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  • #272935

    lieo12
    Member

    I mostly read the forums, and I’ve seen a lot of gringoes on this forum saying that (Things I hate about Brazil post) Brazilians are very patriotic and nationalistic.
    NOTE: I do not hate the United States (I knew this would be necessary to say).
    Have you guys ever read anything by most Brazilians (who finished ensino medio) on Facebook? They rant on and on about the problems in Brazil and the PT (without ever doing anything about it of course). Yes, these people despise Dilma! Ever heard of Dilma Bolada? Also, most of them nearly worship “Tio Sam” and the United States. Try going on the Embaixada dos Estados Unidos Facebook page and look at the comments. There are hundreds of pages of United States loving and chupa-estrangeiro in general LOL
    The news on TV always mentions a tidbit from the United States, and no other foreign nation. Your average Brazilian probably knows more about the US than any of the other members of Mercosul/r.
    They compare car prices, electronic prices (yes they are absurdo rsrs) between the US and Brazil. The hypocrisy runs rampant in these rants. Very often they contradict themselves: “I want a military dictatorship! Protect free speech! Or: “Look at these European countries with their great public systems! I hate paying high taxes!” (If the taxes in Brazil were used for their intended purpose, but this seems too much for your average Brazilian to ponder…)
    Okay, the problems in Brazil are very frustrating for me too. I live Brasilia, I know. Brazil has everything it needs to become a rich country, but is lead by corrupt, incompetent politicians. Murderous motorists, deafening music from house parties, jeitinho brasileiro. I get it. But these jovenscan’t accept that Brazil is at the same time a developing nation and thus comparing it to a developed nation is silly and unrealistic. This is surely the vira-latacomplex.
    If I try to mention for example the insane price of health care in the USA, it goes something like this:
    Me: Look at this image that went viral about a 55K appendix removal in the US.
    Brazilian: The health care system in Brazil is so sh****.
    Me: Yes, but Brazil is a developing country. The US is a rich country, but no public hospitals unlike Canada, UK, etc.
    Brazilian: Did you know that there are people dying on the floor of our hospitals?
    Me: Yes, it’s terrible… but probably about 12 other Brazilians have told me this.
    Brazilian: The USA is so wonderful, everyone there has about 20K in savings there, right?
    Me: 20K?! Where did you hear that? Did you listen to anything I said?
    Brazilian: Oh yes, I’m listening…
    Me: *flips table*
    I have had so many conversations just like that. Confused
    My guess is that this patriotism is more from the people who either barely made it through ensino medio, didn’t make it through primary school,or are very wealthy and not affected much by Brazil’s problems. I can also imagine people on the beach in Rio de Janeiro and Salvador being patriotic. LOLNever been there, though.
    rachael2015-02-09 06:03:32

  • #272938

    Anonymous

    It took me a long time to meet people who were beyond the (typical, stylish) “oh i hate brazil it is so dirty and primitive and i want to live in Europe/America/etc”.

    There are people who are happy here, hopeful here, who understand that the streets aren’t paved in gold in Ireland or in the US. I think part of it was as a foreigner I kept meeting people who wanted to be foreigners. Once I got out of that rut, I got to meet different people who have different perspectives.
  • #272940

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=rachael]

    Brazil has everything it needs to become a rich country, but is lead by corrupt, incompetent Brazilians.
    [/QUOTE]
    *fixed Wink(although this is tongue in cheek, I do believe Brazil has no future in the hands of Brazilians)
    On a serious note, I know what you are saying in this post but even these people will “defend” Brazil especially to a gringo…in most cases. There is a STOOPID video on the Youtube about Brazilians tourists acting a fool in Disney. There is a lot of vehement defense going on by classe B people who probably have higher education.
    What I can say is that the phenomenon is much weaker in the past two years or so. 7 years ago a gringo would get tarred and feathered for anything less than a “I love Brazil, this beautiful country” Now, I feel I talk people off the ledge as they bash Brazil more than anybody.
  • #272944

