogel
    Member

    the idea of evolution is complete bogus….. again where is the facts….. if we had evolved from animals then we would see the obvious transitions…. or did we wake up one morning and an ape suddenly became a man?
    I have evidence of God…. the evidence for evolution would be quite the contrary and in fact contradicts itself.
    Evidence of God = I have seen miracles and can speak in tongues….. if you believe me or not it does not change the truth =)You can not devoid someones experience because it is the testimony that matters. You can not tell me you have witnessed an ape transform into a human. Nor can you tell me how to have that experience. I can tell you I have met God and I can tell you how to do it. And scientology is just more crap.

  • #189422

    hoganti
    Member

    the idea of evolution is complete bogus….. again where is the facts….. if we had evolved from animals then we would see the obvious transitions…. or did we wake up one morning and an ape suddenly became a man?
    thank you Sarah Palin

  • #189423

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] the idea of evolution is complete bogus….. again where is the facts….. if we had evolved from animals then we would see the obvious transitions…. or did we wake up one morning and an ape suddenly became a man? [/QUOTE]
    According to the current scientific interpretation of fossils, ape and man shared a common ancestor a few million years ago. As far as the evidence is concerned, I can’t study anthropology or biology for you.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I have evidence of God…. the evidence for evolution would be quite the contrary and in fact contradicts itself.[/QUOTE]
    How so?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Evidence of God = I have seen miracles and can speak in tongues….. if you believe me or not it does not change the truth =)You can not devoid someones experience because it is the testimony that matters. You can not tell me you have witnessed an ape transform into a human. Nor can you tell me how to have that experience. I can tell you I have met God and I can tell you how to do it. And scientology is just more crap. [/QUOTE]
    Unfortunatly, there are such things as self-delusion aside from numerous psychological and neurological disturbances that undermine the validity of even sincere testimony. Needless to say that there are such things as false testimonies out there.
    It might be true all that you say, but so far nobody is convinced here. Something is missing…

  • #189425

    evogel
    Member

    So repent….. thats what is missing

  • #189426

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] So repent….. thats what is missing[/QUOTE]
    I have repented already and the treatment received was most gracious and inspiring, but I am not talking about myself.

  • #189434

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] the idea of evolution is complete bogus….. again where is the facts….. if we had evolved from animals then we would see the obvious transitions…. or did we wake up one morning and an ape suddenly became a man?
    I have evidence of God…. the evidence for evolution would be quite the contrary and in fact contradicts itself.
    Evidence of God = I have seen miracles and can speak in tongues….. if you believe me or not it does not change the truth =)You can not devoid someones experience because it is the testimony that matters. You can not tell me you have witnessed an ape transform into a human. Nor can you tell me how to have that experience. I can tell you I have met God and I can tell you how to do it. And scientology is just more crap. [/QUOTE]
    An earlier post of yours starts to make so much sense:
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] i think i may have brain damage.
    [/QUOTE]
    http://www.gringoes.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13366&KW=&PID=155935#155935
    You may be happy to know you’ll fit right in with the iurd crowd!
    While looking for love on Brazilcupid, don’t forget to look for women that state “evangelical” as their religion. You might end up preaching together on some square, somewhere in Brazil..sven2011-11-24 04:04:43

  • #189435

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Boris, by giving some god like property to energy and matter, and by stating that creation is an on going process, you make god an entity with flaws, one that learns from its mistakes. As such, god would, as Stephen Hawkins says, not be disproven, but without a purpose.
    When I have to choose between a flawed god and science to feel at home in the universe, I choose science.

  • #189437

    Sven, I think I am being misunderstood here. I do not assign god properties to energy or matter. At most I would presume that God originates reality including space, time, energy as well as plays some part in organization and manipulation of energy and matter. Yet, even such stupendous activity would be just a small part of overall God’s activities.
    I think you picked up on the experiential aspect of God, which is temporal, imperfect, and evolving. Me thinks that there is existential side to God which is perfect and changeless.
    I do not understand the need to choose between science and God, but if it rocks your boat, so be it. Science is after all is just a method, an activity.

  • #189449

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=ganeshrkara]   I think I look at it in a lot simpler way.

    When doctor tells one person he has¬†some terminal sickness he become a believer of god…

    ¬†When doctor tells someone his only kid died because of one terminal sickness/accident he become a non believer of god…[/QUOTE]
    I’m sure that when I made up my mind, I was around 10, and in Catholic school, that I did not have a child that had a terminal illness.
    I know people that where believers and had a child of 6 die of leukemia, they remained faithful believers
    I know people that died of terminal illness and remained steadfast atheists.
    I think your logic is a bit too simple.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] the idea of evolution is complete bogus….. again where is the facts….. [/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] if we had evolved from animals then we would see the obvious transitions…. or did we wake up one morning and an ape suddenly became a man? [/QUOTE]
    Here you can find all info on micro evolution and macro evolution and the mechanisms involved.
    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I have evidence of God…. the evidence for evolution would be quite the contrary and in fact contradicts itself.[/QUOTE]
    I have shown you a picture of a long gone species, show me a picture of your god. A fossilized footstep will do.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    Evidence of God = I have seen miracles and can speak in tongues….. [/QUOTE]
    Me too, I speak in tongues when I drink too much. I bet that if I take LSD I can see miracles too.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    if you believe me or not it does not change the truth =)
    [/QUOTE]
    Here we finally agree, unless you belief that your belief is the truth, then we disagree.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    You can not devoid someones experience because it is the testimony that matters. [/QUOTE]
    So avoid the uncleanliness of idols and avoid false statement.” [Quran 22:30]
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    And scientology is just more crap. [/QUOTE]
    Now that REALLY is a point we agree on
  • #189454

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] At most I would presume that God originates reality including space, time, energy [/QUOTE]
    At some time in my life, I started to call that nature.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    as well as plays some part in organization and manipulation of energy and matter. Yet, even such stupendous activity would be just a small part of overall God’s activities.
    I think you picked up on the experiential aspect of God, which is temporal, imperfect, and evolving. Me thinks that there is existential side to God which is perfect and changeless.[/QUOTE]
    How can temporal, imperfect and evolving on one side and perfect and changeless on the other, and how would there be a use for a god.
    The essence of faith, at least for the muslim, cristian and jewish believe system is perfect creation, by a single perfect god.
    Even under the intelligent design idea, the designer (typically the christian god with the exclusion of all others), the designer is perfect, especially as he supposedly created a lot of unnecessary things and beings just to show off.
    Obviously, intelligent design raises the same question I have already raised. Who designed the designer? The designer that designed everything in the universe must be so complex, that under the thesis of intelligent design he too must have been designed as: “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause”
    http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign
    Of course, 40% of americans still believe in either creation or intelligent design.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I do not understand the need to choose between science and God, but if it rocks your boat, so be it. Science is after all is just a method, an activity.[/QUOTE]
    It’s not so much of a choice it’s an option. I fail to see a reason to believe in something that makes no sense.

  • #189461

    evogel
    Member

    You can’t reason your way out of a sinful fallen condition.

  • #189462

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]You can’t reason your way out of a sinful fallen condition.[/QUOTE] It’s religious freaks like you which is one of the main reasons the USA is so fak’d up at the moment. Amen.

  • #189465

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] It’s religious freaks like you which is one of the main reasons the USA is so fak’d up at the moment. Amen.[/QUOTE]
    Sarah Palins of the World, Unite and take over

  • #189480

    [QUOTE=sven] At some time in my life, I started to call that nature.[/QUOTE]
    You can call it what you want. You could call it AOISDFNF*E#&F_#(#U for all I care. Conceptually though, there is no reason to deny the possibility of the existence of mind and reason that far surpass our humble level. Your option to defer to nature is devoid of personality possibility, mine incorporates it.
    [QUOTE=sven]How can temporal, imperfect and evolving on one side and perfect and changeless on the other, and how would there be a use for a god.[/QUOTE]
    Just like you could be competent and almost perfect in some aspects of your life and still learning and erring in others. It is very crude a comparison, but it communicates the point. Let me refrase that, how could there be use of nature?
    [QUOTE=sven]The essence of faith, at least for the muslim, cristian and jewish believe system is perfect creation, by a single perfect god.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, this is the consequence of embracing genesis as the fundamental myth creation. There are other myths out there and pre-monotheistic religions and cults are and have been very open to the idea of the evolution.
    [QUOTE=sven]Even under the intelligent design idea, the designer (typically the christian god with the exclusion of all others), the designer is perfect, especially as he supposedly created a lot of unnecessary things and beings just to show off.[/QUOTE]
    Well, that is just wrong.
    [QUOTE=sven]Obviously, intelligent design raises the same question I have already raised. Who designed the designer?[/QUOTE]
    If we trace the chain of designers to the Original Cause, we could embrace the possibility that the first one has sprung from Infinity, level of reality that our minds can’t penetrate.
    [QUOTE=sven]The designer that designed everything in the universe must be so complex, that under the thesis of intelligent design he too must have been designed as: “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause”
    http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutIntelligentDesign
    Of course, 40% of americans still believe in either creation or intelligent design.[/QUOTE]
    True, the level of complexity is mind boggling that is to our minds. My guess is that there are superior minds that are rather more adept in reality perception and understanding.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    It’s not so much of a choice it’s an option. I fail to see a reason to believe in something that makes no sense.[/QUOTE]
    Makes no sense how?

  • #189482

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    If we trace the chain of designers to the Original Cause, we could embrace the possibility that the first one has sprung from Infinity, level of reality that our minds can’t penetrate.[/QUOTE]
    If the first designer sprung from infinity, then why have a designer. The universe itself can have sprung from infinity. And if that is so, there is no need for a god.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    True, the level of complexity is mind boggling that is to our minds. My guess is that there are superior minds that are rather more adept in reality perception and understanding.
    [/QUOTE]
    For me it’s just one of the things that undermines the theory.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Makes no sense how?[/QUOTE]
    To believe in creation of intelligent design, as both theories are much more flawed than the theory that energy and matter always existed, especially since both seem to make an exception to the rule, when it comes to the creator/architect.
    It makes much more sence that we are just a part of a cosmic cycle of universes imploding and then again exploding creating a new universe, just as ours was created just 3 billion or so years ago. No god, no architect, no creation, no design, just one huge explosion (after the other).

  • #189486

    [QUOTE=sven] If the first designer sprung from infinity, then why have a designer. The universe itself can have sprung from infinity. And if that is so, there is no need for a god.[/QUOTE]
    Then the question is what is infinity? Besides, the universe as we know it is probably just infinistimental part of the whole picture. There is much more to the story…
    I think the difference in our approaches in this case is that you are content to accept that food originates in supermarkets and I wish to trace down its origin and nature, for I have a vogue suspicion that there is more to the story then nice packaging and attractive price.
    [QUOTE=sven]To believe in creation of intelligent design, as both theories are much more flawed than the theory that energy and matter always existed, especially since both seem to make an exception to the rule, when it comes to the creator/architect.[/QUOTE]
    If your faith requires the belief that energy and matter have always existed, so be it….
    [QUOTE=sven]It makes much more sence that we are just a part of a cosmic cycle of universes imploding and then again exploding creating a new universe, just as ours was created just 3 billion or so years ago. No god, no architect, no creation, no design, just one huge explosion (after the other).[/QUOTE]
    Right. I think that according to the current scientific consensus, the universe is over 14 billion years old.
    Now, to believe that things just happen by chance is against my religion and is plain illogical, irrational, and against all the evidence. Would you in your write mind believe that to throw in a bunch of matter, some chemical components and infusing some energy… BOOOM! Out comes out a Boeing 747 fully functional and in perfect order. Yet, many things in reality make even the most complex mechanisms and sistems designed and created by us pale in comparison.
    I think there is much more to the story, and to exclude possibility of design is to succumb to the fanatical materialism.

  • #189488

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Right. I think that according to the current scientific consensus, the universe is over 14 billion years old.
    [/QUOTE]
    3 billion, 14 billion, whatever. I’ll just put in my 85.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Would you in your write mind believe that to throw in a bunch of matter, some chemical components and infusing some energy… BOOOM! Out comes out a Boeing 747 fully functional and in perfect order.[/QUOTE]
    Evolution my friend. The Wight Brothers (or was it Santos Dumont), Anthony Fokker, the Spitfire, the Lockeed Constellation…..
    And then the 747.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Yet, many things in reality make even the most complex mechanisms and sistems designed and created by us pale in comparison.[/QUOTE]
    And that’s proof of design?
    On earth, everything started with simple, single cell life that evolved.
    Abiogenesis is still in it’s early stages.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I think there is much more to the story, and to exclude possibility of design is to succumb to the fanatical materialism.[/QUOTE]
    No materialism involved. I have not much use for material objects, I prefer to just enjoy my ride.

  • #189489

    evogel
    Member

    Evolution?… I want to see the half man / half ape? Then maybe I can see why you would believe such nonsense.
    Fortaleza newf … not sure what your talking about …. maybe you could be more specific =)
    cobrakhan52011-11-24 13:21:42

  • #189493

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Fortaleza Newf you and I should get together when I come to Brazil and we can have a little talk =) [/QUOTE] Look I have no problem with religion or other peoples religious views. But when religion clouds peoples judgement to the point that they can only see their point of view and not accept any alternative as it is not in line with their religious views then this is where I have problems with it. No problem to meet if you want. I suggest we rendezvous at Centaurus. Big%20smile

  • #189494

    evogel
    Member

    Well you may want to refrain from calling people religious freaks cause you are doing the exact thing you hate? In example intolerance….

  • #189496

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Well you may want to refrain from calling people religious freaks cause you are doing the exact thing you hate? In example intolerance….
    [/QUOTE] Well lets see, you professed your religious views initially. Ok. They were challenged. Ok. Since, you have spend countless pages the last few days reciting verses from the bible, etc. to people who are not religious in an attempt to try to bring them over to your way of thinking. They aren’t buying it and basically now you have indicated they are in ‘trouble’as you can’t imagine another way of thinking which many people on here have. So this would classify you as a religious freak sorry to say. I have no intolerance to religion but if somebody is trying to ram a bible down my throat continually when I would rather it be a pint of guiness well then I got problems with that. I suggest you quick gabbing on about jaysus so much and replace the ole bible with a nice cool beeerrrrr like many of us here! LOLLOL

  • #189521

    evogel
    Member

    You have a choice to read these posts or not, and if you want to respond or not. I am stating facts… just cause you don’t like it …. I guess I better not tell people how they can get freed from their sin? Hmm i think I will continue on my path… my life is very blessed.

  • #189524

    [QUOTE=sven]
    3 billion, 14 billion, whatever. I’ll just put in my 85.[/QUOTE]
    You are waaaaay too modest. I, for example, want to live forever.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Evolution my friend. The Wight Brothers (or was it Santos Dumont), Anthony Fokker, the Spitfire, the Lockeed Constellation…..
    And then the 747.
    [/QUOTE]
    Exactly my point! Evolution, but not by blind chance. Intelligently guided and fostered evolution. Least you wish to build a plane without designing it first
    [QUOTE=sven]
    And that’s proof of design?
    On earth, everything started with simple, single cell life that evolved.
    Abiogenesis is still in it’s early stages.
    [/QUOTE]
    The devil is in the details, my friend, the devil is in details. If you go beyond cliches and actually look into the matter, that little simple cell turns out to be far more complex then, for example, anything that has been conceived and created by human mind up until this point.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    No materialism involved. I have not much use for material objects, I prefer to just enjoy my ride.[/QUOTE]
    …. but your ride is material, right? or is it wholly intellectual?

  • #189526

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]

    You have a choice to read these posts or not, and if you want to respond or not. I am stating facts… just cause you don’t like it …. I guess I better not tell people how they can get freed from their sin? Hmm i think I will continue on my path… my life is very blessed.

    [/QUOTE]

    I am stating facts

    Actually, no you are quoting pages of a very old book- not facts

  • #189550

    815
    Member

    This is semi on topic. I know Christianity is utter bull sh*t and think it is rather silly to believe in it in this day in age with the ready access of information.
    With that said, people say that I should “respect peoples’ religious beliefs”.
    WHY?!?!?!
    Why should I respect nonsense. Take emotion out of this question but should I “respect holocausts deniers?” It’s a belief, isn’t it? But no one in their right mind (except holocaust deniers) would dare say to respect the beliefs of holocaust deniers.
    Paulistano USA2011-11-25 08:05:55

  • #189551

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=Paulistano USA]This is semi on topic. I know Christianity is utter bull sh*t and think it is rather silly to believe in it in this day in age with the ready access of information.
    With that said people say I should “respect peoples’ religious views”.
    WHY?!?!?!
    Why should I respect nonsense. Take emotion out of this question but should I “respect holocausts deniers?” It’s a belief, isn’t it? But no one in their right mind (except holocaust deniers) would dare say to respect the beliefs of holocaust deniers.
    [/QUOTE]
    I respect their belief because it doesn’t really bother me (except when rammed down my throat). I have many beliefs/opinions that differ from other folks’ opinions/beliefs and that is what makes the world such an interesting place.
    at the end of the day I gotta think about what is worth getting worked up about and what to just let go…

  • #189556

    815
    Member

    HPeak,
    I FULLY agree. I don’t go around insulting people for their religion and I even keep my mouth welded shut if I am around an ex junkie who uses Jesus to stay off the rock. Loving Jesus is better than giving $5 handies in a public bathroom for a fix.
    Maybe I am unclear what people mean by respect in this case. In my head, I think it the beliefs are simply absurd. I have no respect for these beliefs. Maybe people just mean to keep these feeling to myself? Is that what they mean by respect?
    How can two opposing religious people respect one another’s beliefs? One surely believes the other is going to hell, right? That is a lack of respect.

  • #189559

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Paulistano USA]
    How can two opposing religious people respect one another’s beliefs? [/QUOTE]
    Mostly they can’t. They have difficulty to respect others that live outside their morals.
    Look at Silas Malafaya and his comments on the new law against gay bashing. He says the law inhibits his right to free speech, as he should be free to insult gay people.
    Na verdade, o PL-122 é contra o artigo 5¬∫ da Constituição, porque o projeto de lei quer criminalizar a opinião, bem como a liberdade religiosa

  • #189561

    evogel
    Member

    You do not have to respect it, you do not have to believe it, still does not make it any less truth.
    Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
    If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
    All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.cobrakhan52011-11-25 09:17:48

  • #189562

    evogel
    Member

    The Holy Spirit is awesome and ….. remember this… the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ….. be very careful where you go with this friends.

