February 23, 2005 at 10:18 am #114522
hello all, i’ve just registered and have been reading interesting and detailed threads of those so anxious to stay in Brazil. I have been to-ing and fro-ing on tourist visas since 1998,got a student visa once and most recently turned 50,so I’m looking at retirement visa option as I have some money in a pension and thinking of declaring this and submitting forms to Brazilian Consulate with necessary bank transfer stipulation plus usual round of police record,legalised docs etc. The BIG problem is this $2000 per month requirement for this type of visa which as I am in England and the rate against the dollar is getting worse and worse…this means maybe ¬£1330..¬£1400 per month(and upwards maybe in months to come) as a pension. Really this is out of my pension fund range at the moment. Any advice from all you helpful guys and gals out there with any experience of how this monthly pension rate is ‘fixed’ for visa purposes and does the FULL amount apply in practice? Can it be topped up or does it ALL have to be the pension Also has anyone in Brazil have any experience of getting such a visa and the tax implications. Seen threads on similar lines before but they seem to have gone dead for the last six months.Thought I would reactivate such a fascinating topic. Any help gleefully received…..
February 24, 2005 at 6:19 pm #114595
With “olny” 50 years of age, you don’t qualify for the retirement visa anyway. If I’m not wrong you have to be at least 60 !
February 25, 2005 at 8:20 am #114614
No…50 years is definitely OK…from the UK at least. Money is the big problem. As I mentioned before, ¬£1300 to ¬£1400 per month equates to the need for a large fund…which is then I think taxed in the Uk…and then taxed in Brazil I think again (as their is no reciprocity agreement)…..The more I think about this it is really a millionaire’s route only (perhaps for retired British bankers and their fat pensions). It seems to me that the Brazilian permanent visa system is based on not restricting the wrong type of people entering the country but merely allowing entry to those who have ill gotten gains elsewhere that they can declare ‘legitimately’ for property or pension purposes or are happy to enter into some shady marriage arrangement with a partner attracted by the lure of an attractive financial incentive. The big bucks always wins…those with more modest intentions are excluded and Brazil gets the gringoes it deserves… Maybe it is the same everywhere and some legit people get in…some that post regularly on this forum but in general can most of us, hand on heart, say that they have actually run into many/any ‘permanent’ non-Brazilians who we would really trust?….
February 25, 2005 at 12:48 pm #114643
Sorry, but the amount required for retirment is NOT outlandish – it’s to help make sure that YOUR needs are paid for by YOU and not Brazil. You weren’t born here, therefor you have no right to expect the Brazilians to pick up the tab. Most people require more money than that to retire comfortably back home, and at 50 years of age (an unusual retirement age in any country I’d guess…), you are looking at a large number of years ahead of you. Since you claim you are retired and thus won’t be working here in Brazil, then why wouldn’t they expect that you have funds available?
I’m more surprised at your sour grapes attitude as it seems you think most people who moved here aren’t trustworthy.
You obviously need to do more homework, not only would you educate yourself about the reasons for Brazil’s visa requirements but you’d also come to learn that few people are here permanently just because of ‘ill-gotten gains’ or sham marriages.
I actually found your post kind of insulting.
February 25, 2005 at 6:45 pm #114670
Me too, I find your suggetion that all of us using this site and living in Brazil, are some kind of money launderers or married to gold diggers, rather insulting.
February 26, 2005 at 6:24 am #114695
[QUOTE=bobnbrazil2]Sorry, but the amount required for retirment is NOT outlandish – [/QUOTE]
I agree, also keep in mind the amount of US$ 2,000 is actually to support 3 persons, because the retirement visa is valid not only for the person who applies, but also for up to 2 additional peolple such as spouse and another person depending on the aplicant.
This way the amount is quiet reasonable and as mentioned abouve is is also to make sure you can support yourself completly.
February 26, 2005 at 12:55 pm #114717
It seems people read what they want to read…I wrote that legit people seemed to be people on these forums…but that the visa system is skewed to favour the rich as may be the case in other countries too. I notice the investment visa requirement is now being increased from $50,000 to $150,000…a three fold increase that seems to support my view. Can anyone else see the justification in this scale of rise other than an attempt to rake in more from the richest who want to invest? In the north-east this would buy a viilage. Is this what the system is designed to support? There are large tracts of land in Italian ownership in the North-East.Again, is this what Brazil wants? And on the point of the retirement pension of $2000 which is about R$4,500 per month…….this again assumes a certain lifestyle which I am happy that some of you may have but I do not need (and neither do the vast majority of Brazilians who have to live on far far less than this).Again, rich foreigners only please. How do you all earn your R$4500 per month?