    Winlearn
    Member

    The only truly happy Brazilians living in Brazil today are those with deep pockets. Don’t be fooled by all the fake smiles and samba or for-all dancing and drinking at the neighborhood corner bar. Even the almost nothing middle class is unhappy because they are working like robots, and you can include all those dead-in-the-water-has-been expats who have gone home broke. How fun it was 10+ years ago. The honeymoon is clearly over. Sh*ts & giggles to sh*ts and broke back home in the UK. I would love to see esprit today spreading his constant bullsh*t at the local pub in Manchester. LOL

  • #273220

    myrna
    Member

    If you’re Brazilian then you won’t experience it like we do. Its kind of a “No one can make fun of my family but ME” thing. They may tell you how much Brazil sucks but if you agree they snap into this emotional defense mode and say IF YOU DONT LIKE IT HERE THEN GO HOME.
    The first thing out of 99% of Brazilian’s mouths upon meeting a gringo is “How do you liike Brazil???” and if you say anything besides its great! they get all pissy and start defending it.
    Its so obnoxious.

  • #273224

    Steven
    Participant

    I always say that Brazil is like every other country – some things good and some things bad. They never know how to respond.

  • #273229

    Marc Maserati
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Steven]I always say that Brazil is like every other country – some things good and some things bad. They never know how to respond.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, same here! Once they agree and ask for examples, they already admitted everything here isn’t perfect. It forces people to openly explore what is better and what is worse which has lead to some great conversations.
    -Marc
  • #273246

    Steven
    Participant

    The funny thing is that with me when they ask a follow up question it is sincerely about what I find good about Brazil? It seems to astonish them that I say that Brazil has some good things as if they were prepared for me only to dump on Brazil. I usually respond to that question by turning it back at them and asking them to list the good things about Brazil.

  • #273249

    brazil2010
    Member

    I’ve had the same experience in England where foreigners have told me how much they hate England – the inevitable reaction is “well why don’t you go home” – but no one says that. Conversely if they say they like the country I’m instantly enamoured. So, I do the same thing in Brazil as you others – I say there are good things and bad things. At the end of the day, what other response is there, if you are a reasonably well educated person. Only idiots claim a country is “good” or “bad”. Having said that, I don’t want to live in Libya.

    My point is that there is nothing remarkable in Brazilians being patriotic but constantly whining about Brazil – the two go hand in hand. Often the most patriotic people are those who care most about a countries failings. Ironically its the politicians that don’t seem to care too much.
    A more interesting question is – if Brazilians are so patriotic, why are they not more militaristic and antagonistic towards other nations? I am thankful that this is not, as in Europe, a natural association here. My conclusion is that a combination of Catholic pacifism, government disorder and very thin population distribution in border regions has enabled most South American countries to avoid significant war with each other, despite high levels of patriotism and low level skirmishes. Also, lets not forget that the British helped negotiate the existence of Uruguay! In other parts of the world there might be an ongoing struggle to control such a territory by the two large neighbours.
  • #273251

    Steven
    Participant

    I think that you are making a mistake thinking that Brazilians are patriotic. They are more in love with jeito Brasileiro than they are with Brazil. They simply don’t want a foreigner reinforcing the negative things that they already know in their hearts.

  • #273265

    Luca
    Member

    At some level Jamest is right- in other places and in other times, a militaristic, nationalist leader could emerge. The collective self-esteem is low. There is a sense of hopelessness.

  • #273323

    Anonymous

    Some regions are more patriotic, or have more regional pride, than others. Rio Grande do Sul is very patriotic, and takes great pride in its state. Parana is low in both state and national pride. I think on the whole though, most Brazilians are only mildly, and superficially, patriotic. They bash their country all the time. Theyre certainly a lot less patriotic than Americans. In America, if you don’t openly “support our troops”, you will get many mean scowls, and a few cold shoulders. I suspect Brazilians were more patriotic during the ditadura militar, maybe because they had to be. I remember reading somewhere that the official government slogan during the ditadura militar was :”Brasil, Ame-o ou deixe-o”. That’s pretty aggressive. Today its “Brasil, um pais de todos”. I think Brazil can do with a healthy, realistic dose of national pride, or patriotism, instead of looking down on itself as a third world country with no unique features, and bowing to America and Europe. Brazil certainly has much to offer that America doesn’t, if you have the money to afford it.