  • #189564

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]The Holy Spirit is awesome and ….. remember this… the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ….. be very careful where you go with this friends.[/QUOTE]
    you are quite the troll. moved on from your postings looking for drugs on the india forum to becoming a forum evangelical…well done Sean Powell, well done

  • #189565

    evogel
    Member

    I am a child of the living God!! and proud of itcobrakhan52011-11-25 09:30:51

  • #189567

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I am a child of the living God!! and proud of it[/QUOTE] As long as this child stays in the trailer park I am satisified.

  • #189568

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    So, if I write a book in which I state “I am the way and the truth and the life” than this becomes true?

    John 3:13
    No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
    Luke 14:26
    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters‚Äîyes, even their own life‚Äîsuch a person cannot be my disciple.”
    Luke 14:33
    “In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”
    Luke 18:18-22
    “A certain ruler asked him, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everythingyou have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
    Matthew 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Mathew 18:3
    And he said: Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
    I know you became a little child again, from your postings, But did you give everything away? Do you hate your parents? Did you descend from heaven? Do you live by the 613 laws of the mitzvot? Abiding by the mitzvot, do you do animal sacrifices?
    If the answer to one of those questions is no, then there is no heaven for you.

  • #189572

    evogel
    Member

    You have to see that he made all these statements to prepare them for what is to come. It is impossible to do all these things… this was before he died on the cross and took on the sins of the world. Yes all this is true and is impossible for us to fulfill and this is why Jesus had to die on the cross. The Holy Spirit comes to help us and only happened after Jesus died and rose from the grave which is exactly what happens to those who receive the Holy Spirit.cobrakhan52011-11-25 10:41:11

  • #189573

    Speaking of the alleged impartiality and “purity” of science, sven, what do you make of this?:
    ClimateGate 2.0

  • #189574

    sven,
    One of the benefits of the contact with what cobrakhan5 calls “holy spirit” is developing of innate capacity to distinguish between truth and error, as well as the capacity to recognize distortions. To fully benefit from such a gift, one needs to adapt intellectual honesty, patience, and tolerance as the guideposts of the intellectual attitude until such traits also become innate.
    Techings of Jesus had been heard by many people and, undoubtedly, there is a fair chance that he is being misunderstood, misquoted, and misrepresented even in the Bible.
    The Master’s position on the critical assesment of information and the temptation to blindly accept things as true is well reflected in his famous quote:
    “Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible”
    While his position on the possibility of salvation and eternal life, IMO, is most perfectly expressed by “Whosoever will, Let Him Come”.
    The way I understand it is that there is simply nothing in the universe that can stand between a human being making a positive choice to transcend one’s existence by a leap of faith and eternal salvation.
    [QUOTE=sven] So, if I write a book in which I state “I am the way and the truth and the life” than this becomes true?

    John 3:13
    No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man
    Luke 14:26
    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters‚Äîyes, even their own life‚Äîsuch a person cannot be my disciple.”
    Luke 14:33
    “In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”
    Luke 18:18-22
    “A certain ruler asked him, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
    When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everythingyou have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
    Matthew 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
    Mathew 18:3
    And he said: Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
    I know you became a little child again, from your postings, But did you give everything away? Do you hate your parents? Did you descend from heaven? Do you live by the 613 laws of the mitzvot? Abiding by the mitzvot, do you do animal sacrifices?
    If the answer to one of those questions is no, then there is no heaven for you.
    [/QUOTE]

  • #189575

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Just as one can use the bible for your own particular agenda, can one use science for one’s own political agenda.

  • #189576

    [QUOTE=sven] Just as one can use the bible for your own particular agenda, can one use science for one’s own political agenda.[/QUOTE]
    True. It is a shame. Such behaviour should be relegated to the domain of the unacceptable and routed out both in science and religion.

  • #189577

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] sven,
    One of the benefits of the contact with what cobrakhan5 calls “holy spirit” is developing of innate capacity to distinguish between truth and error, as well as the capacity to recognize distortions. To fully benefit from such a gift, one needs to adapt intellectual honesty, patience, and tolerance as the guideposts of the intellectual attitude until such traits also become innate.
    Techings of Jesus had been heard by many people and, undoubtedly, there is a fair chance that he is being misunderstood, misquoted, and misrepresented even in the Bible.
    The Master’s position on the critical assesment of information and the temptation to blindly accept things as true is well reflected in his famous quote:
    “Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible”
    While his position on the possibility of salvation and eternal life, IMO, is most perfectly expressed by “Whosoever will, Let Him Come”.
    The way I understand it is that there is simply nothing in the universe that can stand between a human being making a positive choice to transcend one’s existence by a leap of faith and eternal salvation.
    [/QUOTE]
    You obviously missed the point. Our dear cobra keeps on quoting scripture and calling them “truth”, as a simple response, trying to show the error of his ways, I post scripture that seem to undermine the same point.
    I will be the last to take the bible literally.
    How can one take something literal when several versions exist in which the text is completely different.

  • #189578

    evogel
    Member

    completely different? please show me

  • #189579

    [QUOTE=sven] You obviously missed the point. Our dear cobra keeps on quoting scripture and calling them “truth”, as a simple response, trying to show the error of his ways, I post scripture that seem to undermine the same point.
    I will be the last to take the bible literally.
    How can one take something literal when several versions exist in which the text is completely different.[/QUOTE]
    No, actually I think I got it. BTW, I agree with your take that Bible is humanly sourced. Moreover, I’ve provided a quote by Jesus (accidentally also from the Bible) that defines his position on any human writing that could be attributed to other then human sources.
    Humans diverge in interpretation of even the most obvious events and concepts, hence many versions, some more true some less of what might’ve taken place and what was said. As an aspiring lawyer, you are probably familiar with the difficulties of getting witness testimony and psychological aspects of perception and interpretation of reality and occurances.
    Moreover, the gist of the Jesus’ teaching about the limitations placed on those who aspire to eternal life (there are none) was also provided. Put it in the list with the quotes you provided and see which one rings true.
    Searching for truth is like searching for gold. One has to process tons of dirt in order to collect a few grams of precious metal. Bible contains many a truth, and to discard it wholesale is to throw the baby out with the bath water…BorisG2011-11-25 11:29:06

  • #189580

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] completely different? please show me[/QUOTE]
    (GW)
    If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples.
    (King James)
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    (AMP)
    If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [[a]in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters–[yes] and even his own life also–he cannot be My disciple.
    (CEV)
    You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot come with me unless you love me more than you love your own life.
    You see the differences don’t you? Hate on one side, abandonment on the other, into disregard in comparission and lastly lovesven2011-11-25 11:33:57

  • #189581

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Humans diverge in interpretation of even the most obvious events and concepts, hence many versions, some more true some less of what might’ve taken place and what was said. As an inspiring lawyer, you are probably familiar with the difficulties of getting witness testimony and psychological aspects of perception and interpretation of reality and occurances. [/QUOTE]
    Which was exactly my point. You can’t take a single bible passage and consider it truth, it has to be read in the context of the whole bible.
    When the bible speaks of hating your parents, you obviously has to see that in relation to the command to respect your parents.
    The obvious interpretation would be that one’s love for jesus has to be more important than the love for your parents.

  • #189582

    evogel
    Member

    But you can’t even fully understand the scriptures if you have no connection to God. You can not fully comprehend the message of love.
    The words may be different but the message is the same… the commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind. If you are putting other things before God how can you fully love God?
    And miraculously when people are able to do this…. that love flows into the rest of their relationships.cobrakhan52011-11-25 11:41:15

  • #189583

    [QUOTE=sven]
    Which was exactly my point. You can’t take a single bible passage and consider it truth, it has to be read in the context of the whole bible.
    [/QUOTE]
    Here is the problem, you can’t really interpret biblical or any statements within any specific predefined context. In the case of biblical quotations, the very composite nature of the Bible spread over thousands of years, hundreds of tribes and nations, authored by thousands of human minds (inspired and not) and touching on the multitude of the subjects makes it utterly unsuitable as an adequate context for interpretation.
    I am not even going to go into the problems of translations that alone are responsible for immesurable confusion and numerous misinterpretations.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    When the bible speaks of hating your parents, you obviously has to see that in relation to the command to respect your parents.
    [/QUOTE]
    It is possible to hate and respect one’s parents… but it is not the point.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    The obvious interpretation would be that one’s love for jesus has to be more important than the love for your parents.[/QUOTE]
    To be fair to Jesus, my sources state that apostles’ and disciples’ families had been adequatly provided for when their family heads had been called to perform spiritual duties.
    Still, higher priority had to be given to the task of spiritual recuperation of the human kind vs. blind allegiance to one’s family.
    One would look ascance at a man who would place the love of his parents over the love of his children. It is all about priorities.BorisG2011-11-25 11:51:40

  • #189584

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] But you can’t even fully understand the scriptures if you have no connection to God. You can not fully comprehend the message of love.
    The words may be different but the message is the same… the commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind. If you are putting other things before God how can you fully love God?
    And miraculously when people are able to do this…. that love flows into the rest of their relationships.[/QUOTE]
    cobrakhan5,
    finally a post I can wholeheartedly agree with you on. Yet, putting in practice the message of love is far more difficult then merely understanding it… Well, practice makes perfect…

  • #189585

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Here is the problem, you can’t really interpret biblical or any statements within any specific predefined context. In the case of biblical quotations, the very composite nature of the Bible spread over thousands of years, hundreds of tribes and nations, authored by thousands of human minds (inspired and not) and touching on the multitude of the subjects makes it utterly unsuitable as an adequate context for interpretation.
    I am not even going to go into the problems of translations that alone are responsible for immesurable confusion and numerous misinterpretations.
    [/QUOTE]
    But still, you can’t just take 1 biblical passage and pretend that it is “truth”.

  • #189586

    evogel
    Member

    how can you say if it is truth or not if you have never even tried? To you it is nothing because you have not the experience. I know them to be truth because I have the experience.

  • #189587

    [QUOTE=sven] But still, you can’t just take 1 biblical passage and pretend that it is “truth”.[/QUOTE]
    Truth is vast and living. But I think it is possible to distinguish some of the Biblical statements as truth-representative, or at least some aspect of the truth.
    There are statements in the Bible that I think can take such an authoritative position. Bible contains much of humanly evolved wisdom and factual references:
    “…nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible.”
    “..And what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul?”
    And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”
    “…whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all…”
    “Judge not, that you be not judged.”
    “…first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother‚Äôs eye”
    BorisG2011-11-25 12:06:59

  • #189588

    evogel
    Member

    And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”
    Motives play a huge role in this passage.. other scripture says if you ask with wrong motives… in example selfish motives you will not receive. Which makes sense because love is not selfish.

  • #189589

    evogel
    Member

    And their is no greater love than for one man to lay down his life for another = Yeah giving of ones own life would be the ultimate sacrifice. It is what Jesus did afterall

  • #189590

    kevin owen
    Participant

    I thought jesus rose from the dead,so he didn’t really die did he?
    Then he went to sit beside god in heaven for eternity….big sacrifice!!

  • #189592

    evogel
    Member

    Ok i say we strap you to a cross…. whip you and make you unrecognizable….. and yes he died .. then as brought back to life…. that is the whole point he overcame sin and death through the power of God.cobrakhan52011-11-25 12:23:21

  • #189593

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.”
    Motives play a huge role in this passage.. other scripture says if you ask with wrong motives… in example selfish motives you will not receive. Which makes sense because love is not selfish.[/QUOTE]
    One could pay lip service and make all the right moves in order to deceive, but at the end he fools noone, much less God who knows us better then we know ourselves.

  • #189595

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] how can you say if it is truth or not if you have never even tried? To you it is nothing because you have not the experience. I know them to be truth because I have the experience.[/QUOTE]
    I have felt what I percieved to be the closeness of a higherpower/god. I have had my burning bush experience. i spent a part of my life reading meditations first thing in the morning (Around the year with Emmet Fox is great if you are into that sort of thing) i surrounded myself with people talking about the impact god has made upon their lives.
    part of me misses the reassurance that nothing really matters because god has my life in his hands. i am safe. i am saved from suffering.
    but then i looked at the f**ked up world around me and i decided that i dont believe such a diety that allows the suffering/agony that goes on in this world to be worthy of my worship. it is ok to believe in a god….maybe there is one, but he has done quite a sh*t job of taking care of his children.
    god is love they say, meh, i say he is apathetic.

  • #189599

    evogel
    Member

    I appreciate your honesty =)I would say you are not alone in these feelings. I can say that the suffering I have gone through has made my faith stronger. When times get more difficult it seems I draw closer to God and I am able to see more clearly.cobrakhan52011-11-25 14:22:45

  • #189602

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]but then i looked at the f**ked up world around me and i decided that i dont believe such a diety that allows the suffering/agony that goes on in this world to be worthy of my worship. it is ok to believe in a god….maybe there is one, but he has done quite a sh*t job of taking care of his children.god is love they say, meh, i say he is apathetic.[/QUOTE]
    I see it differently. Better understanding coming from being a parent. It has to do with the delicate balance of protecting one’s children and smoothering them with overzealous care.
    If I am to offer 100% (from my standpoint) protection to my kids I would have to put them under complete and exhaustive control, i.e. deny them the opportunity to err, to make mistakes, to learn from experience. In short, I would have to deny them the free will. I don’t. As the result, I have to put up with them getting hurt, occasionally hurting other kids, and displaying behavior that I find unnecessarily cruel and stupid. Yet, this is the price of them growing up and exercising their relativly free will. Does it make me an apathetic or cruel father?

  • #189606

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    “…nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible.”
    Agree, this seems to be true.

  • #189630

    …then you might enjoy this quotation credited to Jesus. It is not from the Bible:
    Quantity may be identified as a fact, thus becoming a scientific uniformity. Quality, being a matter of mind interpretation, represents an estimate of values, and must, therefore, remain an experience of the individual. When both science and religion become less dogmatic and more tolerant of criticism, philosophy will then begin to achieve unity in the intelligent comprehension of the universe.

  • #189634

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    I never said Jesus wasn’t a very smart man, it’s the son of god part I have my problem with.
    Cristians and others should really read up on this tolerance part.

  • #189636

    Paulo
    Participant

    Sir Arthur Eddington – Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
    But it doesn’t stop some of us coming up with the answer.
    Isn’t it 42?

  • #189639

    [QUOTE=sven] I never said Jesus wasn’t a very smart man, it’s the son of god part I have my problem with.
    Cristians and others should really read up on this tolerance part.[/QUOTE]
    They probably should. I am afraid that Jesus took it one step further declaring that actually every human being is God’s child. Of course, it is your prerogative to accept or not this relationship. But, then Jesus wasn’t Christian…

  • #189640

    [QUOTE=cardi] Sir Arthur Eddington – Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.
    But it doesn’t stop some of us coming up with the answer.
    Isn’t it 42?[/QUOTE]
    It could be that we are stranger then our most strange conception of the universe, hence the drive…

  • #189643

    toolio
    Participant

    Back to the OP’s original comment for a moment. From yesterday’s New York Times.
    “SILAS MALAFAIA‚Äôs books, which sell in the millions in Brazil, have titles like How to Defeat Satan‚Äôs Strategies and Lessons of a Winner. The Gulfstream private jet in which he flies has Favor of God, in English, inscribed on its body”
    Beats “Jesus is the secret of my success” in Portuguese on a 20-year-old beater driving down the highway, I suppose. Apparently he thinks God understands English better than Portuguese. Smile

  • #189645

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG][QUOTE=hpeak13]but then i looked at the f**ked up world around me and i decided that i dont believe such a diety that allows the suffering/agony that goes on in this world to be worthy of my worship. it is ok to believe in a god….maybe there is one, but he has done quite a sh*t job of taking care of his children.god is love they say, meh, i say he is apathetic.[/QUOTE]
    I see it differently. Better understanding coming from being a parent. It has to do with the delicate balance of protecting one’s children and smoothering them with overzealous care.
    If I am to offer 100% (from my standpoint) protection to my kids I would have to put them under complete and exhaustive control, i.e. deny them the opportunity to err, to make mistakes, to learn from experience. In short, I would have to deny them the free will. I don’t. As the result, I have to put up with them getting hurt, occasionally hurting other kids, and displaying behavior that I find unnecessarily cruel and stupid. Yet, this is the price of them growing up and exercising their relativly free will. Does it make me an apathetic or cruel father?
    [/QUOTE]
    not at all. but you would surely step in if things were going horribly badly for them. not watch them die helplessly

  • #189647

    Correct, I most surely would do my best to prevent such a tragedy.
    I am pretty sure that God does the same.
    The perspective might be different though. Technically, physical material death is one of the human inevitabilities. There are enormous variations as to when and how, but the end result is pretty much inevitable.
    Maybe from the universe perspective spiritual death is the worst possible outcome. A tragedy that that is irreversible and direct equivalent of physical death from our perspective.
    Consequently, all possible efforts are taken to prevent it while respecting the possibility of the human free will choosing not to survive.
    [QUOTE=hpeak13]
    [QUOTE=BorisG][QUOTE=hpeak13]but then i looked at the f**ked up world around me and i decided that i dont believe such a diety that allows the suffering/agony that goes on in this world to be worthy of my worship. it is ok to believe in a god….maybe there is one, but he has done quite a sh*t job of taking care of his children.god is love they say, meh, i say he is apathetic.[/QUOTE]
    I see it differently. Better understanding coming from being a parent. It has to do with the delicate balance of protecting one’s children and smoothering them with overzealous care.
    If I am to offer 100% (from my standpoint) protection to my kids I would have to put them under complete and exhaustive control, i.e. deny them the opportunity to err, to make mistakes, to learn from experience. In short, I would have to deny them the free will. I don’t. As the result, I have to put up with them getting hurt, occasionally hurting other kids, and displaying behavior that I find unnecessarily cruel and stupid. Yet, this is the price of them growing up and exercising their relativly free will. Does it make me an apathetic or cruel father?
    [/QUOTE]not at all. but you would surely step in if things were going horribly badly for them. not watch them die helplessly [/QUOTE]

  • #189649

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]Correct, I most surely would do my best to prevent such a tragedy.
    I am pretty sure that God does the same.
    The perspective might be different though. Technically, physical material death is one of the human inevitabilities. There are enormous variations as to when and how, but the end result is pretty much inevitable.
    Maybe from the universe perspective spiritual death is the worst possible outcome. A tragedy that that is irreversible and direct equivalent of physical death from our perspective.
    Consequently, all possible efforts are taken to prevent it while respecting the possibility of the human free will choosing not to survive.
    [QUOTE=hpeak13]
    [QUOTE=BorisG][QUOTE=hpeak13]but then i looked at the f**ked up world around me and i decided that i dont believe such a diety that allows the suffering/agony that goes on in this world to be worthy of my worship. it is ok to believe in a god….maybe there is one, but he has done quite a sh*t job of taking care of his children.god is love they say, meh, i say he is apathetic.[/QUOTE]
    I see it differently. Better understanding coming from being a parent. It has to do with the delicate balance of protecting one’s children and smoothering them with overzealous care.
    If I am to offer 100% (from my standpoint) protection to my kids I would have to put them under complete and exhaustive control, i.e. deny them the opportunity to err, to make mistakes, to learn from experience. In short, I would have to deny them the free will. I don’t. As the result, I have to put up with them getting hurt, occasionally hurting other kids, and displaying behavior that I find unnecessarily cruel and stupid. Yet, this is the price of them growing up and exercising their relativly free will. Does it make me an apathetic or cruel father?
    [/QUOTE]not at all. but you would surely step in if things were going horribly badly for them. not watch them die helplessly [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

    I am pretty sure that God does the same.