February 26, 2005 at 1:21 pm #114718
Didn’t it go from US$50,000 to R$150,000? This doesn’t seem outlandish to me if you are really going to start a business and put people to work … which is the intention.
Where’s this village for 150k? Does it come with serfs?
February 26, 2005 at 1:36 pm #114719
Boringdave, If you can prove that you can bring in $2000/month, you will qualify for the retirement visa. You will most likely need all of it, depending on where you choose to live and on your lifestyle. And hey, not all expats here are like Ronnie Biggs!
February 26, 2005 at 1:39 pm #114720
I guess I don’t see the problem with ANY country making rules/laws/regulations on people coming to live within it’s borders. Brazil, US, UK – they can do what they want to make the requirements whatever. It’s the governments job to protect and serve the citizens of it’s country, not the people that want to live there. I’m an American, and lucky to be married to a Brazilian so I have my permanent visa. It took awhile, had to jump through some hoops, but played by Brazilian rules as it’s their country. I see nothing wrong with the requirement for the retirement visa or the investment visa. I don’t think it’s skewed to favor the rich at all. What country wants non-native poor people to flock to it’s borders? Oh, wait…I’m in the US and have lots of those crossing the borders. I mean, Brazil is just trying to invite the people that can sustain themselves. Hell, they have enough poor people…
February 26, 2005 at 1:40 pm #114721
Boringdave, Forgot to mention – the investment visa does not apply if you just buy property. You have to invest in or open a registered business, and you have to have a Brazilian partner.
February 26, 2005 at 1:48 pm #114722
Dunga…have you been to the North-East?…and I don’t mean the rich coastal strip that the tourists enjoy….visit the interior of the Northeastern states and you will see what $150,000 will buy.Unfortnately the people can be bought too…do you know about nordestino politics?
February 26, 2005 at 2:11 pm #114724
Which has WHATto do with allowing foreigners to move to Brazil?
You seem to think you have some ‘right’ to move to Brazil. You don’t. It is a priviledge, not a right. Just because you may have decided to retire early and want to go to a place where you think your money will tide you over doesn’t mean that Brazil has to accomodate you.
And for your information we WORK for our money, however much that may be. It is you who assumes that all of us live in the north. Parts of Brazil are much different, and also require a much higher cost of living. If you aren’t aware, prices have been rising in Brazil too, and the government is certainly going to make sure that anyone retiring here has the money needed to support themselves anywhere in the country.
February 26, 2005 at 2:55 pm #114728
BobinBrasil just have little read back where Dunga refers ironically to serfs in relation to the cost of a village in the northeast…which in turn referred to my point that $150,000 is a lot if you live in the North East.You obviousy don’t.Fair enough.But the sums of money for a retirement or investment visa would buy a lot in the North East…the real point being …..it is possible to live there on a much smaller amount of pension money as two thirds of Brazilians have to do from significantly less earned income. We all don’t want to live in the centre of Sao Paolo or Rio or BH but it is this assumption that seems to underlie the figures for a retirement pension even if you don’t believe my point that it is aimed at just allowing in the rich per se. I don’t begrudge Brazil letting in who they want but the reality is most enter by marriage,investment or overstay tourist visas.The first two at least can be bought by some with dubious motives and the third is left for the less wealthy types. Work visas are almost non-existent which is purely political but probably the one that if operated properly would most help Brazil by letting in those that can help those sectors of the economy that need help from outside workers regardless of their wealth.Just my view. Brazil and you are entitled to yours. I’m sure you work damned hard and good luck to you. In 10 years I have met more gringos I wouldn’t trust than would.Maybe you are in the latter category I don’t know and but gringos are not necessarliy as virtuous as they wish to appear in my experience in Brazil.There alwayas seems to be a hidden agenda. And for you ..if the cap doesn’t fit don’t wear it…so calm down and have a beer…..