  • #273327

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Grantham] They’re certainly a lot less patriotic than Americans. In America, if you don’t openly “support our troops”, you will get many mean scowls, and a few cold shoulders. [/QUOTE]

    Yes, but times have changed. When I was a young pup the Vietnam veterans returned to scorn, abuse, and anger. I think that America is now showing the well-deserved guilt associated with treating our earlier warriors poorly. Whatever the reason that we ask men and women to wear the uniform of our country and ask them to take up arms, they deserve only respect and thanks.
  • #273329

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Steven] …Whatever the reason that we ask men and women to wear the uniform of our country and ask them to take up arms, they deserve only respect and thanks.
    [/QUOTE]

    Whateverthe reason? Really? Has history not documented any 90-day wonder or asemi-literate gung-ho grunt who has instantly obeyed any order from an equallyheinous superior â‚Ǩ in or out of uniform -without question or reason becausesuch warrior types are conditioned to be oblivious to moral hazard? And whatwar following WW2 has not been riddled with misjudgement, ulterior motive and moralhazard? There is a case for arguing that the actions of our men in uniform havecreated more enemies and those vanquished. It’s very difficult to come to termswith all of this dishonesty while at the same time thanking them for their so-calledself-serving service.

  • #273336

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fila]

    Whateverthe reason? Really? Has history not documented any 90-day wonder or asemi-literate gung-ho grunt who has instantly obeyed any order from an equallyheinous superior â‚Ǩ in or out of uniform -without question or reason becausesuch warrior types are conditioned to be oblivious to moral hazard? And whatwar following WW2 has not been riddled with misjudgement, ulterior motive and moralhazard? There is a case for arguing that the actions of our men in uniform havecreated more enemies and those vanquished. It’s very difficult to come to termswith all of this dishonesty while at the same time thanking them for their so-calledself-serving service.

    [/QUOTE]

    Spoken from the safety of your cave.
  • #273337

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Steven][QUOTE=Fila]

    Whateverthe reason? Really? Has history not documented any 90-day wonder or asemi-literate gung-ho grunt who has instantly obeyed any order from an equallyheinous superior â‚Ǩ in or out of uniform -without question or reason becausesuch warrior types are conditioned to be oblivious to moral hazard? And whatwar following WW2 has not been riddled with misjudgement, ulterior motive and moralhazard? There is a case for arguing that the actions of our men in uniform havecreated more enemies and those vanquished. It’s very difficult to come to termswith all of this dishonesty while at the same time thanking them for their so-calledself-serving service.

    [/QUOTE]

    Spoken from the safety of your cave.

    [/QUOTE]

    I have noidea what you mean to infer by that rather meaningless remark. Or is it perhapsthat a remote cave is what could be reasonably perceived to be the only safehaven in these troubled days following the many years of Western influence expansionism?

    Under theprotection of the so-called torch of freedom we now enjoy unprecedentedrestriction of freedoms under the guise of high-cost security; both civil andmilitarily. One only has to embark on air travel to see the depth ofjustifiable paranoia in the security measures or walk a city block and takenote of the CCTV cameras that scrutinise our every move. Western military tentacleshave outreached globally since the cessation of WW2 in tandem with actual hot shootingwars that persist up until today. If you feel that Western foreign policies andexecutive actions have not instigated or at least gone some way in justifying apush-back then we have nothing to discuss.

    Alternatively,if you feel that our politicians and our leaders rank within the echelons ofthe altruistic intelligentsia and worth every penny of the tax burden then yourworld may be destined for a beautiful future down the rabbit hole. Now that Icome to think of it maybe your suggestion of cave dwelling is not that bad asuggestion. LOL

  • #273349

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Fila][QUOTE=Steven] …Whatever the reason that we ask men and women to wear the uniform of our country and ask them to take up arms, they deserve only respect and thanks.
    [/QUOTE]

    Whateverthe reason? Really?