    I disagree. There is so much suffering in the world, that alone is proof of his lack of intervention.
    And yes we will all die, and that is the end for sure. but the suffering is unnecessary

  • #189650

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]I disagree. There is so much suffering in the world, that alone is proof of his lack of intervention.And yes we will all die, and that is the end for sure. but the suffering is unnecessary [/QUOTE]
    Well, if you want to be intellectually honest, then you can’t say that physical death is the end. This is one question that each and everyone of us would find the answer for personally at some point.
    There is terrible suffering in the world. Much of it is inflicted through our cruelty, indifference, or ignorance.
    Actually, the setup of our existence requires certain measure of pain and suffering as corrective and feedback physical and psychological mechanisms.
    One thing, for example, I would not wish on myself or any other being is the loss of the ability to feel pain. The consequences would be disastrous.

  • #189651

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG][QUOTE=hpeak13]I disagree. There is so much suffering in the world, that alone is proof of his lack of intervention.And yes we will all die, and that is the end for sure. but the suffering is unnecessary [/QUOTE]
    Well, if you want to be intellectually honest, then you can’t say that physical death is the end. This is one question that each and everyone of us would find the answer for personally at some point.
    There is terrible suffering in the world. Much of it is inflicted through our cruelty, indifference, or ignorance.
    Actually, the setup of our existence requires certain measure of pain and suffering as corrective and feedback physical and psychological mechanisms.
    One thing, for example, I would not wish on myself or any other being is the loss of the ability to feel pain. The consequences would be disastrous.[/QUOTE]
    and I go back to Africa just because it is such an easy example to use- look at the number of people there who do not have food. completely innocent people and children as well who are dying because they do not have food.
    a father that allows this to happen to his children is not one that i respect. and certainly not a god that i would worship

  • #189653

    I understand your sentiment, but I do not share it. For the simple question of fairness.
    First of all, one doesn’t need to go to Africa to find people starving and suffering. There are more then enough heart-wrenching examples in Brazil, the United States of A, and other more developed countries.
    Aside from the anachronistic tendency to call natural disasters and periodic droughts – “acts of God”, I see no reason to attribute any such tragedies to the higher power.
    People are starving and suffering primarily because of the human greed, stupidity, ignorance, and drive for power.
    Innocents suffer and die needlessly because of the human imperfections and actions.
    I believe that the spiritual protection provided by God insures possibility of the spiritual survival and rehabilitation of innocents victimized by our often willful folly.

  • #189654

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]I understand your sentiment, but I do not share it. For the simple question of fairness.
    First of all, one doesn’t need to go to Africa to find people starving and suffering. There are more then enough heart-wrenching examples in Brazil, the United States of A, and other more developed countries.
    Aside from the anachronistic tendency to call natural disasters and periodic droughts – “acts of God”, I see no reason to attribute any such tragedies to the higher power.
    People are starving and suffering primarily because of the human greed, stupidity, ignorance, and drive for power.
    Innocents suffer and die needlessly because of the human imperfections and actions.
    I believe that the spiritual protection provided by God insures possibility of the spiritual survival and rehabilitation of innocents victimized by our often willful folly.[/QUOTE]
    i do not attribute the cause to god, we can agree on that. the non intervention i do blame on him

  • #189656

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]i do not attribute the cause to god, we can agree on that. the non intervention i do blame on him[/QUOTE]
    How dramatically would the suffering and needless deaths be lessened in the world if we were to simply follow the ten commandments? or even the simple admonitions of Jesus of loving your neighboor and acting towards others as we wish them to act towards us?
    We are not willing yet or capable of taking even such simple steps capable of reducing to the absolute minimum pain and suffering in the world.
    … or do you blame God for not taking on civil police and judicial functions and powers?

  • #189661

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=hpeak13]i do not attribute the cause to god, we can agree on that. the non intervention i do blame on him[/QUOTE]
    How dramatically would the suffering and needless deaths be lessened in the world if we were to simply follow the ten commandments? or even the simple admonitions of Jesus of loving your neighboor and acting towards others as we wish them to act towards us?
    We are not willing yet or capable of taking even such simple steps capable of reducing to the absolute minimum pain and suffering in the world.
    … or do you blame God for not taking on civil police and judicial functions and powers?[/QUOTE]
    honestly, much of my life is devoid of thoughts concerning how f**ked up the world is. yes life would be a lot better if people were kind to each other, but people aren’t. and just in real life when kids aren’t playing nice/hurting each other the parent should step in yet in this case the heavenly father does nothing.
    btw, i enjoy the conversation and the fact it has not turned personal or with you remarking that i will spend the afterlife in hell
    cheersClap

  • #189663

    I think there are many reasons why things are the way they are. Things are going fine for a while and then you come across a person or a situation that just tears your heart apart and makes one question goodness of God and justice in the universe.
    I subscribe to the viewpoint that we are in what comes as close as possible to hell. We are at our playground if you wish, messing up each other with thoughtless and often heartless actions.
    I believe that we are being watched over and admonished to play fair and take care of each other, suggestions and recommendations we unfortunatly rarely follow.
    There is constant process to install more order and fairness on the playground, but it takes time and effort. There is a delicate interplay of the balance of not violating our free will with insuring constant progress in order.
    The biblical verse that would most closely describe my sentiment of assurance is “The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.”

  • #189667

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Well Boris,i’m sorry but if you want to be intellectually honest physical death is the absolute end for us as individuals.Short of pushing up daisies that is it.

    There is no after life,we have no soul,if we are lucky we have 80 years to enjoy ourselves whilst respecting those around us.
    You quote the bible but what weight should a book written by numerous authors a couple of thousand years ago be attributed.
    If religion had never been thought of and you made it up today it would have the same credibility as Harry Potter.
  • #189671

    [QUOTE=kevbo]Well Boris,i’m sorry but if you want to be intellectually honest physical death is the absolute end for us as individuals.Short of pushing up daisies that is it.

    [/QUOTE]
    kevbo, I think that neither science nor religion can give us a definitive answer. Fortunatly, each and everyone of us has a chance to experientially answer this question or not. The option that we slide back into oblivion of course would preclude conscious knowledge of survival of physical death, but that itself is the answer and the rest becomes pretty much irrelevant.
    I think that the most intellectually honest position that can be taken on this issue is agnostic. We simply don’t know until we do.
    There is no question that our physical remains would end up pushing deisies (short of cases of cremation or “burial in the sea” a la Osama bin Laden). The real question is there anything left behind? Could it be that the soul the end product of our material life on earth can survive the death of material body? The religion assures us that it can. The science has no position nor capacity to answer such a question.
    The only way to find out for sure is a posteriori.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]There is no after life,we have no soul,if we are lucky we have 80 years to enjoy ourselves whilst respecting those around us.
    How do you know?
    [QUOTE=kevbo]You quote the bible but what weight should a book written by numerous authors a couple of thousand years ago be attributed.
    If religion had never been thought of and you made it up today it would have the same credibility as Harry Potter.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thousands of time is just a blip on the face of eternity. It might appear as a long time for us, but it is nothing in comparison to the timelines involved in the reality existence.
    There is no question that there is much nonsense and error accumulated over the long-drawn evolution of the human kind. Yet, it wouldn’t be wise to discard wholesale the accumulated spiritual and practical knowledge we’ve paid such a high price for.
    Critical knowledge and analysis of the bible and other “sacred texts” brings us a lot of information and knowedge. IMO, Harry Potter is much more likely to end up with credibility on par of Iliad or Epic Of Giglamesh (although of much lower quality) then the Bible.

  • #189672

    celso
    Member

    [QUOTE=kevbo] Well Boris,i’m sorry but if you want to be intellectually honest physical death is the absolute end for us as individuals.Short of pushing up daisies that is it. There is no after life,we have no soul,if we are lucky we have 80 years to enjoy ourselves whilst respecting those around us. You quote the bible but what weight should a book written by numerous authors a couple of thousand years ago be attributed. If religion had never been thought of and you made it up today it would have the same credibility as Harry Potter. [/QUOTE] Hey, don’t pick on the Harry Potter worshipers. There are billions of them…

  • #189673

    Witches! Burn them at the stake!
    Just kidding, I would much rather burn some steak with witches, most entertaining and wise pagan fellas.

  • #189674

    kevin owen
    Participant

    We have no definitive answer because we canot be absolutely certain of anything.But there is nothing to suggest I am wrong.Faith is not something to be applauded,it is just a belief despite a lack of evidence.

    Nothing we have ever learnt can support your beliefs,nothing we know indicates cars on Pluto are made of cheese,we must just use the sense we have to support probabilities.
  • #189676

    [QUOTE=kevbo]We have no definitive answer because we canot be absolutely certain of anything.[/QUOTE]
    True, yet absolute certainty is not necessary. A possibility and probability are more then sufficient reasons.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]But there is nothing to suggest I am wrong.[/QUOTE]
    You might be right, although I wouldn’t bet on it.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Faith is not something to be applauded,it is just a belief despite a lack of evidence.

    [/QUOTE]
    I disagree here. Faith, even non-spiritual faith is absolutly necessary for human progress. Evidence is not always available due to a variety of reasons. Faith gives us direction and motivation to follow in the path we deem true.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Nothing we have ever learnt can support your beliefs,nothing we know indicates cars on Pluto are made of cheese,we must just use the sense we have to support probabilities.

    [/QUOTE]
    Well, to be fair we’d already been to the moon and had established for sure that it is not made of cheese.
    Ever since the chances of the cars on Pluto being made of cheese had fallen dramatically. It makes perfect sense for at -220 C° cheese would hardly be practical as a material for vehicle construction.BorisG2011-11-26 15:56:42

  • #189677

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Give me one example where faith is necessary.

  • #189678

    [QUOTE=kevbo]
    Give me one example where faith is necessary.[/QUOTE]
    Oh, man…. I can give you thousands. Let’s stick to the purely material issues for the sake of the argument although faith is far more practical in the mind and spiritual reality aspects.
    One of the more recent examples would be the discovery of the New World by the Cristobal Colombo acting on a belief (false) and driven by faith despite the lack of available evidence at the time.
    Or the proto-scientific theories of the Greek Atomists that could only be experientially confirmed thousands of years later.
    I am not even going to go into the tremendous role of serendipity played in the evolution of the human kind. Without faith we’d be pretty much relegated to the animal level of existence.

  • #189681

    kevin owen
    Participant

    It is not faith it is reasonable expectation.

    Columbus did not have faith the new world existed,it was reasonable to assume something existed beyond the known world,and if it didn’t it was worth having a look.That’s explorers for you.
    Greek Atomists thought…..it was not faith just a theory they could not prove.
    Did those who thought the earth was flat have faith,or is it only those who were right had faith.
    And it does make perfect sense cars are not used at -220c,there you go you are using the knowledge we have acquired over the years.Why not use your knowledge in regard all of your beliefs.
  • #189682

    kevin owen
    Participant

    With all due respect

  • #189683

    evogel
    Member

    Without Faith it is impossible to please God.
    Faith, hope and love but the greatest of these 3 is love.cobrakhan52011-11-26 16:39:32

  • #189684

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Good one!!

    Hold on, I think the power of your arguement has converted me.
  • #189685

    [QUOTE=kevbo] It is not faith it is reasonable expectation.

    [/QUOTE]
    Well, faith in a sense is a reasonable expectation.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Columbus did not have faith the new world existed,it was reasonable to assume something existed beyond the known world,and if it didn’t it was worth having a look.That’s explorers for you.
    [/QUOTE]
    Actually, Columbus wasn’t looking for the new world, he was looking for a short cut to India for purely commercial reasons , but the rest of the your statement sounds like a perfect and reasonable explanation for my faith I’d give, a little rephrased:
    “it is reasonable to assume something exists beyond the known world,and if it doesn’t it is worth having a look.That’s believers for you.”
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Greek Atomists thought…..it was not faith just a theory they could not prove.
    Did those who thought the earth was flat have faith,or is it only those who were right had faith.[/QUOTE]
    I think you are correct pointing the dichotomy of faith. There is faith that is proven to be correct to an extent and there is misdirected and misguided faith that I still think has its role in the overall scheme of things.
    My point is that each and everyone of us is much closer to proving to oneself the existence (or not) of the Deity and life beyond physical death then Greek Atomists ever were to the scientific confirmation of their theories.
    Their theory had to wait thousands of years, you, on the other hand wouldn’t have to wait a hundred years or even much less if you are not careful crossing a busy street the next time.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]And it does make perfect sense cars are not used at -220c,there you go you are using the knowledge we have acquired over the years.Why not use your knowledge in regard all of your beliefs.

    [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
    But I do, my friend. I have to agree with your point here again. Knowledge is absolutly indispensible and essential to cleansing spiritual beliefs and faith from superstition and error. I think that knowledge is of asbolutly critical role in developing an informed and robust faith.BorisG2011-11-26 16:49:42

  • #189686

    I think that without faith it is impossible to relate to God in the first place. I am a little puzzled why would you put love on the higher level then faith?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Without Faith it is impossible to please God.
    Faith, hope and love but the greatest of these 3 is love.[/QUOTE]

  • #189687

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]I think that without faith it is impossible to relate to God in the first place. I am a little puzzled why would you put love on the higher level then faith?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Without Faith it is impossible to please God.
    Faith, hope and love but the greatest of these 3 is love.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
    because he is incapable of an original thought. he is quoting an Allan Jackson song…country singer from America

  • #189688

    Neah, everybody is capable of an original thought, he just never gave himself a chance

  • #189690

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Boris,I just don’t get it.You are far from stupid(unlike some others),and yet you buy into all this religion.

    I am guessing you are from bible belt USA.Hence you are a christian.Had you been born in Iran you would almost certainly be muslim,so your faith is just an accident of geography.
    I come back to a point I made earlier if you made up religion now people would think you were mad,much the same way we think scientologists are mad.
    Reasonable expectation and faith are not the same.It is reasonable for me to expect day follows night as I have seen it a lot of times,it does not require faith.You require faith to support conclusions that have no evidence at all.
    What is the best reason you have for your faith,why should anyone believe in god(any of them).
  • #189691

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=kevbo]Boris,I just don’t get it.You are far from stupid(unlike some others),and yet you buy into all this religion.

    I am guessing you are from bible belt USA.Hence you are a christian.Had you been born in Iran you would almost certainly be muslim,so your faith is just an accident of geography.
    I come back to a point I made earlier if you made up religion now people would think you were mad,much the same way we think scientologists are mad.
    Reasonable expectation and faith are not the same.It is reasonable for me to expect day follows night as I have seen it a lot of times,it does not require faith.You require faith to support conclusions that have no evidence at all.
    What is the best reason you have for your faith,why should anyone believe in god(any of them).

    [/QUOTE]

    Had you been born in Iran you would almost certainly be muslim,so your faith is just an accident of geography.

    this.

  • #189692

    [QUOTE=kevbo] Boris,I just don’t get it.You are far from stupid(unlike some others),and yet you buy into all this religion.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thank you for the kind words, kevbo. I feel better. Yet, to be honest I perceive myself as immesurably dumb and fairly ignorant fellow. The realization of the complexity and extent of reality and the discovery of the aspect of reality which you’d term as non-existent (spiritual…) is a truly humbling experience.
    Just to be correct, I do not buy into all this religion. Critical thinking and reasoning as well as learning about the subject matter help to distinguish true and false components of many a construct including religions.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]I am guessing you are from bible belt USA.Hence you are a christian.[/QUOTE]
    Nope. I am from the former Soviet Union, born and bred former atheist… and I am not a christian.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Had you been born in Iran you would almost certainly be muslim,so your faith is just an accident of geography.
    [/QUOTE]
    Had I been born in Iran I’d be busy tending to my four wives and not concern myself with such silly subjects as philosophy, cosmology, and introspective religion….
    [QUOTE=kevbo]I come back to a point I made earlier if you made up religion now people would think you were mad,much the same way we think scientologists are mad.

    [/QUOTE]
    Religions are not made up. They are evolved or revealed or both. Scientology can package itself as a religion, but it is a pseudo-scientific cult. See, this statement alone would label me as utterly mad in the eyes of the scientologists.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]

    Reasonable expectation and faith are not the same.It is reasonable for me to expect day follows night as I have seen it a lot of times,it does not require faith.You require faith to support conclusions that have no evidence at all.
    What is the best reason you have for your faith,why should anyone believe in god(any of them).