February 26, 2005 at 3:34 pm #114732
I guess I’m a little confused. I don’t think $2000 a month is much money to live on in the US or UK at a level of any comfort. I know I sure in the hell couldn’t. And in Brazil, while the conversion to Reals right might seem pretty good, if you want to live very well there is still no wiggle room. It’s must not much money. Brazil is not looking for ‘the rich folk’ but people from other countries that can retire and still add to the economy by spending some money. I don’t see that as a bad thing. And the $150,000 you need for an investment visa is not a lot of money if you are investing in a business. My experience in any business in any country is you had better be well capitalized (lots of cash in the account) or you’ll be out of business fairly quick. In all reality, fifty grand was a joke. I would disagree with you that a marriage and investment visa can be ‘bought by some with dubious motives’. I tried to shortcut the system and my experience said it couldn’t be done. The paperwork is tedious and specific – which it should be as you are asking for the same rights as a ‘native’. I expect the same from my government in the US-not getting it, but that’s a different thread! No matter what type of visa you have – if you don’t have the money to buy a place outright in Brazil, you are going to have a hard time scratching out any kind of life on 2 grand a month by the time you pay any rent or mortgage. Yes, it can be done and some on this board will certainly chime in and give their own examples or people they know. And it’s really all relative and personal. But if you think 2 grand is unreasonable you are really going to have a tough time living in Brazil. Brazil, or any country want people to be sucessful. They want, or at least wish, for all to have a good quality of life. They don’t want foreigners starting new favelas… MovingSoon2009-02-27 15:35:14
February 26, 2005 at 3:45 pm #114733
Boringdave, You are making a lot of assumptions. Let’s get a few things straightened out. 1.) Some permanent visas are obtained by marriage or having offspring. Some of these work out and some don’t, just like everywhere else. A lot of gringoes are here because they met a person and wanted to stay, many aren’t. The combinations of reasons for being here are endless. I have never heard of anyone agreeing to pay anyone to marry them so that they could stay. Very improbable. 2.) If you overstay a tourist visa, you will have to pay a certain amount for each day that you overstay when you finally leave. I forget what the amount is, but overstaying 6 months will be very expensive, and you probably will be blocked from getting another visa for a while. 3.) Work visas are rare and the reason is Brazil has plenty of qualified and experienced people in all the industries. Brazil does not at this stage need help from foreigners. Just look at the Category 5 visa requirements. Every country has to protect its citizens. Try to get an EU work permit if you are not from there. Ditto for a L1 or B1 visa in the U.S. 4.) There are Brazilians you can trust and those that you cannot trust. A lot of them, in the tourist areas will add on a gringo tax. But they also add on a Paulista tax in the N and NE, and so on. Most of it is just a harmless try-on. You just have to be careful. 5.) Of most interest to you, in another thread, the amount required to live with basic comfort in São Paulo (the city) was more or less agreed to be around R$3500 for a young single guy, with a good lifestyle, paying rent. Away from the cities, you could live on this quite comfortably (1000 GBP). But it depends on exactly where. A lot of locals live on much, muchless than this, you probably would not enjoy their lifestyle. I am joining BobinBrasil for a beer, it is about that time. Cheers, Bob!
February 26, 2005 at 4:29 pm #114739
Bobnbrazil2 ‘My partner already paid the fine for my over-stay (it was the maximum amount, so was easy to pre-pay). And while I’m only planning to be there for 8 days total, we’ve planned out things just in case I need to stay a few days longer’……. an extract from your recent e-mail on another thread that I was just reading by accident.Your entries on this don’t quite support your lecturing me on your work ethic or indeed on your holier than though attitude to staying in Brazil… People in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones…..
February 26, 2005 at 5:01 pm #114741
I didn’t move here on a retirement visa, never claimed that I did, and quite frankly you haven’t a clue as to what I do, nor do you have a clue as to any work ethic anyone has. Nowhere do I hold MY work ethic up for comparison. I think you just don’t like getting your way, thus anyone pointing that out to you is ‘lecturing’.
I’m here legally after a year spend going through all the hoops and following all the rules to become legal. What’s your point? You are the one whining about not wanting to go through similar hoops.
If you want to retire to Brazil, then more power to you. I’m going for that beer now.
February 26, 2005 at 6:39 pm #114747
Okay, I don’t have a retirement visa and know nothing about them, but I have been living here in the NE for 5 years and have been attempting to make ends meet. Lets look at some essentials for you so you can see where you fall.
What kinds of enmities are you looking for in your city? Do you want internet where you retire? Keep in mind that many places in the NE interior do not have it unless they are looking for tourists (i.e. higher prices, which you would like to avoid). Same for cellphone service for many companies. Some places you can’t get a land line just put in either, that make take months.
What kinds of food are you planning to eat? Many foods are not cheap here, although you get used to the prices after a while. How many people will eat in your household? Will you be satisfied with just bread, butter, eggs, rice and beans or do you need more variance in your diet? Do you plan to drink beer (make a big budget section for this)?