    [/QUOTE]

    With all due respect to Steven, a long time poster and at least cyberly speaking, a good guy, I have to agree with this. They deserve respect and thanks when the mission is honorable and truly, for the lack of a better term, good.
    Vietnam was neither. The foray in the desert was neither.
    It’s seem polemic to make this analogy and I am not saying it is even close to the same thing, but should Germans have pride for their military for the actions between 1930-1945. I don’t think so, at least. But they were doing what they were told, right? They were doing what was good for Germany, right?
    I am not an anti-military guy. My Grandfather served proudly in the Fighting 75th infantry as a line man and made buck sergeant as a boy because his officer was blown away in front of him. I am very proud of what he did. I am very proud of what all the ally soldiers did.
    My sister’s brother in law is a Marine who served in some big action in Iraq. Even when he says he supports the troops, he qualifies it to mean that he supports the kids over there that they get back safe and with proper medical attention, social services, etc. but he does not support their mission. He can back seriously jaded.
  • #273350

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Steven] [QUOTE=Grantham] They’re certainly a lot less patriotic than Americans. In America, if you don’t openly “support our troops”, you will get many mean scowls, and a few cold shoulders. ¬†[/QUOTE]

    Yes, but times have changed.  When I was a young pup the Vietnam veterans returned to scorn, abuse, and anger.  I think that America is now showing the well-deserved guilt associated with treating our earlier warriors poorly.  Whatever the reason that we ask men and women to wear the uniform of our country and ask them to take up arms, they deserve only respect and thanks. 

    [/QUOTE]
    Well, okay, did you expect those baby killers to come back to thank yous and hugs? They decimated half of Vietnam’s rainforests with agent orange, those forests are still dead, and deformed babies are still being born due to the contamination of the water and soil from that poison. The damage is done, once that’s in your DNA, its there forever. The symptoms can only be treated, you can’t change the genetic mutations that agent orange caused. They knew what they were doing, those actions were not heroic, they’re certainly no heroes, that’s for sure. Grantham2015-02-22 15:20:11

  • #273352

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=Fila][QUOTE=Steven] …Whatever the reason that we ask men and women to wear the uniform of our country and ask them to take up arms, they deserve only respect and thanks.
    [/QUOTE]

    Whateverthe reason? Really?

    [/QUOTE]

    With all due respect to Steven, a long time poster and at least cyberly speaking, a good guy, I have to agree with this. They deserve respect and thanks when the mission is honorable and truly, for the lack of a better term, good.
    Vietnam was neither. The foray in the desert was neither.
    It’s seem polemic to make this analogy and I am not saying it is even close to the same thing, but should Germans have pride for their military for the actions between 1930-1945. I don’t think so, at least. But they were doing what they were told, right? They were doing what was good for Germany, right?
    I am not an anti-military guy. My Grandfather served proudly in the Fighting 75th infantry as a line man and made buck sergeant as a boy because his officer was blown away in front of him. I am very proud of what he did. I am very proud of what all the ally soldiers did.
    My sister’s brother in law is a Marine who served in some big action in Iraq. Even when he says he supports the troops, he qualifies it to mean that he supports the kids over there that they get back safe and with proper medical attention, social services, etc. but he does not support their mission. He can back seriously jaded.

    [/QUOTE]

    You bet. I never said to support the mission. Just don’t take it out on the kids who went and did their duty. I remember the Vietnam Vets coming home and getting spit on. This should never happen again.
    I am a little annoyed at the Brazilians who appear, at the present, to be absent from the world stage. ISIS – tudo bem. Iran’s nuclear arms? – Nao faz mal. Russia’s aggression in the Ukraine – e ai.
    They need a pair of stones which appear to be, in general, missing. But what can you expect of a pais terceiro mundo.
  • #273354

    Brazilians are patriotic when the Brazilian team is playing in the World Cup. Everyone is in their yellow shirts and ready to party (as always). Fireworks are not on Independence Day, they’re on New Year’s Eve or when they win a Football (soccer) match. Ask them who discovered Brazil, in what year or which countries border Brazil. The best question is, Who does the Amazon belong to? Yes, exactly, most say, we do. When you tell them that 60% belongs to Brazil, they get a look of total confusion on their face. We have our clowns at home but most of the 10 best universities are in the U.S. despite many people confusing Brazil and Argentina. I do my part and diplomatically try to educate them. In return, I learn things from them too. I’ve learned some good cooking techniques to incorporate into my own style. It’s all good.