    [/QUOTE]
    You’d be in for a surprise if the earth ever stops its (axel revolution)… I meant axis revolutions
    There is a tremendous amount of evidence of spiritual reality and of God. By its nature this evidence comes from the personal experiences of other human beings and can’t be scientifically or objectivly corraborated during our life in the flesh.
    I do not sweat it.
    God is just a word. You can say that I believe in the Higher Being and I have my reasons.
    BorisG2011-11-26 17:36:44

  • #189693

    kevin owen
    Participant

    Reasons you are not prepared to share with us.

    A born again believer,even worse.
  • #189694

    I have no secrets about my spiritual bum experience and I am not what you would call “born again”.
    It is that I made a decision to avoid labels and qualifications as limiting and distorting factors in a discussion. So, I would not mind disclosing my beleif tenets at some point.
    Meanwhile, I can give you a hint that they are very eclectic. I do not believe that any religion or school of philosophy holds monopoly on truth. I am just as willing to learn from Bertrand Russel as I am from Sir Karl Popper, George Orwell, Al-Ghazali, Jesus, and C.S. Lewis.
    I do hold Jesus as the highest authority on the religious and philosophical matters, but I am not a Christian.
    [QUOTE=kevbo]Reasons you are not prepared to share with us.

     
    A born again believer,even worse.

    [/QUOTE]

  • #189707

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    Columbus found america because, contrary to religious dogma at the time, he thought, correctly, that the world was not flat, and that, therefore, the way to the indies might be shorter this way. That’s why we call native Americans “Indians”, just an honey mistake.
    Beside the fact that there is no possible way to prove that the bible is “truth”, I trully believe that a god, ANY god would have stepped in. KIlling 200k people in a tsunami totally disproves a caring god. And the list goes on. 6 million Jews, 30 million Russians, and noone knows exactly how many Chinese. And that’s without counting Hutsis and Tutsis, Bosnians, and the list goes on and on.
    Nope, no god, unless he just doesn’t give a crap, as long as ther is soccer, carnival and beach.

  • #189713

    [QUOTE=sven] Columbus found america because, contrary to religious dogma at the time, he thought, correctly, that the world was not flat, and that, therefore, the way to the indies might be shorter this way. That’s why we call native Americans “Indians”, just an honey mistake.[/QUOTE]
    Sven, I see you subscribe to the Flat Earth Myth. Get over it, man. It is factually incorrect.
    The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper’s History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White’s History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purpose …[9″>
    [QUOTE=sven]Beside the fact that there is no possible way to prove that the bible is “truth”, I trully believe that a god, ANY god would have stepped in. KIlling 200k people in a tsunami totally disproves a caring god. And the list goes on. 6 million Jews, 30 million Russians, and noone knows exactly how many Chinese. And that’s without counting Hutsis and Tutsis, Bosnians, and the list goes on and on.[/QUOTE]
    sven, every human being past, present, and future is subject to death.
    [QUOTE=sven]Nope, no god, unless he just doesn’t give a crap, as long as ther is soccer, carnival and beach.[/QUOTE]
    This is a very weak argument…

  • #189717

    Paulo
    Participant

    Sven, I see you subscribe to the Flat Earth Myth. Get over it, man. It is factually incorrect.
    How can you say that? Can you prove it?
    You mean that idea that we are just little organisms on a spherical lump of rock floating in space. It doesn’t fit.
    I mean that we are special and have been chosen so I refuse to accept that theory.

  • #189719

    [QUOTE=cardi] Sven, I see you subscribe to the Flat Earth Myth. Get over it, man. It is factually incorrect.
    How can you say that? Can you prove it?[/QUOTE]
    cardi, Flat Earth Myth refers to the common misconception that Flat Earth theory was part of the oficial Catholic Church dogma and wide spread during the Middle Ages. Just follow the link, you can find more or less detailed description there and links to the references.
    [QUOTE=cardi]You mean that idea that we are just little organisms on a spherical lump of rock floating in space. It doesn’t fit. [/QUOTE]
    We are little organisms floating on a spherical lump of rock in space. Why doesn’t it fit?
    [QUOTE=cardi]I mean that we are special and have been chosen so I refuse to accept that theory.[/QUOTE]
    We are special and we have been chosen, but we are still little organisms floating on a spherical lump of rock in space.

  • #189720

    cardi, actually by far the most coherent and factual description of the Flat Earth Myth can be found in Umberto Eco’s Serendipities.
    He should be beyond reproach for he is a staunch atheist with 50+ years track record and one of the most recognized scientific experts on all aspects of Medieval Europe.

  • #189722

    adorasmith
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] If the church is the road to heaven, the assembleia de deus “é o pedágio”![/QUOTE]
    That is hilarious! Luckily I wasn’t sipping a coke or I’d have spewed it across my iPad (and I’m even a Christian – though not an assembleiano, com certeza).
    Boa boa boa

  • #189732

    evogel
    Member

    I have plenty of orginal thoughts I would share mine here but I have self restraint….. I prefer to take the high road.
    Love is greater than faith and hope because without love we are nothing.

  • #189733

    Self-restraint is good, much better then a restraining order How high is the high road?
    I agree with you on the importance of love, but I am do not understand why we are nothing without it.

  • #189734

    evogel
    Member

    I think it is what we all long for deep in our being. Love, acceptance, closeness, understanding, ect. ect. ect.
    Without love which includes patience, kindness, encouragement, humility, forgiveness, ect ect ect. The above would not be possible.

  • #189735

    thank you, CK, I think I got your point now.

  • #189736

    evogel
    Member

    It is cool, I can say that this is what I personally struggle with the most and some seem to have an easier time with it than others. I do think that is part of the real human struggle and can be attributed to most of the issues of human error throughout history which includes murder.

  • #189758

    adorasmith
    Member

    Wow. 42 pages later…. Kumbaya anybody?

  • #189770

    It ain’t over until it is over.

  • #189771

    adorasmith
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG]It ain’t over until it is over.[/QUOTE] Foe show!

  • #189772

    Anonymous

    42 pages, 149 posts by a religious troll.

  • #189773

    adorasmith
    Member

    [QUOTE=Twirly]42 pages, 149 posts by a religious troll.[/QUOTE] ShockedShockedShockedThumbs%20Up“like” button Catarinense2011-11-27 08:26:06

  • #189814

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Catarinense] Wow.¬† 42 pages later…. Kumbaya anybody?[/QUOTE]
    That would be the answer to the question about life, the universe and everything else.

  • #189821

    evogel
    Member

    Wow I hit on a major issue on human life and boooom
    btw ….”Kumbaya, my Lord” was first recored by an out-of-work English professor, Robert Winslow Gordon, in 1927. Gordon went on a search for black spirituals and recorded a song “Come by Here, My Lord”, sung by H. Wylie. The song was sung in Gullah on the islands of South Carolina between Charleston and Beaufort. Gullah is the creole language featured in the Uncle Remus series of Joel Chandler Harris and the Walt Disney production of “Song of the South.” “Kum by here, my Lord” in Gullah is “Kum by (h)yuh, my lawd” (see our Gullah dictionary).

  • #189824

    toolio
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Wow I hit on a major issue on human life and boooom
    btw ….”Kumbaya, my Lord” was first recored by an out-of-work English professor, Robert Winslow Gordon, in 1927. Gordon went on a search for black spirituals and recorded a song “Come by Here, My Lord”, sung by H. Wylie. The song was sung in Gullah on the islands of South Carolina between Charleston and Beaufort. Gullah is the creole language featured in the Uncle Remus series of Joel Chandler Harris and the Walt Disney production of “Song of the South.” “Kum by here, my Lord” in Gullah is “Kum by (h)yuh, my lawd” (see our Gullah dictionary).[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, anybody can read Wikipedia. You conveniently ignored the second paragraph there, which states “These facts contradict the longstanding copyright and authorship claim of Reverend Marvin V. Frey”. The matters appears to be in dispute. Not sure what it has to do with anything, but there ya go.

  • #189827

    evogel
    Member

    sometimes I can read it depends what language
    cobrakhan52011-11-27 17:11:17

  • #189842

    Hmmmmm… are you sure those are EYE(sic!) balls?

  • #189861

    Anonymous

    One suspects that of all living sentient things, only Man is aware of its own mortality. The amalgamation of ignorance with the arrogance of self-importance can, and does, induce a fear of death and fear of the unknown resulting in the invented panacea of an absurdity; a God creator with the self-serving purpose of reward through obedience and worship. Not all men are created equal yet despite gifting those with a fine intelligence and education, some fall prey in the confusion of primordial spirituality and wishful thinking that there is a benign being; a paternal and loving deity who’s single purpose is to offer the illogicality of eternal life after death. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard what God has in store for those that love Him Yet the only evidence of God that is on offer is the breathtaking magnificence of the natural world and the eternal mysterious universe. We are a flawed species and so it is unsurprising that the faithful have come up with a comical answer to the universe.

    The God business is all about the fear of death and not about the gift of life; the link in evolution. I’m too important to be assigned to oblivion.

  • #189862

    Gianni
    Member

  • #189863

    evogel
    Member

    not sure what is so comical about sincobrakhan52011-11-28 00:57:18

  • #189865

    celso
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    One suspects that of all living sentient things, only Man is aware of its own mortality. The amalgamation of ignorance with the arrogance of self-importance can, and does, induce a fear of death and fear of the unknown resulting in the invented panacea of an absurdity; a God creator with the self-serving purpose of reward through obedience and worship. Not all men are created equal yet despite gifting those with a fine intelligence and education, some fall prey in the confusion of primordial spirituality and wishful thinking that there is a benign being; a paternal and loving deity who’s single purpose is to offer the illogicality of eternal life after death. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard what God has in store for those that love Him Yet the only evidence of God that is on offer is the breathtaking magnificence of the natural world and the eternal mysterious universe. We are a flawed species and so it is unsurprising that the faithful have come up with a comical answer to the universe.

    The God business is all about the fear of death and not about the gift of life; the link in evolution. I’m too important to be assigned to oblivion.

    [/QUOTE] Dear Esprit, Where have you been? You are very much missed and I am happy to see your return. Cheers! GBOF

  • #189877

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]]
    This is a very weak argument…[/QUOTE]
    Not nearly as weak as the leap of faith.
    Religion needs god to be strong and merciful to be a savior.
    During a tsunami, more than 200000 men, women and children perished. If god where merciful and omnipotent, such a feat would certainly not have happened. He would have done something.
    Some will say they had it coming, being mostly Muslims and all, but that would take away the merciful part of god, as muslims pray to the same Abrahamic god.
    Others may say that it was the work of the devil, but that also is a very weak argument. As only god existed before creation, god must have created lucifer. So if it was the work of lucifer, god is too weak to control his own creation.
    The other possibility is the fact that he just didn’t give a crap. Being omnipotent he could have done something, but didn’t. How can such a being be our saviour?
    It really doesn’t disprove the existence of god, but natural disaster and human conduct certainly is a good arguement against the necessity of a god. It’s also a good logical arguement against the existence of a god.
    As you yourself quoted, “Ask and you will be given”. I had a co-worker that died in the GOL accident. She didn’t like flying and would visit church to pray before a flight, asking to be saved. She was the last passenger to be found.
    I’m sure that, before the air France accident, a lot of prayer went on. I see it all the time when I fly home. Why where those people not saved. Of course on TV you’ll see one or the other zealot stating that god saved them through the miracle of traffic jams, but not those on the plane.
    With a merciful god, that is our savior, certainly such things would not happen. But as they do, why need a god? Just a step of logic, not faith.

  • #189892

    evogel
    Member

    Yeah can’t tell you why God allows suffering and death besides the fact that sin leads to death, but I do know he provides mercy and forgiveness. And you are stating these comments as if this is the end of the line when in compared to eternity I think this life would be considered very short. The Bible does say that every person will come before the judgement seat and sorry I can’t tell you what that looks like either. I know what I will be saying though….. without Jesus, no way would I ever make it past judgement.

  • #189893

    evogel
    Member

    We need God because without Him we have no chance.

  • #189894

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yeah can’t tell you why God allows suffering and death besides the fact that sin leads to death, but I do know he provides mercy and forgiveness. [/QUOTE]
    Again, that ain’t much use if you’re killed by a tsunami and leave behind an impoverished family. Still, at least you’ll be forgiven.

  • #189901

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] not sure what is so comical about sin[/QUOTE]
    You have to be stupid enough to believe in Religion to commit sin, so that’s funny.

  • #189902

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Yeah can’t tell you why God allows suffering and death besides the fact that sin leads to death[/QUOTE]
    Last I looked, tsunamis don’t really differentiate whom they kill. They basically kill anyone in their path.
    Same goes for aircraft crashes, they usually kill everyone. I doubt that through “karma” or “luck” the flights that crash only have sinners on it.
    Your statement that “sin leads to death” basically states “they had it coming since they where sinners”.
    I guess that, along the same line, 6 million jews (I’m not even going to end that phrase)
    And the 30 million give or take that died at the hands of Stalin, they where probably state induced atheists, so they too…..
    At least in Bhuddism, sin occurs in interpersonal relations and not in relations between persons and a deity. Sin in bhuddism is much more on a human level. One would be sinning in wrongdoing another being.

  • #189903

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=irishdaz]Still, at least you’ll be forgiven.[/QUOTE]
    1) Suicide is a sin, you can’t repent before you kill yourself, so you’d go to hell.
    2) Killing someone is a mortal sin, which, in some countries can get you killed. Before they put you to death, you can repent and be forgiven.
    3) The logical conclusion is that, the best way to commit suicide is to kill someone in the state of Texas, repent to a priest and don’t stall the execution with appeals. It’s the only way you can go to kill yourself (indirectly) and repent your sin in order to go to heaven.

  • #189911

    [QUOTE=Esprit] One suspects that of all living sentient things, only Man is aware of its own mortality. [/QUOTE]
    I would take it one step further and suspect that out of all living sentient beings known to us, only man is self-conscious.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]The amalgamation of ignorance with the arrogance of self-importance can, and does, induce a fear of death and fear of the unknown resulting in the invented panacea of an absurdity; a God creator with the self-serving purpose of reward through obedience and worship. [/QUOTE]
    Well, if we compare ourselves against the known universe, both living and non-living matter, we do come out with some pretty impressive advantages, i.e. self-consciousness, capacity to develop civilization, capacity to delelop God-consciousness, etc. No star, galaxy, or any aggregation of matter and energy has such amazing qualities. Moreover, our animal cousins and other relatives also seem to be devoid of such maybe-not-so-useless qualities.
    We alone are capable to recognize and confront our ignorance, while our arrogance is pretty much caused by the disclosure allegedly coming out of the higher sources highlighting our differences and advantages.
    Chances are that the fear of death, fear of the unknown are put into us with the purpose to lead us through serendipitious search, through trial and error towards something greater.
    Maybe the idea of God, who is amongst many other accomplishments could be credited with the creation of the universe, is not so absurd after all.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]Not all men are created equal yet despite gifting those with a fine intelligence and education, some fall prey in the confusion of primordial spirituality and wishful thinking that there is a benign being; a paternal and loving deity who’s single purpose is to offer the illogicality of eternal life after death. [/QUOTE]
    I am pretty sure that endowing mortal man with the possibility of eternal existence is just one of many undertakings and purposes of the Deity. I also fail to see the “illogicality” of eternal life. For me, it is logical, rational, and very much desired, but it could be the dire lack of education and ignorance speaking…
    [QUOTE=Esprit]Eye hath not seen nor ear heard what God has in store for those that love Him Yet the only evidence of God that is on offer is the breathtaking magnificence of the natural world and the eternal mysterious universe. We are a flawed species and so it is unsurprising that the faithful have come up with a comical answer to the universe. [/QUOTE]
    True, some answers are comical, but don’t forget that we are seen as “spiritual children”, i.e. intelligent beings that are located on lower rangs of the ladder of intelligent life in the universe, and not on top, as we are tempted to believe.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]The God business is all about the fear of death and not about the gift of life; the link in evolution. I’m too important to be assigned to oblivion. [/QUOTE]
    If you meant “trafficing in counterfeit religious goods”, I would have to agree with you, but I would not presume to impinge on the actual God’s business.

  • #189914

    evogel
    Member

    The problem is….. with the individuals in this thread trying to intellectualize sin and forgiveness is this.
    You obviously have not received forgiveness of sin from God and do not understand it or you would not be making such outlandish and worthless assumptions.
    Grace is a gift, and it is not earned! That can help get you started. It has nothing to do with being worthy of forgiveness and keep in mind we all deserve death.cobrakhan52011-11-28 10:59:59

  • #189915

    [QUOTE=sven]Not nearly as weak as the leap of faith.[/QUOTE]
    Leap of faith, although it might lead nowhere is infinitly stronger then a mere speculation.
    [QUOTE=sven]Religion needs god to be strong and merciful to be a savior. [/QUOTE]
    True. What is wrong with being strong and merciful?
    [QUOTE=sven]During a tsunami, more than 200000 men, women and children perished. If god where merciful and omnipotent, such a feat would certainly not have happened. He would have done something.[/QUOTE]
    I think that it is we who failed to use our God-given intelligence and to apply all the humanly-available means to reduce the unnecessary and uncalled for casualties.
    [QUOTE=sven]Some will say they had it coming, being mostly Muslims and all, but that would take away the merciful part of god, as muslims pray to the same Abrahamic god.[/QUOTE]
    How do you know they were mostly Muslims? The regions affected seem to be mostly Hindu and Buddhists.
    [QUOTE=sven]Others may say that it was the work of the devil, but that also is a very weak argument. As only god existed before creation, god must have created lucifer. So if it was the work of lucifer, god is too weak to control his own creation.[/QUOTE]
    I don’t believe then any of the natural disasters and consequent disastrous failings in human logistics and care are the work of devil.
    I also happen to believe that micro-managenment and hand-slapping of intelligent beings are counter-indicative of free will creation.
    [QUOTE=sven]The other possibility is the fact that he just didn’t give a crap. Being omnipotent he could have done something, but didn’t. How can such a being be our saviour?[/QUOTE]
    It is possible that from God’s veiwpoint transition what happenned was mere transition from one form of existence to another of few hundred thousands beings.
    [QUOTE=sven]It really doesn’t disprove the existence of god, but natural disaster and human conduct certainly is a good arguement against the necessity of a god. It’s also a good logical arguement against the existence of a god.[/QUOTE]
    Not it is not. I fail to see any argument here, much less a “good” argument. Can you, please, clarify…
    [QUOTE=sven]As you yourself quoted, “Ask and you will be given”. I had a co-worker that died in the GOL accident. She didn’t like flying and would visit church to pray before a flight, asking to be saved. She was the last passenger to be found.[/QUOTE]
    I am sorry about your co-worker’s death. I have no idea of what has actually happened with her or why.
    [QUOTE=sven]I’m sure that, before the air France accident, a lot of prayer went on. I see it all the time when I fly home. Why where those people not saved. Of course on TV you’ll see one or the other zealot stating that god saved them through the miracle of traffic jams, but not those on the plane.[/QUOTE]
    Yes, the fallacy of the confirmation. I agree with you. I just happen to think that the prayers are powerless in material-related issues.
    [QUOTE=sven]With a merciful god, that is our savior, certainly such things would not happen. But as they do, why need a god? Just a step of logic, not faith.[/QUOTE]
    You seem to view material death as the ultimate evil. That is expected from a materialistic zealot. What if it is not?