Will you have a maid? Cable (can you get it?) or satellite? Do you plan to buy some basic stuff for your house like a washing machine and a refrigerator and stove?
Will you have a car? Insurance? How often will you drive? Will you want to take trips to other parts of Brasil or will you just stay home all the time? Will you want to eat out once in a while at something other than a PF place?
How much of this will you be willing to give up to live here on retirement? It may be a lot or a little depending on where you live and what you plan to live on. The comment made about gringoes making new favelas is lighthearted, but it’s something to think about when you seem to feel that since so many Brasilians can get by on less money that you will be able to too.
February 27, 2005 at 9:13 am #114772
The US$2000a month figure for the retirement visa is a pre-tax figure. Pensions in theexterior are taxable monthly upon remittance at normal income tax rates. Ninemonths ago a recipient might have netted less than R$3000 (2000×1.80x 80%).That‚Äôs not a lot of money but I‚Äôm not saying you can‚Äôt live on it.
TheUS$50,000 for the individual investor has gone up to R$150,000 (that‚Äôs /2.35 =US$63,830 today) cry me a river. This is not realistically enough money to startmost productive businesses, the kind that will contribute jobs and growth tothe Brazilian economy. This is probably what it takes to get your shop oroffice ready and would leave nothing for inventory, salaries or capital degiro‚Äô. Maybe you could open a
tacosalgado stand or a Bar de Promoção‚Äô.
Maybe mosthere have forgotten, or don’t know, that the RN 60 which came into effect in2004 lowered the investment amount from US$200,000 to US$50,000. The way Iunderstand it this was, or became, a political gift to NE constructioninterests who hoped to sell an ever increasing number of beach side apartmentsto N. Americans and EU citizens who would use the purchase as a passiveinvestment. But US$50,000 is chump change in a place like Santa Catarina and Ialways thought there would be push back from these areas, especially at thetime of the (then) 5-year RNE renewal.
The mostimportant difference in the new RN 84 is that it requires a productiveinvestment, one characterized by the generation employment and income inBrazil, by the augmentation of productivity, by the assimilation of newtechnologies and by the acquisition of new resources. But there is also someflexibility. Per the statute, the R$150,000 amount can be lowered throughreview of your investment plan by the Conselho Nacional de Imigração,taking into account number of jobs created, the value of the investment to theregion (the NE card), the economic sector, the assimilation of technology, etc.So if you have a surefire plan for an internet start-up you can on your laptopin the corner of your bedroom which will bring peace on earth and prosperityfor all mankind, you can do that as well.
The aboveall sounds like reasonable and sound policy from the Brazilian perspective. Andcompared with other countries it seems pretty liberal
February 27, 2005 at 9:39 am #114773
Dunga…by far and away you have wriiten the most sensible(and interesting reply) to my original post. I totally agree with what you say and can now understand why the investment visa is as it is, and it makes sense…BUT (and this was my original thread) why is it necessary to show $2000 per month to survive in retirement (as a single male)? I know you or anyone else can’t answer this as it is Brazilian law. My own circumstances mean I reckon I can live where I want to in the way I want to for at most ¬£750 per month…(=about $1200 or R$3000).I think the thing that has skewed the situation is the exchange rate. Presumably if it went back to nearly $2 to ¬£1 as 9 months ago then I would be nearly OK without me having to change anything!! This is the crazy thing…..Maybe there will be a change to a R$ basis to the retirement visa figure (why is it still in dollars anyway?)……but this may not be favourable at current rates!…so I will wait to see if the USA goes bust before the UK and that might help the pound! That could be a close call. I don’t know which country has the crookedest bunch of businessmen and bankers that have brought both countries to near ruin (or ruin yet to come)………That is part of my reason for wanting to retire in Brazil and to get out before the real s*** hits the fan. No doubt those same crooked businessmen have a head start on me with their fat cat pensions and will beat me to Brazil via the retirement or investment visas that they can afford. Such is the frustration and justice of life…..the powerful and the powerless…something that an average Brazilian knows all too well in a much harsher way in their own country……
February 27, 2005 at 11:48 am #114783
Frank 4000….I have been to-ing and fro-ing from Uk to Brazil on tourist visas and one student visa for 10 years and just want a more secure situation in Brazil…..maybe I should try Trinidad and Tobago!Are you permanently there or planning to get to Brazil?
February 24, 2009 at 10:13 am #14065
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