  • #189923

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]
    Your statement that “sin leads to death” basically states “they had it coming since they where sinners”.
    [/QUOTE]
    except all those repentant prison criminals

  • #189933

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]
    [QUOTE=sven] Your statement that “sin leads to death” basically states “they had it coming since they where sinners”.
    [/QUOTE]except all those repentant prison criminals[/QUOTE]
    Not all people who are in prison are criminals, not all criminals are in prison. What was your point again?

  • #189934

    Anonymous

    So, three guys walk into a bar: an evangelist, a lawyer, and a pedant……

  • #189935

    [QUOTE=3casas] So, three guys walk into a bar: an evangelist, a lawyer, and a pedant……
    [/QUOTE]
    Neah… too cliché…. Couldn’t you do better then that?

  • #189940

    evogel
    Member

    the evangelist is probably having the most fun.

  • #189941

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] the evangelist is probably having the most fun. [/QUOTE]
    … at a bar? I doubt it…

  • #189942

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I would take it one step further and suspect that out of all living sentient beings known to us, only man is self-conscious.
    [/QUOTE]
    And what information do you base that on?
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Well, if we compare ourselves against the known universe, both living and non-living matter, we do come out with some pretty impressive advantages, i.e. self-consciousness, capacity to develop civilization, capacity to delelop God-consciousness, etc. [/QUOTE]
    Ants build civilizations. I don’t know about the self consciousness, but research shows that other animals also have some level of self consciousness. Some animals even create rudimentary societies.
    What makes us different from other animals is the location of the thumb, which we share with apes, and speech, which enables us to transmit knowledge at a very detailed level.
    We are what we are due to society. Our self consciousnesses and our “self” is a reflection of what others think of us. Without knowing what others think of us, we cannot know who we are.
    According to Heidegger, being is being engaged in this world. It’s what we need to be self conscient.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Chances are that the fear of death, fear of the unknown are put into us with the purpose to lead us through serendipitious search, through trial and error towards something greater.[/QUOTE]
    Maybe fear of death is just fear of the unknown, fear of pain.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Maybe the idea of God, who is amongst many other accomplishments could be credited with the creation of the universe, is not so absurd after all.[/QUOTE]
    Or maybe it is. As we fear the unknown, the easy way would be to invent something that explains the unknown, god, the know it all and explain it all. That’s why god and science can live together in perfect harmony. Everything that science doesn’t explain (yet), can be explained through god.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I also fail to see the “illogicality” of eternal life. For me, it is logical, rational, and very much desired, but it could be the dire lack of education and ignorance speaking…[/QUOTE]
    Or it is just the irrational, illogical answer to the question of life, the universe and everything else. The need to explain why you are, on the basis of a promise to eternal life, if you behave within the guidelines of your religion.
    Why don’t we see to eternal life for other beings, but just for man? The dengue fly that never bytes anyone, shouldn’t he have eternal life too?
    Humans through their own minds create values and the meaning of their life. For some that is the “faith” in what they call eternal life.

  • #189943

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=hpeak13]
    [QUOTE=sven] Your statement that “sin leads to death” basically states “they had it coming since they where sinners”.
    [/QUOTE]except all those repentant prison criminals[/QUOTE]
    Not all people who are in prison are criminals, not all criminals are in prison. What was your point again?[/QUOTE]
    not all sins lead to death. that was my point…a few praise jeebus’ and all is forgotten.

  • #189944

    evogel
    Member

    hahaha…. I go to the bar with my friends. Nothing wrong with drinking I just will not get drunk and I only have a few beers…. now I did go to a bar with some brazillians visiting in town last week…. about 30 of them….. some of the dudes were pretty off the hook messing with the american girls but the Brazillian girls were telling me how unimpressed they are with the aggressive approach lol. I personally had never seen something that forward here in U.S. But yeah the dudes were walking up to random girls and kissing them then the girls would kiss back and not talk to them the rest of the night….. not the type of thing I am interested in but they have free will to do whatever they want!

  • #189946

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    How do you know they were mostly Muslims? The regions affected seem to be mostly Hindu and Buddhists.[/QUOTE]
    Most victims occured in Sumatra, Indonesia, which has the worlds larges muslim population (203 million). It’s also the countries predominant religion. With a population of 237 million, it’s fair to assume, most victims where muslim.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I am sorry about your co-worker’s death. I have no idea of what has actually happened with her or why.[/QUOTE]
    Basically, she sat in her seat, and after a certain time of flight, she smashed on the ground, together with 153 others. I thought that that at least would be clear.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Yes, the fallacy of the confirmation. I agree with you. I just happen to think that the prayers are powerless in material-related issues. [/QUOTE]
    So you can pray for what? Forgiveness?
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    You seem to view material death as the ultimate evil. That is expected from a materialistic zealot. What if it is not? [/QUOTE]
    I’m not a materialistic zealot, where did you ever get that from.

  • #189947

    evogel
    Member

    I do not even fear death. I have already faced death on multiple occasions….. personally i think pain is worse then death….. but some pain is good….. I love when muscles get pain from working it out means they get bigger!

  • #189949

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG]
    I would take it one step further and suspect that out of all living sentient beings known to us, only man is self-conscious.
    [/QUOTE]
    And what information do you base that on?[/QUOTE]
    Mostly from the recently developed insight into the neocortex functionality of humans and primates, but I am willing to keep it at intelligent guess level.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Ants build civilizations. I don’t know about the self consciousness, but research shows that other animals also have some level of self consciousness. Some animals even create rudimentary societies.[/QUOTE]
    I think that unlike other species, human civilization exhihits behavior that transcends instinctive level. IN short, human civilization evolves. I doubt that ants, termites, bees, or any other complex-society adherent species are capable of originating religion, philosophy, technological progess, written records, and other wholemarks of human civilization.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    What makes us different from other animals is the location of the thumb, which we share with apes, and speech, which enables us to transmit knowledge at a very detailed level.[/QUOTE]
    That’s all?
    [QUOTE=sven]
    We are what we are due to society. Our self consciousnesses and our “self” is a reflection of what others think of us. Without knowing what others think of us, we cannot know who we are.[/QUOTE]
    yes, we are social animals, but I think that we are social animals+
    [QUOTE=sven]
    According to Heidegger, being is being engaged in this world. It’s what we need to be self conscient.[/QUOTE]
    He has a point.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Maybe fear of death is just fear of the unknown, fear of pain.[/QUOTE]
    I wouldn’t mix two things together. There are numerous instances of pain which make one wish one was dead. Fear of the unknown is more likely it.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Or maybe it is. As we fear the unknown, the easy way would be to invent something that explains the unknown, god, the know it all and explain it all. That’s why god and science can live together in perfect harmony. Everything that science doesn’t explain (yet), can be explained through god.[/QUOTE]
    I think it depends on the viewpoint. I see death as inevitability and fear of death as a gut-level knee-jerk reaction.
    It appears that there are two options or we go back to nothingness, or there is a lot more that happens after physical death that rather then scare thrills me.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Or it is just the irrational, illogical answer to the question of life, the universe and everything else. The need to explain why you are, on the basis of a promise to eternal life, if you behave within the guidelines of your religion.[/QUOTE]
    Possibly.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Why don’t we see to eternal life for other beings, but just for man? The dengue fly that never bytes anyone, shouldn’t he have eternal life too?[/QUOTE]
    sven, there are no dengue flies… Dengue is passed around by mosquitas. Besides, if you happen to be buddhist or hindu and believe in transmigration of the souls, chances are that you might’ve been a tze-tze fly or a shark in the past. That would explain your desire to become a human version of one – a lawyer
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Humans through their own minds create values and the meaning of their life. For some that is the “faith” in what they call eternal life.[/QUOTE]
    Everything that we are or do comes through mind. This is our only connection to reality and existence, at least in the initial stages.

  • #189951

    [QUOTE=sven]Most victims occured in Sumatra, Indonesia, which has the worlds larges muslim population (203 million). It’s also the countries predominant religion. With a population of 237 million, it’s fair to assume, most victims where muslim.[/QUOTE]
    It seems to be the case.
    [QUOTE=sven]Basically, she sat in her seat, and after a certain time of flight, she smashed on the ground, together with 153 others. I thought that that at least would be clear.[/QUOTE]
    More then clear. What an awful way to die.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Yes, the fallacy of the confirmation. I agree with you. I just happen to think that the prayers are powerless in material-related issues. [/QUOTE]
    So you can pray for what? Forgiveness?
    [/QUOTE]
    No, generally I pray for wisdom, insight, and patience.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    I’m not a materialistic zealot, where did you ever get that from.[/QUOTE]
    Are you not materialistic or a zealot? Where did I go wrong?

  • #189952

    [QUOTE=hpeak13] not all sins lead to death. that was my point…a few praise jeebus’ and all is forgotten.[/QUOTE]
    Divine forgivness doesn’t free one from natural consequences of crimes and stupid behavior.

  • #189953

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    sven, there are no dengue flies… Dengue is passed around by mosquitas. [/QUOTE]
    So a person can’t make a honest mistake, of course they are mosquitos, the same that are responsable for yellow fever.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    That would explain your desire to become a human version of one – a lawyer [/QUOTE]
    Well, thanks, don’t come to me for help.
    Remember when I told you that “terceirização” in IT is fraud….
    That was a lie …..

  • #189954

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG]
    sven, there are no dengue flies… Dengue is passed around by mosquitas. [/QUOTE]
    So a person can’t make a honest mistake, of course they are mosquitos, the same that are responsable for yellow fever.[/QUOTE]
    Why do you insist on error? Mosquitos don’t drink blood, it is a popular misconception. Mosquitos subsist on the nectar of the flowers. It is mosquitas who are blood suckers
    [QUOTE=sven]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    That would explain your desire to become a human version of one – a lawyer [/QUOTE]
    Well, thanks, don’t come to me for help.
    Remember when I told you that “terceirização” in IT is fraud….
    That was a lie …..
    [/QUOTE]
    sven, I see lawyers, as a necessary evil. BTW, thanks for the heads up about tercerização

  • #189955

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Are you not materialistic or a zealot? Where did I go wrong?[/QUOTE]
    When you called me a materialistic zealot.
    My materials are a BBQ and an ice box. Some picanha and beer keeps me happy. You can’t please me with the newest Mercedes, unless it comes with a grill and draft beer.

  • #189956

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Why do you insist on error? [/QUOTE]
    If you can teletransport yourself to the where I work, you can now see me bang my head on the door.
    If I say “autocorrect” would you believe me.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Mosquitos subsist on the nectar of the flowers[/QUOTE]
    I thought that musquitos subsisted on dog and cow crap..
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    sven, I see lawyers, as a necessary evil. BTW, thanks for the heads up about tercerização [/QUOTE]
    If you want to take that leap of faith …
    Or follow the dark side of the force.

  • #189958

    [QUOTE=sven] If you can teletransport yourself to the where I work, you can now see me bang my head on the door.
    If I say “autocorrect” would you believe me.
    [/QUOTE]
    sven, don’t you work with software development? I think that head banging comes with the territory
    [QUOTE=sven]
    I thought that musquitos subsisted on dog and cow crap..
    [/QUOTE]
    Only when they get tired of the nectar or there is a shortage…
    [QUOTE=sven]
    If you want to take that leap of faith …
    Or follow the dark side of the force.
    [/QUOTE]
    “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil…”

  • #189961

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    sven, don’t you work with software development? I think that head banging comes with the territory [/QUOTE]
    Not if you’re good at it. We only employ extremely competent people here.
    [QUOTE=BorisG] “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil…”[/QUOTE]
    That is like saying “stick your head in the sand” in a nice way, isn’t it.
    I never dug the part of oiling your head. Do you always oil the head of your guests when you have them over for a meal?
    sven2011-11-28 14:33:38

  • #189963

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I do not even fear death. I have already faced death on multiple occasions….. personally i think pain is worse then death….. but some pain is good….. I love when muscles get pain from working it out means they get bigger! [/QUOTE] Faced death on multiple occasions eh? Impressive! And what ‚Äì death backed down because of your muscles? I imagine that you don’t get headaches either. Bet you have a life-size poster of Jesus wearing a Speedo too ‚Äì onward Christian soldiers. LOL

  • #189969

    evogel
    Member

    Must… resist…. the …… troll….. um why would I have a picture of Jesus? And no i escaped death on multiple occasions is all…. and I know here I am going when I die so no need to fear.

  • #189973

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG]
    sven, don’t you work with software development? I think that head banging comes with the territory [/QUOTE]
    Not if you’re good at it. We only employ extremely competent people here.[/QUOTE]
    You obviously don’t work much with end users . Still, in my experience, it takes an extremally competent person to really screw up.
    Mistakes based on incompetence and lack of experience are easy to spot and relativly inexpensive to fix…

  • #189974

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Must… resist…. the …… troll….. um why would I have a picture of Jesus? And no i escaped death on multiple occasions is all…. and I know here I am going when I die so no need to fear. [/QUOTE]
    does calling others trolls make you thinkthat you arent one?

  • #189975

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Must… resist…. the …… troll….. um why would I have a picture of Jesus? And no i escaped death on multiple occasions is all…. and I know here I am going when I die so no need to fear. [/QUOTE]
    I have also escaped death on multiple occasions. Today for instance I could have walked onto the motor way without looking but just in time I decided not to, thus escaping death. This happens every day to me, this death escaping.
    Isn’t all religion built upon a fear of not knowing what happens when you die? Em, yes it is and I feel I speak for all of humanity when I say it because a voice in my head that no one else can hear told me. So there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  • #189978

    [QUOTE=irishdaz] Isn’t all religion built upon a fear of not knowing what happens when you die? Em, yes it is and I feel I speak for all of humanity when I say it because a voice in my head that no one else can hear told me. So there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. [/QUOTE]
    The promise of salvation undoubtedly plays a very important role in the origin and evolution of all religions. It takes many forms, from the promise of an unending party with plenty of alcohol and sex to the promise of the break out of the cycle of rebirth and immersion in Nirvana.
    Physical death is one thing we all not only can agree on, but at some point would have to face. Do all people fear death? (aside from it physiological and psychological horror) Some of us are thrilled by what comes after and are more curios then afraid.

  • #189979

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] [QUOTE=irishdaz] Isn’t all religion built upon a fear of not knowing what happens when you die? Em, yes it is and I feel I speak for all of humanity when I say it because a voice in my head that no one else can hear told me. So there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. [/QUOTE]
    The promise of salvation undoubtedly plays a very important role in the origin and evolution of all religions. It takes many forms, from the promise of an unending party with plenty of alcohol and sex to the promise of the break out of the cycle of rebirth and immersion in Nirvana.
    Physical death is one thing we all not only can agree on, but at some point would have to face. Do all people fear death? (aside from it physiological and psychological horror) Some of us are thrilled by what comes after and are more curios then afraid.[/QUOTE]
    Fair enough but I can’t for the life of me see why there has to be something else when we die. Can’t we just die and be done with it? So what if there is no afterlife.

  • #189981

    It is possible that there is no afterlife, then it is nothingnesss, nonbeing. Undesirable from where I stand, but hardly threatening.
    As a matter of fact, even the possibility of the afterlife – existence beyond the portals of the physical death, seems to be optional.
    Evolving human beings seem to imagine afterlife based on our developing ideias of what is good and what is desirable, i.e. ideas of Valhalla, nirvana, heaven, etc. It seems to me that there is a lot more to it then mere non-ending bliss, or endless party, I’d be bored out of my mind with both within a very short period of time, never mind in eternity.

  • #189982

    scotty447
    Member

    Bribing God (different people do it in different ways ) is the best way to get a confirmed ticket to heaven WinkWacko

  • #189983

    evogel
    Member

    Fair enough but I can’t for the life of me see why there has to be something else when we die. Can’t we just die and be done with it? So what if there is no afterlife.
    Well if your right and I am wrong I am out nothing….. if you are wrong and I am right well…. I would certainly think a just God would give everyone a chance… but again I do not call the shots so. cobrakhan52011-11-28 20:50:18

  • #189984

    I prefer making an alliance with God to an antiquated assumption then it is even possible to bribe a higher being.
    What can I give to God that he doesn’t have or can have without my co-operation?
    I think that if I am to subscribe to the viewpoint that I am created in God’s image, endowed with some capacity that is God-like, i.e. free will, the only true gift that I can give is to align my will with God’s. “It is my will that your Will be done.”
    [QUOTE=ganeshrkara]  Bribing God (different people do it in different ways ) is the best way to get a confirmed ticket  to heaven Wink Wacko  [/QUOTE]

  • #189985

    Gianni
    Member

    Fundamental religion is the opposite notion of common sense in an ever enlightening world, we must refrain from assuming Santa is real. However, the potentiality of an opportunity to live again is not unproven, but how, is definitely no obvious measure as of yet.
    Please save the mumbo-jumbo for dumbo…

  • #189988

    evogel
    Member

    Santa is a lie told by parents to children in order to have some fun with them on Christmas. But you know if you rearrange Santa into Satan just by moving around the last three letters. I generally refer to him as Satan Clause the deceiver of Christmas =)mainly because I do not believe in telling lies to my children nor do I want them to miss the full meaning of Christmas.
    And no I am not your daddy and I am not telling you made up stories =)I only talk out of my own experiences. Which unfortunately is vast at my still young age of 30. by unfortunate it means I have had to go through hell and back and for some reason God still has me here.

  • #189989

    Gianni
    Member

    You’ve been to hell? That’s a first…
    You cannot rearrange letters and conclude evil, that’s purely ignorant, regarding my earlier comment on common sense. There is no more explanation to the reality of Santa as there is to God.
    Funny when you convince yourself, I find it entertaining. I am very sorry though, it’s not called Christmas anymore, it’s known as the Holidays, happy holidays. Christianity has been the only religion to made to exile their festivities, haha!
    Hanukkah is still a go!

  • #189990

    evogel
    Member

    Uh no .. I celebrate Christmas and I think it is rather cheeky how I explained that so

  • #189991

    evogel
    Member

    and the Holy Spirit is evidence

  • #189992

    Gianni
    Member

    Holy water doesn’t even compete with Perrier, that stuff is delicious! I’m not trying to knock your beliefs, but I think you can acknowledge you really convinced yourself, and not much else. The community values of religion are sometimes very helpful, but those can be broken down into tribal instincts etc..

  • #189993

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]I prefer making an alliance with God to an antiquated assumption then it is even possible to bribe a higher being.

    What can I give to God that he doesn’t have or can have without my co-operation?

    I think that if I am to subscribe to the viewpoint that I am created in God’s image, endowed with some capacity that is God-like, i.e. free will, the only true gift that I can give is to align my will with God’s. “It is my will that your Will be done.”

    [/QUOTE] I have to admit that I have been drifting in and out of this posting but, Boris – if what you say is from your heart – then I think you’ve got it. What can we give to God? To the Creator of the sunrise and sunset? To the maker of the earth, the oceans, the mountains, the sweet smell of a baby’s breath? Is this a 4 billion year old accident? A freak of nature? Did we crawl from the oceans and then by accident develop this compassion for our brothers and sisters around the world? I think not. The apostle Paul, who originally delighted in persecuting the followers of Jesus, who once saved by the grace of God said the following in his letter to the Ephesians – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith‚Äîand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God‚Äî not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‚Äôs handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Let’s not reward ourselves as CNN Heroes – we are simply God’s workers here on earth. Those who laugh in their rejection of God as they do their good works on this earth will one day smile when they realize that they are mere soldiers in His victorious fight against the evil one. I rejoice that there are now over 8500 posts on the three topics relating to my God. He really works in strange ways. I suppose that I am one of the few who would welcome His second coming tomorrow but I think that the list will grow as the Holy Spirit of Jesus takes this opportunity to do His work. Keep the posts coming. God really does work in mysterious ways.

  • #189994

    evogel
    Member

    yes this ^^ I have had situation where God has told me when someone was going to die. Mystery??? um yeah!

  • #189995

    Anonymous

    Much is made of free will. In the name of sanity, what creature doesn‚Äôt enjoy free will in one context or another? The will in question is the will to love and serve God. God loves us and has given us the freedom to love in return, but if we don’t, this wrathful deity gets pissed and thereby denies us access to heaven. In fact God gets so pissed that rather than simply denying us eternal life we are vindictively consigned to the suffering of an eternity in an unimaginable hell; unrequited love? God must surely be a supernatural psychotic female. Love me…LOVE ME!!!

    P.S. if you’re gonna die a sinner make sure you do it at the right time of the month. Pinch

  • #189996

    Gianni
    Member

    You’re entitled to be positive, but your image of superiority as if, God, created each item for Man only. Again, purely ignorant. Man cannot even tie his own shoe without causing something to suffer, you have to get in tune with reality, friend.
    Appreciate the things around you, try to leave a trail of what might be an improve from what you found of it initially.
    Basically you can quote all the text you want, but homie, the book doesn’t even come with any pictures… haha

  • #189997

    No sweat, most of us would know for sure in under 50 years…
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] Fundamental religion is the opposite notion of common sense in an ever enlightening world, we must refrain from assuming Santa is real. However, the potentiality of an opportunity to live again is not unproven, but how, is definitely no obvious measure as of yet.
    Please save the mumbo-jumbo for dumbo… [/QUOTE]

  • #189998

    evogel
    Member

    No …. it is sin that keeps people out of God’s presence….He did what none would do…. He died for us… you look at it from a very cynical viewpoint. He is reaching out His arms!!!!

  • #189999

    Gianni
    Member

    Bro there’s no hell for me, and we capped that dude for talking smack, he should have just remained a carpenter. Live and learn.. God’s presence is an unknown to even the holiest of molly..

  • #190000

    evogel
    Member

    Did i mention God has shown me the future on multiple occasions….. He told me my dad was going to die soon…. and boom he died 2 weeks later…… he showed me in a dream one night my mom would be leading in a church and she wasn’t even following Jesus…. now she is a representing a ministry that helps people transition out of prison back into society….. point is….. God is real and he works in ways that we do not even have comprehension…..

  • #190001

    evogel
    Member

    did I mention I had not talked to my dad in over 2 years not even once…. he was living a life of homosexuality and witchcraft and left his wife and two children? And God told me when he was going to die!!! So i could tell him about God!!! Freaking awesome….

  • #190002

    Steven,
    I mean every word. My only agenda is to discuss and to share, for I subscribe to the idea that it is up to each individual to develop or not relationship with God, and that no one should be converted or bullied into anything against their will, which I hold sacred, just like I think God does.
    BTW, I accept your idea of God and raise you some. The Deity I am after is capable of originating reality and the universe, all of it, not just one lousy planet even with all the attraction it offers…
    I am after eternity and infinity, but still curios enough about the details of our story that is only a little over four billions of years old…
    [QUOTE=Steven] [QUOTE=BorisG]I prefer making an alliance with God to an antiquated assumption then it is even possible to bribe a higher being. What can I give to God that he doesn’t have or can have without my co-operation? I think that if I am to subscribe to the viewpoint that I am created in God’s image, endowed with some capacity that is God-like, i.e. free will, the only true gift that I can give is to align my will with God’s. “It is my will that your Will be done.”¬† [/QUOTE]

     

    I have to admit that I have been drifting in and out of this posting but, Boris – if what you say is from your heart – then I think you’ve got it.¬†

     

    What can we give to God?¬† To the Creator of the sunrise and sunset?¬† To the maker of the earth, the oceans, the mountains, the sweet smell of a baby’s breath?

     

    Is this a 4 billion year old accident?  A freak of nature?  Did we crawl from the oceans and then by accident develop this compassion for our brothers and sisters around the world?  I think not. 

     

    The apostle Paul, who originally delighted in persecuting the followers of Jesus, who once saved by the grace of God said the following in his letter to the Ephesians – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith‚Äîand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God‚Äî not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‚Äôs handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

     

    Let’s not reward ourselves as CNN Heroes – we are simply God’s workers here on earth.¬† Those who laugh in their rejection of God as they do their good works on this earth will one day smile when they realize that they are mere soldiers in His victorious fight against the evil one.¬†

     

    I rejoice that there are now over 8500 posts on the three topics relating to my God.  He really works in strange ways.  I suppose that I am one of the few who would welcome His second coming tomorrow but I think that the list will grow as the Holy Spirit of Jesus takes this opportunity to do His work. 

     

    Keep the posts coming.  God really does work in mysterious ways.

    [/QUOTE]

  • #190003

    evogel
    Member

    Oh I most certainly know the presence of God…. it is something you will NEVER forget!!!

  • #190004

    Gianni
    Member

    Christianity is a selfish ideology that defies the respect of logic and thereby absorbing selfish preference into what it concludes to be fitting of its agenda. There’s absolutely zero sense to the christian religion, thoughI do enjoy my two weeks off in december! I appreciate that, I really do, thank you christians, you got a good thing going there!

  • #190005

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Did i mention God has shown me the future on multiple occasions….. He told me my dad was going to die soon…. and boom he died 2 weeks later…… [/QUOTE] Boom he died! A suicide bomber? Say it ain‚Äôt so!

  • #190006

    Gianni
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]Did i mention God has shown me the future on multiple occasions….. He told me my dad was going to die soon…. and boom he died 2 weeks later…… [/QUOTE]

    <SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>

     

    Boom he died! A suicide bomber? Say it ain‚Äôt so!<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>

    [/QUOTE]
    I picture you smoking a massive joint, and having a laugh, every time you sign into this forum.

  • #190007

    To be fair, I think that we have two options: either respond or not to the call of eternity.
    We can choose to go on or not. In case of a negative choice, I think that the option is non-existence, nothingness, something like what the atheists invision as the only outcome available.
    For me love of God comes naturally from recognition of the possibility of the gift of the eternal life among others….
    [QUOTE=Esprit] <P style=”MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt” =Msonormal><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>Much is made of free will. In the name of sanity, what creature doesn‚Äôt enjoy free will in one context or another? The will in question is the will to love and serve God. God loves us and has given us the freedom to love in return, but if we don’t, this wrathful deity gets pissed and thereby denies us access to heaven. In fact God gets so pissed that rather than simply denying us eternal life we are vindictively consigned to the suffering of an eternity in an unimaginable hell; unrequited love? God must surely be a supernatural psychotic female. Love me…LOVE ME!!!<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>
    <P style=”MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt” =Msonormal><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>P.S. if you‚Äôre gonna die a sinner make sure you do it at the right time of the month.¬†<SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬†</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬†</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬†</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬†</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬†Pinch</SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN>[/QUOTE]

  • #190009

    evogel
    Member

    I love my experiences with God and only wish the same for you all…… sorry that you feel so angry in your hearts and I truly hope that can change for you.

  • #190010

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] BTW, I accept your idea of God and raise you some. The Deity I am after is capable of originating reality and the universe, all of it, not just one lousy planet even with all the attraction it offers…

    [/QUOTE] I think the thing that blows my mind is that He decided to create the entire universe by simply breathing it from His mouth. Stars 10000 times bigger than our own Sun. Planets more numerous than we could count in 1000 years. But He decided that this earth would be where He created Man in His image. He gave us free will and we disappointed Him. But, He loved us so much that He decided to give us an out – a way back to Him. Simply accept the grace He gave us through the sacrifice of His Son. Steven2011-11-28 22:08:22

  • #190011

    I think this is one of the errors we are paying dearly for, not as a vengence, but as a natural outcome of the rejection of truth. Unfortunatly, our history is dotted with martyring prophets, yet in the case of Jesus, we’d outdone ourselves.
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] Bro there’s no hell for me, and we capped that dude for talking smack, he should have just remained a carpenter. Live and learn.. God’s presence is an unknown to even the holiest of molly.. [/QUOTE]

  • #190012

    Gianni
    Member

    Judaism has is locked, we don’t mess around.

  • #190013

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]did I mention I had not talked to my dad in over 2 years not even once…. he was living a life of homosexuality and witchcraft and left his wife and two children? And God told me when he was going to die!!! So i could tell him about God!!! Freaking awesome….[/QUOTE] This explains everything: the emphases on the body beautiful and the fight against your satanic tendencies. Be cool, come out. Jesus will still love you as He does all those kiddie fiddling priests. Confused

  • #190014

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=BorisG]…For me love of God comes naturally from recognition of the possibility of the gift of the eternal life among others….

    [/QUOTE]

    And so it follows that without the prospect of eternal life there is little point in loving God other than to say thank you for the gift of this short life.

  • #190015

    [QUOTE=Steven] I think the thing that blows my mind is that He decided to create the entire universe by simply breathing it from His mouth.[/QUOTE]
    As a figure of speech, I can accept your premise. It seems that the story is far more intricate and replete, but it can be nicely summarized in poetic images like the one you just provided.
    [QUOTE=Steven]Stars 10000 times bigger than our own Sun.  Planets more numerous than we could count in 1000 years.  But He decided that this earth would be where He created Man in His image.  [/QUOTE]
    It is not just stars, it is galaxies, super-galaxies, the whole extent of space, matter, energy… and a lot more. It is important that all of these aggregates are apparently devoid of free will, they must go on. We don’t we have the power of choice.
    [QUOTE=Steven]He gave us free will and we disappointed Him.  But, He loved us so much that He decided to give us an out Рa way back to Him.  Simply accept the grace He gave us through the sacrifice of His Son.  [/QUOTE]
    Steven, I think that the idea of Jesus being the sacrificial lamb is harking from the older days of superstition and misunderstanding God.
    If we are to believe that we are children of God, then it follows that we are bound to dissapoint. This is part of growing up and learning. It is refreshing to believe that our errors are forgiven if we want them to be forgiven.

  • #190016

    … haven’t thought of it like this. I think that in such a case thanking would be nice and a sign of good breeding, but futile and irrelevant…
    [QUOTE=Esprit] And so it follows that without the prospect of eternal life there is little point in loving God other than to say thank you for the gift of this short life.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>[/QUOTE]

  • #190017

    Gianni
    Member

    So what’s your point? To passively respect Christianity or acknowledge the insanity of it?

  • #190019

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    … haven’t thought of it like this. I think that in such a case thanking would be nice and a sign of good breeding, but futile and irrelevant…

    [/QUOTE]

    Im certain that God would be somewhat peeved to learn that you feel that gratitude for the gift of life on earth would be futile and irrelevant; for shame.Shocked

  • #190020

    evogel
    Member

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Not seeing how that relates to God, because I have gone to Him enough and have seen enough miracles that I know what will happen. I know by Faith I stand in Hope all because of Love.

  • #190021

    Gianni
    Member

    [quote]The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Not seeing how that relates to God, because I have gone to Him enough and have seen enough miracles that I know what will happen. I know by Faith I stand in Hope all because of Love.
    [/quote]
    wow… That doesn’t mean anything?

  • #190022

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Steven, I think that the idea of Jesus being the sacrificial lamb is harking from the older days of superstition and misunderstanding God.

    If we are to believe that we are children of God, then it follows that we are bound to dissapoint. This is part of growing up and learning. It is refreshing to believe that our errors are forgiven if we want them to be forgiven.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately, here is where we differ. For reasons beyond my comprehension God held the Jews to a very high standard regarding His laws. A standard that they were unable to adhere to. However, because of His love, He gave them an easy way out. The sacrifice of His Son – a gift that He extended to the gentiles including me. I accepted the gift. It’s available to everyone – easy terms – just say yes. FYI – time for bed. Talk to you all in the morning.

  • #190023

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results…QUOTE] So why keep posting the same message?Wacko

  • #190024

    Gianni
    Member

    [quote]Unfortunately, here is where we differ. For reasons beyond my comprehension God held the Jews to a very high standard regarding His laws. A standard that they were unable to adhere to.
    However, because of His love, He gave them an easy way out. The sacrifice of His Son – a gift that He extended to the gentiles including me. I accepted the gift. It’s available to everyone – easy terms – just say yes.
    FYI – time for bed. Talk to you all in the morning.[/quote]
    Well I think even “god” wouldn’t be impressed by your incorrect understanding of what you just said….

  • #190025

    Anonymous

    The problem with heaven as I see it is, despite the glory of a sunrise and prancing around barefoot in daises while listening to the angels heavenly choir, most of the really enjoyable stuff of life is regarded as sinning; a definite no no in heaven – bollocks!

  • #190026

    I think that Christianity has to be studied and understood.
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] So what’s your point? To passively respect Christianity or acknowledge the insanity of it? [/QUOTE] BorisG2011-11-28 23:15:45

  • #190027

    [QUOTE=Steven] Unfortunately, here is where we differ.  For reasons beyond my comprehension God held the Jews to a very high standard regarding His laws.  A standard that they were unable to adhere to.[/QUOTE]
    I happen to think that differences of opinions are a fortunate factor and not unfortunate one.
    It seems to me that one of the reasons that Jews had been held in such a high standard and to a higher standard up to the death of Jesus was that Judaism was the most promissing monotheistic religion embraced by intelligent and aggressive people. There was a track record of martyred prophets, but overall Jews were staunch monotheists in the sea of polytheistic religions and cults.
    [QUOTE=Steven]However, because of His love, He gave them an easy way out.  [/QUOTE]
    By any deifinition it wasn’t an easy way out, it still is not.
    [QUOTE=Steven]The sacrifice of His Son – a gift that He extended to the gentiles including me.¬† I accepted the gift.¬† It’s available to everyone – easy terms – just say yes.¬†FYI – time for bed.¬† Talk to you all in the morning. ¬†[/QUOTE]
    Exactly my point, our natural tendency to interpret the death of Jesus as the sacrifice is harking back to the Old Testament.
    I don’t see death of Jesus as the sacrifice necessary for us to win back favor of the Deity. I see his willing step of laying down his life as an act of love, his love for humanity and for reasons that are possibly beyond our comprehension.
    Have a good night.

  • #190028

    OK, let me play dumb for the sake of the argument (comes rather naturally for me ). What would you define as “really enjoyable stuff of life?”
    [QUOTE=Esprit] <P style=”MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt” =Msonormal><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>The problem with heaven as I see it is, despite the glory of a sunrise and prancing around barefoot in daises while listening to the angels heavenly choir, most of the really enjoyable stuff of life is regarded as sinning; a definite no no in heaven ‚Äì bollocks!<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>[/QUOTE]

  • #190036

    adorasmith
    Member

    The truth about Brazil is that people are very religious/superstitious. That’s a fact that ain’t changing anytime soon. It’s a hodge-podge between Catholicism, “protestants”/evangelicals and other unconventional “whatevers.”

    Brazil has become a battlefield for various missionary groups and with Rome loosing its grip on its faithful devotees down here, they’ve also come out fighting – although their problems w pedofilia has hurt them. And then there are the “unconventionals:” Umbanda, spirtists, macomba and who-knows what else. I never even heard of Allan Kardec until I came to Brazil. Heck, they name streets after the dude! So yes, a lot of it is agravating but some comical, but it ain’t changing – so might as well sit back, kick your feet up and learn to deal with it. That’s my .02; not that anybody has asked for it… WinkAs Richard Pryor told Billl Cosby: “Have a @#$* Coke and smile.”

  • #190037

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Santa is a lie told by parents to children in order to have some fun with them on Christmas. But you know if you rearrange Santa into Satan just by moving around the last three letters.
    [/QUOTE]
    Once again, you show your total lack of knowledge about anything. Santa Claus stems from the ancient Dutch/German fest of Sinterklaas, Saint Nicholas, patron saint of children, who gave away his inherited fortune to orphans on his birth day. The Dutch and Germans that moved to the US brought this fest with them, in English Sinterklaas sounds like Santa Claus. Over the years, it moved to coincide with the day we celebrate the birth of Christ. (Which for obvious reasons is not in December).
    You are quite the Satan Idiot IMHO.

  • #190040

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Esprit] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results…QUOTE]

    <SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>

     

    So why keep posting the same message?Wacko<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>

    [/QUOTE]
    The answer to that question is obviously clear.
    Did you get the part where he hears voices?

  • #190047

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=BorisG]OK, let me play dumb for the sake of the argument (comes rather naturally for me ). What would you define as “really enjoyable stuff of life?”
    [/QUOTE] Subject to biblical interpretation, wherein it is suggested that the perfect man falls (sins) seven times dally; and we can assume that the only perfect man was Jesus who enjoyed sins of thought word and deed, what could possibly be left worth doing in heaven other than walking or floating about wearing a permanent Miss World smile’. In this context I agree with Bernard Shaw: Perpetual happiness? No man could stand it. Madness would ensue should Man not be allowed the full spectrum of human emotion. However, should the soul be fundamentally different to Man, what remnant of the consciousness of our being would be left to appreciate the joys of heaven? One is minded of pigs in sh*t. LOL

  • #190051

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    For me love of God comes naturally from recognition of the possibility of the gift of the eternal life among others….
    [/QUOTE]
    I still fail to see the “gift” part of “eternal life”.
    [QUOTE=Steven] I think the thing that blows my mind is that He decided to create the entire universe by simply breathing it from His mouth. 
    [/QUOTE]
    Really, just a breath?
    [QUOTE=Steven]
    Stars 10000 times bigger than our own Sun.  Planets more numerous than we could count in 1000 years.  But He decided that this earth would be where He created Man in His image.  He gave us free will and we disappointed Him.  But, He loved us so much that He decided to give us an out Рa way back to Him.  Simply accept the grace He gave us through the sacrifice of His Son.  [/QUOTE]
    It’s kind of odd, isn’t it? All this sheer randomness?
    Whatever makes you think we are the only ones?
    I find the theory that earth, some thousands of years ago was visited by aliens, than to even consider that the universe was made by a cough of god.
    It seems quite believable actually. Several peoples around the globe, at almost the same time speak of deities that descend from the heavens, and “angels” that can fly. They even start building pyramids, all around the same time. They all develop a vast knowledge of astrology at almost the same time.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    It is not just stars, it is galaxies, super-galaxies, the whole extent of space, matter, energy… and a lot more. It is important that all of these aggregates are apparently devoid of free will, they must go on. We don’t we have the power of choice.[/QUOTE]
    So the fact that galaxies are devoid of free will, is proof of god now?
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    If we are to believe that we are children of God, then it follows that we are bound to dissapoint. This is part of growing up and learning. It is refreshing to believe that our errors are forgiven if we want them to be forgiven.[/QUOTE]
    Why, because it enables us to make errors?
    If I make an error, I just bang my head on the wall for a while, learn from it and try not to do it again. Why would I need to be forgiven?
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    … haven’t thought of it like this. I think that in such a case thanking would be nice and a sign of good breeding, but futile and irrelevant…
    [/QUOTE]
    No it isn’t. Talking is what gives us an edge in evolution. If we did not have that specific shape of our mouth, our tongue, lips and our vocal cords, we would not be able to disseminate knowledge in such an effective way. Who knows, maybe if horses had mouths, tongues, lips and vocal cords that allowed for speech, they would actually be more intelligent than us. Of course they would also probably need thumbs too.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Not seeing how that relates to God,[/QUOTE]
    In the DSM-IV, a “folie a deux” is defined as a “shared psychosis”, a delusion shared by one or more people. It can be imposed by dominant people. Of course the DSM-IV excludes beliefs that are shared by a culture or a people, and, as such excludes religion.
    However, knowing that the “folie a deux” can be imposed by a dominant person, it’s not so far fetched to say that religion is a massive “folie a deux” imposed by dominant persons. You don’t have to go far to see this, go to your friendly IURD temple at your street corner and you’ll see how a dominant person induces a delusion.
    It would also clarify how religion is passed from parents to their children, the dominant persons in the life of a child can easilly influence the child to have the same delusion.
    Ron L Hubbart was e very dominant fiction/fantasy writer that succeeded in founding his own “religion”, a delusion based on science fiction.
    David Koresh was also a dominant person who was able to create a delusion among his followers.
    [QUOTE=BorisG] OK, let me play dumb for the sake of the argument (comes rather naturally for me ). What would you define as “really enjoyable stuff of life?”
    [/QUOTE]
    BBQ, Beer, women ….

  • #190054

    evogel
    Member

    Sven you are an atheist and a bit of an a** as well I take it. IMHO you are more ignorant than you are intelligent. You may have some intelligence when it comes to the world but when it comes to the spiritual you are completely oblivious. Time to step off your high horse or be thrown down, you have stepped into uncharted territory. But it’s cool …. you can still learn. And hearing God’s voice is an awesome thing…. your ignorance just comes forth when you make comments about things you have no clue about. Experience is the true teacher and I think you have very little.

  • #190055

    evogel
    Member

    The fact that your three favorite things in life are sex, drugs, and food shows how carnal you are.

  • #190057

    [QUOTE=sven] I still fail to see the “gift” part of “eternal life”.[/QUOTE]
    It is a form of speech. In short, if there are arrangenments made for the existence continuation past the portals of material death, I haven’t contributed to it yet, hence the gift part. Don’t be too harsh on me, let’s chat on the other side and compare notes.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    So the fact that galaxies are devoid of free will, is proof of god now?[/QUOTE]
    Of course, not, just a point.
    [QUOTE=sven]
    Why, because it enables us to make errors?
    If I make an error, I just bang my head on the wall for a while, learn from it and try not to do it again. Why would I need to be forgiven?[/QUOTE]
    Because your actions could involve other beings. You are not interacting with software only, are you?
    [QUOTE=sven]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    … haven’t thought of it like this. I think that in such a case thanking would be nice and a sign of good breeding, but futile and irrelevant…
    [/QUOTE]
    No it isn’t. Talking is what gives us an edge in evolution. If we did not have that specific shape of our mouth, our tongue, lips and our vocal cords, we would not be able to disseminate knowledge in such an effective way. Who knows, maybe if horses had mouths, tongues, lips and vocal cords that allowed for speech, they would actually be more intelligent than us. Of course they would also probably need thumbs too.
    [/QUOTE]
    If grandma had balls she’d be a…. grandpa.

  • #190058

    evogel
    Member

    SO where does knowledge come from….. must have been evolution! (insert sarcasm)
    Thing with me is…. I am good and bad just like the rest of the world…. thing is I will admit it. A few things that bring out the worse in me …. can include…. 1. nagging women ….. 2. “smart” people aka (trolls) that do not know or have any reasonable limits for themselves in civilized conversation. I have to remind myself that some people just have not grown up yet and it is the internet. Some playful banter is fun it takes a mature person to understand when enough is enough “good example is laughing in someones face after you have insulted them…” anyhow……
    cobrakhan52011-11-29 08:22:36

  • #190059

    evogel
    Member

    And I met the Holy Spirit before I ever read the Bible….I opened it up after and the book explained what had happened to me when I myself could not explain it… all I knew was I had been changed!!!! …….. please stop reciting gibberish you read in a book or over the internet and start giving me some cold hard facts and or experiences. You can’t and this is why I keep seeing rambling about evolution this….. science that…… yet none of it is proven…. wow and I am sitting here telling amazing miracles that God has done in my life and what I see Him do in others lives daily. Then we spout some random facts about how people are killed and bunch more propaganda….well guess what…. one thing is certain in your life…. your body will die and nothing you can do about it.

  • #190060

    evogel
    Member

    Now the rest of you can get saved. = Meaning soul and spirit can be redeemed.cobrakhan52011-11-29 08:39:24

  • #190061

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] The fact that your three favorite things in life are sex, drugs, and food shows how carnal you are.[/QUOTE]
    When did I mention sex and drugs???

  • #190062

    evogel
    Member

    Alcohol = drug ….. women meaning plural = sex …. not like you said “my wife” it is all inferred from deductive reasoning. Not difficult =………. and seriously out of everything that was said .. this was the most impressive part? /facepalm cobrakhan52011-11-29 08:56:03

  • #190063

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Don’t be too harsh on me, let’s chat on the other side and compare notes.[/QUOTE]
    According to your new, born again cristian zealot friend, there will be no other side for me
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Of course, not, just a point.[/QUOTE]
    To….
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Because your actions could involve other beings. You are not interacting with software only, are you?[/QUOTE]
    Of course not, but when I say “why would I need forgiveness”, that would be forgiveness from our friend, god. Obviously, I am a social being, and my essence is what others think of me, so the need for forgiveness of them is too obvious to even mention.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    If grandma had balls she’d be a…. grandpa.
    [/QUOTE]
    Funny, I know someones grandpa that has tits, but it’s still the grandpa.

  • #190064

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Alcohol = drug ….. women meaning plural = sex …. not like you said “my wife” it is all inferred from deductive reasoning. Not difficult =………. and seriously out of everything that was said .. this was the most impressive part? /facepalm [/QUOTE]
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    ……………………………..,<`..__,-&“…………….`
    In deductive reasoning, for the conclusion to be true, the premises must also be true.
    Whether alcohol is a drug is a matter of discussion, so can’t be considered as true.
    The fact that I mention women as plural, does not naturally mean just for me, nor does it naturally imply sex.
    your conclusion might have been right if I had mentioned “sex, drugs and rock and roll”.
    Neither did I mention “food”. I was very specific on BBQ. In Brazil, BBQ is not about the food, it’s about the company you do it with. BBQ means family, friends, drinking beer together, eating a bit, having a conversation. It’s like going to church for you.

  • #190065

    evogel
    Member

    all premised around drinking…. I am not an idiot…. I know sex and alcohol go hand in hand….. but still carnal discussion… I want experiences from you besides drinking and women… I already know all about that…. I am talking about higher things……. lets “evolve”

  • #190066

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] “smart” people aka (trolls) that do not know or have any reasonable limits for themselves in civilized conversation.
    [/QUOTE]
    If the limits of civilized conversation is trolling about Jesus and God on a Forum on Brazil, then count me out for civil converstation.
    Why don’t you take your “civilized conversation” here

  • #190067

    evogel
    Member

    No one is forcing you to follow this forum…. now we have a great example of free will.

  • #190069

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] I want experiences from you besides drinking and women…[/QUOTE]
    I experienced the total absence of god
    He doesn’t talk to me, he doesn’t visit me, he shows me with is rampant killings of my fellow human beings, that he doesn’t exist.
    I also experienced religious zealots like you, having been married to an evangelical women.
    Nothing funnier than watching the face of someone that, after you tell them you’re an atheist, just asked you Ventão quem criou você” and you answer “my parrents”
    If you consider the existence of god, intelligent design and universal fatherhood, how can you preach that “god doesn’t like music” If god is the creator and universal parent, it would be reasonable to assume that it was him who gave someone the gift of making music, and if he gave the gift of music to someone, he must like music.
    I’ve never seem a bigger bunch of hypocrites. I have seen people, true believers, sell stuff on sunday, but claim they could not accept or handle money, so they tell you to put it on the table.
    Religious zealots imho are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

  • #190070

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Now the rest of you can get saved. = Meaning soul and spirit can be redeemed.[/QUOTE]
    The bible is actually quite clear, only 144000 can be saved! And to be saved one must belong to one of the 12 tribes of israel.
    Revelations 7:5-8
    At 0.002, I say your chance of salvation are pretty small

  • #190071

    evogel
    Member

    Well I could say all atheists are going to hell…. but I do not know that for sure, God is the ultimate judge. This is called a generalization, For all I know God could come in right now and fill the room you are in and change you eternally. Just because you had a wife who was “evangelical” and FYI just because someone calls themselves evangelical does not make them saved or catholic for that matter. You had a bad experience really gives little scope to the infinite universe and the purpose of life. I have had crazy women in my life too … they come in all shapes and sizes, that is part of a woman’s curse. I have also done stupid things in my life which I prefer not to repeat. Our life is made up of many experiences. I do not tell anyone to do anything…. except to repent and believe God…. listen to whatever music you want for all I care =)

  • #190072

    evogel
    Member

    Chapter 7 is the sixth seal….. did you bother to read what happened to the others?

  • #190074

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]crazy women … they come in all shapes and sizes[/QUOTE]
    Like men. But I didn’t say my wife was crazy, just a zealot, like you.
    But the people around her… Like the idiot preaching that god doesnt like music.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5], that is part of a woman’s curse. [/QUOTE]
    Why are they cursed?
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I have also done stupid things in my life which I prefer not to repeat.
    [/QUOTE]
    I’m all ears

  • #190075

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Chapter 7 is the sixth seal….. did you bother to read what happened to the others?[/QUOTE]
    Nope, I watched the movie

  • #190078

    evogel
    Member

    Again religion was defined as helping the poor, the widows, and orphans. So as per this definition I take religious zealot as a compliment =)

  • #190079

    evogel
    Member

    The human race is cursed it is called the wages of sin and death.

  • #190081

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Again religion was defined as helping the poor, the widows, and orphans. [/QUOTE]
    Oh, AFIK religion is defined as:
    “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.”
    Helping the poor is not specific to religious people, Nor is helping widows or orphans.
    I know many non-religious people that do that, and I know many religious people that don’t.
    Many evangelical churches only exist to make money for their “pastors”.
    The owners of Renascer where in Prison for money laundring. Silas Malafaia owns a 12 million R$ plane.
    The Catholic church supposedly owns several billion worth in solid gold. It’s infact the worlds largest owner of assets around the world. Heck, the archdiosesis of Boston alone is worth 571 million US$.
    With the acumulated fortune of all these religions, poverty could eliminated.
    However, they continuously charge 10% to all those poor slobs. The poorer the area, the bigger the church.
    They are not interested AT ALL in helping the poor, just in filling their pockets (proof that armageddon isn’t close)sven2011-11-29 10:24:49

  • #190083

    evogel
    Member

    You are still making generalizations. Every situation is on a case by case basis….. it is lazy to sit back and generalize…. experiences man …. I want experiences. I have bathed these threads in my experience. I spent 2 years of my life in India helping orphans, poor and widows….. I have also been to mega churches which I do not care for…. please stop being the guy who sits and complains about the world but does nothing to help it. And sitting on these threads complaining about how religion sucks and doing jack in your life to help the less fortunate. In my opinion is hypocritical.cobrakhan52011-11-29 10:53:44

  • #190085

    evogel
    Member

    And your definition of religion is a bit less refined than mine =/ I look beyond the “institution”

  • #190088

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] You are still making generalizations.[/QUOTE]
    Nope, I just mention some basic facts about some religions.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    I spent 2 years of my life in India helping orphans, poor and widows….. [/QUOTE]

    And I spent 2 years of my life in Brazil to help poor orphans. In those 2 years I helped building thishome and school for 150 orphans.
    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]
    please stop being the guy who sits and complains about the world but does nothing to help it.[/QUOTE]
    You presume too much.

  • #190092

    evogel
    Member

    I have a very hard time believing you how about some pictures of you with the orphans?

  • #190094

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I have a very hard time believing you how about some pictures of you with the orphans?[/QUOTE] Well you claim that god exists. How about some pictures of you and him?LOL

  • #190095

    evogel
    Member

    Ok fair enough =) …. interesting you jump in the conversation to be a troll though

  • #190096

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fortaleza-Newf] [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]I have a very hard time believing you how about some pictures of you with the orphans?[/QUOTE]

    Well you claim that god exists. How about some pictures of you and him?LOL[/QUOTE]
    I was just about to ask that.

  • #190098

    evogel
    Member

    And the point he made will go both ways. Just because you can not see God doesn’t mean He does not exist…. obvious example is the wind. cobrakhan52011-11-29 12:21:34

  • #190099

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] And the point he made will go both ways. Just because you can not see God doesn’t mean He does not exist…. obvious example is the wind. [/QUOTE]
    But I can use smoke to see wind. I could, if I would show you a picture, but I won’t, among other reasons because this was in 1995,96 and 97, and the pictures are not digitalized, you however, couldn’t, even if you wanted to, show me a picture of you and your creator.
    The only one I know that can show a picture of him and his creator is Pinocchio, which by the way is the name of the orfanage.

  • #190100

    evogel
    Member

    The wind sir…. the wind sir….. the wind sir. Got it? Understand the concept? The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples like a rushing mighty wind…. Thank God!!!

  • #190104

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples like a rushing mighty wind[/QUOTE]
    Yeah, and god created the universe with a cough

  • #190106

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

  • #190110

    evogel
    Member

    God help this man.

  • #190111

    evogel
    Member

    Jesus loves you!

  • #190112

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]The wind sir…. the wind sir….. the wind sir. Got it? Understand the concept? …QUOTE]

    Wind? In common with flatulence, one cannot see it yet it can be heard and, unfortunately, just like your posts, causes offence to the olfactory senses; BS. Sleepy

  • #190114

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Jesus loves you! [/QUOTE]
    That’s his problem, I’m heterosexual!

  • #190115

    evogel
    Member
  • #190116

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Esprit] Wind? In common with flatulence, one cannot see it yet it can be heard and, unfortunately, just like your posts, causes offence to the olfactory senses;[/QUOTE]
    Now I get why my ex always said “meu deus” when I farted…

  • #190117

    evogel
    Member

    The second guy on that video ….. is not sounding very bright to me.cobrakhan52011-11-29 14:21:28

  • #190118

    evogel
    Member

    All he says is I don;t understand…. I don;t understand .. I don;t understand lol…. I thin k you should just start saying that Sven …. you may be better off

  • #190119

    Kevinferno
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=Esprit] Wind? In common with flatulence, one cannot see it yet it can be heard and, unfortunately, just like your posts, causes offence to the olfactory senses;[/QUOTE]

    Now I get why my ex always said “meu deus” when I farted…[/QUOTE] That’s why you need to do this often around her to desensitize her to such vices and make it normal. I know from experience! LOLThe same advice applies to deal with Cobrakan, our very own Jimmy Swaggart…or perhaps Jim Baker. ConfusedFortaleza-Newf2011-11-29 14:26:57

  • #190124

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] All he says is I don;t understand…. I don;t understand .. I don;t understand lol…. I thin k you should just start saying that Sven …. you may be better off [/QUOTE]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGtcVoBhBQ&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H9BuxeNro0&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaJelU29jeI&NR=1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpqeZirDqU&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG_XZ8BuWm0
    And I just know you might learn something here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSmTPThWD_c&feature=fvwrel

  • #190126

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant
  • #190128

    evogel
    Member

    I understand life without God…… I was not always a believer.

  • #190129

    evogel
    Member

    I understand you perfectly… but the thing is you are unwilling to understand God.

  • #190130

    evogel
    Member

    Sorry I am not related to any apes….. we have gone over this lol…. sorry but I have to say it….. you have to be a serious idiot to believe that nonsense.

  • #190131

    Mel_
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Sorry I am not related to any apes….. we have gone over this lol…. sorry but I have to say it….. you have to be a serious idiot to believe that nonsense.[/QUOTE]
    Holy lord. First I thought you were a troll. Then I thought you were mentally ill. Now I just think you are a happy idiot.

  • #190133

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=atheism+vs+christianity&view=detail&mid=8C684AB150B61569F80C8C684AB150B61569F80C&first=0&FORM=LKVR2
    Skepticism and cynicism ….. parasites[/QUOTE]
    That bible wielding zealot is a hoot. “it’s true because of the way it’s written”. I stopped when he came with the biblical archeology argument.
    Biblical archeology is a pseudo science. There is a lot of discussion on the subject. Even cristian scientist consider it, at minimum extremely biased. Of course, if you go look for things you can consider “biblical” in the desert of Israel, you might find things that seem like what you are looking for. The opposite is much more complex. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t deny that the bible describes historical facts. I just deny the existence of a god.

  • #190134

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] unwilling to understand God.[/QUOTE]
    Not unwilling, but unable. No way to understand “nothing”.
    That said, even. If god existed, you wouldn’t be able to understand him anyway.

  • #190151

    Gianni
    Member

    If I’m not mistaken you should be on his side? Didn’t Jew-bash me a while back? At the same time made it clear of your mother’s mother’s mother’s friend or something of relation?
    The Steve guy is another run of the mill with fascinating ideas about galaxies!
    Boris…. (head shake)…

  • #190158

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=BorisG] Don’t be too harsh on me, let’s chat on the other side and compare notes.[/QUOTE]
    According to your new, born again cristian zealot friend, there will be no other side for me [/QUOTE]
    No problem, I will visit you in hell. I am pretty sure there’d be tours and independent vacation packages
    [QUOTE=sven]
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Because your actions could involve other beings. You are not interacting with software only, are you?[/QUOTE]
    Of course not, but when I say “why would I need forgiveness”, that would be forgiveness from our friend, god. Obviously, I am a social being, and my essence is what others think of me, so the need for forgiveness of them is too obvious to even mention.[/QUOTE]
    Actually, the way I see it that we need to learn to forgive ourselves and others, once we do, it would be very easy to see that we are forgiven.
    For God it is probably very easy to forgive, it is much harder for us to learn to forgive and to accept forgivness.

  • #190159

    [QUOTE=Gringodude] Boris…. (head shake)… [/QUOTE]
    Am I that hopeless?

  • #190161

    Gianni
    Member

    Quite, so please admit you’re a christian already!Gringodude2011-11-29 20:26:27

  • #190185

    evogel
    Member

    Being a Christian = Child of the living God, is the best possible thing that can happen to anyone. But many claim to be Christians and they have not received the Holy Spirit which is necessary to be a child of God.cobrakhan52011-11-30 08:51:14

  • #190188

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] Being a Christian = Child of the living God, is the best possible thing that can happen to anyone. [/QUOTE]
    I hope you know to differentiate between opinion and fact. Yours is just an opinion, your opinion.

  • #190189

    [QUOTE=Gringodude]Quite, so please admit you’re a christian already![/QUOTE] I have nothing against christians, but I am not one.

  • #190190

    evogel
    Member

    No it is fact =) I think I have more experience in this area than you, but thanks for your opinion.

  • #190191

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5] No it is fact =) I think I have more experience in this area than you, but thanks for your opinion.[/QUOTE]
    sven2011-11-30 09:31:25

  • #190193

    evogel
    Member

    He never gives up…. so that is misrepresentation of the truth.

  • #190199

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=cobrakhan5]No it is fact =) I think I have more experience in this area than you, but thanks for your opinion.[/QUOTE]
    it is not a fact it is actually opinion because it is something that you think is true, not something that can be proven.

  • #190201

    Gianni
    Member

    You have nothing against them, so you’re with them! What are you doing this sunday?

  • #190207

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=hpeak13]it is not a fact it is actually opinion because it is something that you think is true, not something that can be proven.[/QUOTE]
    Give up, you need a brain to understand the distinction.

  • #190211

    Gianni
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] [QUOTE=hpeak13]it is not a fact it is actually opinion because it is something that you think is true, not something that can be proven.[/QUOTE]
    Give up, you need a brain to understand the distinction.[/QUOTE]
    You tried your best, you tried!

  • #190238

    Cici
    Member

    FACT – if there was a “god” he would terminate this thread before page 60 LOL%20...%20Shift+R%20improves%20the%20quality%20of%20this%20image.%20CTRL+F5%20reloads%20the%20whole%20page.LOL%20...%20Shift+R%20improves%20the%20quality%20of%20this%20image.%20CTRL+F5%20reloads%20the%20whole%20page.

  • #190270

    [QUOTE=Gringodude] You have nothing against them, so you’re with them! What are you doing this sunday? [/QUOTE]
    Faulty reasoning. No, I am not with them. Sunday, let’s see… got to find a virgin to sacrifice. They are so hard to come by these days

  • #190273

    Gianni
    Member

    You’re Chri-curious, the humble relationship you and Steve have, I bet a heavenly sunday is appropriate. One bible, two children of God, and a proper Sunday-school “christening”…
    Best of luck to you!

  • #190279

    Thank you, GD, you are very kind.
    Yet, I sense a lot of latent hostility. One doesn’t have to be a Christian to hold Jesus in high regard. He, for example, is regarded as a prophet in Islam, and as a very worthwhile and wise human being even by many reknown atheists.
    My reasons for not joining any Christian church or denomination are as follows:
    1. Christianity in general is a teaching about Jesus, not teaching of Jesus.
    2. It has accumulated too much baggage from Mithraic and other mystery cults as well as much superstitious and evolving religion concepts from Judaism, pagan mythologies, and other “ancient swamps”.
    I hope I made myself clear in some of the previous posts on my position regarding the Bible and organized religions in general.
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] You’re Chri-curious, the humble relationship you and Steve have, I bet a heavenly sunday is appropriate. One bible, two children of God, and a proper Sunday-school “christening”…
    Best of luck to you![/QUOTE]

  • #190284

    Gianni
    Member

    [QUOTE=BorisG] Thank you, GD, you are very kind.
    Yet, I sense a lot of latent hostility. One doesn’t have to be a Christian to hold Jesus in high regard. He, for example, is regarded as a prophet in Islam, and as a very worthwhile and wise human being even by many reknown atheists.
    My reasons for not joining any Christian church or denomination are as follows:
    1. Christianity in general is a teaching about Jesus, not teaching of Jesus.
    2. It has accumulated too much baggage from Mithraic and other mystery cults as well as much superstitious and evolving religion concepts from Judaism, pagan mythologies, and other “ancient swamps”.
    I hope I made myself clear in some of the previous posts on my position regarding the Bible and organized religions in general.
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] You’re Chri-curious, the humble relationship you and Steve have, I bet a heavenly sunday is appropriate. One bible, two children of God, and a proper Sunday-school “christening”…
    Best of luck to you![/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
    You certainly have! I am glad to see “Jesus” is in your heart, but somehow, indirectly according to your clarifications!

  • #190288

    Steven
    Participant

    Interesting that this topic is rapidly approaching 10,000 views. I give credit to my colleague Cobrakhan5 for his persistent application of the Great Commission to this Forum. His postings, albeit brief, keep the discussion going and gives the Holy Spirit opportunity to enter the heart of perhaps one reader. Maybe even Sven. Who knows?

  • #190290

    hoganti
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven]Interesting that this topic is rapidly approaching 10,000 views. I give credit to my colleague Cobrakhan5 for his persistent application of the Great Commission to this Forum. His postings, albeit brief, keep the discussion going and gives the Holy Spirit opportunity to enter the heart of perhaps one reader. Maybe even Sven. Who knows?[/QUOTE]
    hahaha…you think his ministering is working??? hahahaha

  • #190291

    Gianni
    Member

    Ignorant zealot, hallelujah!

  • #190292

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Gringodude]Ignorant zealot, hallelujah!

    [/QUOTE] Always interesting that the faithful are called ignorant by the lost.

  • #190295

    Gianni
    Member

    I’m not lost, several times I have clearly identified my heritage/cultural beliefs. Unfortunately due to being obsessively blinded by the jahaba-blahblah tone of your prospective you and your commrad leave the rest of us wondering…
    Re-adjust the status-quo and I’m certain you could put up a decent ideology…

  • #190296

    Anonymous

    Following the conclusions by Sigmund Freud, psychopathology studies have associated religiosity with neurosis and mental illness. Analysis has concluded that the God need is most prevalent in those who have a tendency to what can only be described as mental instability. We are flawed and insecure creatures therefore a belief or faith system can have a stabilizing effect for those in need of answers to what they may regard as threatening questions concerning mortality. In the main a faith system is, on balance, a harmless pursuit given that it gives a feeling of comfort and security.Confused

  • #190298

    Gianni
    Member

    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    <SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”>Following the conclusions by Sigmund Freud, psychopathology studies have associated religiosity with neurosis and mental illness.<SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬† </SPAN>Analysis has concluded that the God need is most prevalent in those who have a tendency to what can only be described as mental instability. We are flawed and insecure creatures therefore a belief or faith system can have a stabilizing effect for those in need of answers to what they may regard as threatening questions concerning mortality. In the main a faith system is</SPAN><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>,</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”> on balance</SPAN><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>,</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”> a harmless pursuit given that it gives a feeling of comfort and security.Confused<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>

    [/QUOTE]
    That’s already a given understanding among the faithful, you need to use your accumulated knowledge to point out, precisely, why, in a way our buddy Steven might understand..

  • #190299

    I am sorry to see the Religionfull and Religionless teams exchange crude ad hominems and cliché arguments. How about a challenge? a structured debate?
    [QUOTE=Esprit]

    <SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”>Following the conclusions by Sigmund Freud, psychopathology studies have associated religiosity with neurosis and mental illness.<SPAN style=”mso-spacerun: yes”>¬† </SPAN>Analysis has concluded that the God need is most prevalent in those who have a tendency to what can only be described as mental instability. We are flawed and insecure creatures therefore a belief or faith system can have a stabilizing effect for those in need of answers to what they may regard as threatening questions concerning mortality. In the main a faith system is</SPAN><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>,</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”> on balance</SPAN><SPAN style=”FONT-FAMILY: ‘Arial’,’sans-serif’; mso-ansi-: EN-GB” lang=EN-GB>,</SPAN><SPAN style=”mso-ansi-: EN” lang=EN><FONT face=”Times New Roman”> a harmless pursuit given that it gives a feeling of comfort and security.Confused<?:namespace prefix = o ns = “urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office” /><o:p></o:p></SPAN>

    [/QUOTE]

  • #190300

    Anonymous

    Structured debate is impossible; it’s a chicken and egg conundrum. Did Man create the concept of God or did God create Man? There are some facts and then there’s faith. If one needs a God then God exists for those who have faith. Tic tack toe or mutually assured exasperation. God can neither be disproved nor proved. Some need God for personal reasons while others are taking a more pragmatic view on their existence. Cool

  • #190304

    [QUOTE=Esprit] Structured debate is ipossible; it’s a chicken and egg conundrum. [/QUOTE]
    Only if you insist on thinking inside the box. There are deeper issues at stake here. You almost made me tell one of those chicken and egg in bed jokes…. I am glad I got a hold of myself beforehand.
    A little critical thinking applied renders this false dilemma non-existent. Even from a purely rational and biologic perspective it is clear that eggs predated chickens, for they are reproductive vehicles for reptiles that came about long before the birds have. So, my bet is on the egg.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]Man create the concept of God or did God create Man? [/QUOTE]
    Why can’t it be both? God doing his creative work directly or indirectly and man eventually conceive and evolve concept of a Creator that might or not correspond to reality.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]There are some facts and then there’s faith. [/QUOTE]
    What facts? Chances are that looking deeper we might find out that what we deem to be facts are not and that faith that seems irrational and illogical is anything but…
    [QUOTE=Esprit]one needs a God then God exists for those who have faith. Tic tack toe or mutually assured exasperation. [/QUOTE]
    Still better then mutually assured destruction…
    [QUOTE=Esprit]God can neither be disproved nor proved. Some need God for personal reasons while others are taking a more pragmatic view on their existence.[/QUOTE]
    Here I agree, yet I still think that we could learn a lot through the debate…

  • #190306

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=BorisG]

    …Here I agree, yet I still think that we could learn a lot through the debate… [/QUOTE]

    Of course there’s a lot to be learned provided we start with a blank sheet. The concept of God the creator of all things must first be cast aside when we can take a more pragmatic view of life when we can approach its joys independent of the confusion of an afterlife; why should there be more? After all, few would believe in God were it not for this concept. This entire fear psychosis is predicated on the joys of heaven. Serious consideration should be given to this issue: in the absence of heaven would there be belief in God?

  • #190311

    Gianni
    Member

    Would someone start with the facts not including faith… Anyone? (echo), I didn’t think so! And there is your problem, the group who were left at their mission camp a little too long.. The so called faith has steeped a little too long

  • #190332

    [QUOTE=Esprit] Of course there’s a lot to be learned provided we start with a blank sheet. [/QUOTE]
    Hmmmm, I think it is possible. How would you suggest we set up the original premises?
    [QUOTE=Esprit]The concept of God the creator of all things must first be cast aside when we can take a more pragmatic view of life when we can approach its joys independent of the confusion of an afterlife; why should there be more?[/QUOTE]
    I think it is doable, yet, it seems to me that human life should be looked at from the perspective of the reality context, social context, moral context, biological context, etc. I think that inevitable that the concept of the God as the creator would at some point pop up.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]After all, few would believe in God were it not for this concept. This entire fear psychosis is predicated on the joys of heaven. Serious consideration should be given to this issue: in the absence of heaven would there be belief in God? [/QUOTE]
    Agree here with you again. I see rich soil here for the discussion. I think that fear is misunderstood and much maligned. Also at this point, for example, GD, can step in with his knowledge of Judaism, for if I recall correctly, there is scarcely any afterlife worth of mentioning in one of the most outstanding monotheistic religions.

  • #190333

    I have no problem starting with facts. Which facts would you suggest we set up as the starting points? What would be the original premises?
    [QUOTE=Gringodude] Would someone start with the facts not including faith… Anyone? (echo), I didn’t think so! And there is your problem, the group who were left at their mission camp a little too long.. The so called faith has steeped a little too long [/QUOTE] BorisG2011-12-01 07:26:59

  • #190340

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Steven] His postings, albeit brief, keep the discussion going and gives the Holy Spirit opportunity to enter the heart of perhaps one reader.  Maybe even Sven.  Who knows?[/QUOTE]
    I have always attended christian schools, both catholic and protestant. My parents had the good sense to not shove a religion down my throat, as my grandparents from my fathers side wanted.
    I remember well, the weekly bible readings in school, and what utter bollocks I thought it was. A man living in the belly of a whale for 3 days and 3 nights? Come on.
    [QUOTE=Steven]Always interesting that the faithful are called ignorant by the lost. [/QUOTE]
    That is because the ignorant call us lost.
    [QUOTE=Esprit]Following the conclusions by Sigmund Freud, psychopathology studies have associated religiosity with neurosis and mental illness. [/QUOTE]
    Hence my comments on a “folie a deux”…
    [QUOTE=Esprit]
    In the main a faith system is on balance a harmless pursuit given that it gives a feeling of comfort and security.[/QUOTE]
    The problem is that the pursuit not always remains harmless.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]for reptiles that came about long before the birds have. So, my bet is on the egg.[/QUOTE]
    By that, even through an “evolutionary” eye, you assume that birds and reptiles share a mutual ancestor that produced egg. The T-Rex is however far more closely related to modern birds than the crocodile. The T-Rex supposedly was a warm blooded dinosaur that laid eggs.
    My bet is not on the egg.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Why can’t it be both? God doing his creative work directly or indirectly and man eventually conceive and evolve concept of a Creator that might or not correspond to reality.[/QUOTE]
    And maybe the concept of a creator does not correspond to reality.
    Which is why debating the existence or non-existence of a creator is impossible with those that believe in the existence of a creator.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    What facts? Chances are that looking deeper we might find out that what we deem to be facts are not and that faith that seems irrational and illogical is anything but…[/QUOTE]
    The basic facts of life. Faith is just faith, it can only be proven, or disprove, in death. Even those that say the met their creator are unable to prove this. I can logically prove, to a six year old, that 1 + 1 = 2, and that 3 / 3 = 1. The existence of a “creator” can not be proven, and is the existence of a creator is only rational due to faith.
    [QUOTE=BorisG]
    Here I agree, yet I still think that we could learn a lot through the debate… [/QUOTE]
    A debate implies persuading others of the validity of your position, which of course is impossible when dealing with faith. There is no argument, however logical, that is able to persuade you that the creator does not exist, nor is there any argument by which an atheist suddenl