  • #273356

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=The Abbot]

    …It’s seem polemic to make this analogy and I am not saying it is even close to the same thing, but should Germans have pride for their military for the actions between 1930-1945. I don’t think so, at least. But they were doing what they were told, right? They were doing what was good for Germany, right? …

    [/QUOTE]

    It’s notat all polemic to draw such equivalence. History belongs to the victors and hadthere been a different outcome to WW2, German military â‚ǨÀúheroes’ would long be enshrinedin the history books and, as with Korea and Vietnam, the despicable acts of thefew shrouded by the justification of disinformation; war is hell.

    And thedifference between those wars is a simple matter of cause, scale and bodycount; the necessary mindless obedience of the soldiers and the acquiescence ofthe electorate cannot be regarded as honourable in matters of moral hazard. Themost common plea in defence of outrages against humanity during the Nuremburgtrials was, [apply comic German Accent] “I was only obeying orders.” The words:honour, pride and gratitude are mere platitudes when painting the military withthe broad brush of emotive patriotism. Thank you for your service? On my dollarmaybe, but not in my name.

    In themeantime the fires burn hot and the blood flows in Syria, Iraq, Libya andAfghanistan while Iran and Ukraine await starter’s orders. It would be all laughablypredictable were it not a completely reprehensible mess. Watch out for a terrorattack near you!

  • #273499

    As an American, I would have to question our own military and actions of recent wars. The Washington Post talks to this issue. Our nation was quick to buy into the rhetoric of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) only to find out later they didn’t exist and the 9/11 Commission revealed that Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on America of 9/11.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html
    The war in Vietnam and the spillover conflicts in Laos and Cambodia were even more lethal. These numbers are also hard to pin down, although by several scholarly estimates, Vietnamese military and civilian deaths ranged from 1.5 million to 3.8 million, with the U.S.-led campaign in Cambodia resulting in 600,000 to 800,000 deaths, and Laotian war mortality estimated at about 1 million.
    Despite the fact that contemporary weapons are vastly more precise, Iraq war casualties, which are also hard to quantify, have reached several hundred thousand. In mid-2006, two household surveys â‚Ǩ the most scientific means of calculating â‚Ǩ found 400,000 to 650,000 deaths, and there has been a lot of killing since then. (The oft-cited Iraq Body Count Web site mainly uses news accounts, which miss much of the violence.)
    The war in Afghanistan has been far less violent than the others, with civilian and military deaths estimated at about 100,000.

  • #273501

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=zeezonyc]As an American, I would have to question our own military and actions of recent wars. The Washington Post talks to this issue. Our nation was quick to buy into the rhetoric of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) only to find out later they didn’t exist and the 9/11 Commission revealed that Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on America of 9/11.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html
    The war in Vietnam and the spillover conflicts in Laos and Cambodia were even more lethal. These numbers are also hard to pin down, although by several scholarly estimates, Vietnamese military and civilian deaths ranged from 1.5 million to 3.8 million, with the U.S.-led campaign in Cambodia resulting in 600,000 to 800,000 deaths, and Laotian war mortality estimated at about 1 million.
    Despite the fact that contemporary weapons are vastly more precise, Iraq war casualties, which are also hard to quantify, have reached several hundred thousand. In mid-2006, two household surveys â‚Ǩ the most scientific means of calculating â‚Ǩ found 400,000 to 650,000 deaths, and there has been a lot of killing since then. (The oft-cited Iraq Body Count Web site mainly uses news accounts, which miss much of the violence.)
    The war in Afghanistan has been far less violent than the others, with civilian and military deaths estimated at about 100,000.[/QUOTE]

    What you describe is nothing short of an obscene holocaust.And if you ask for reasons why this horrific carnage took place the averageAmerican would claim that it was to protect their country and freedoms; thank youfor your service. Just how gullible, ill-informed and hypocritical can a nationof so-called Christians be?

  • #273504

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Fila][QUOTE=zeezonyc]As an American, I would have to question our own military and actions of recent wars. The Washington Post talks to this issue. Our nation was quick to buy into the rhetoric of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) only to find out later they didn’t exist and the 9/11 Commission revealed that Iraq had nothing to do with the attack on America of 9/11.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html
    The war in Vietnam and the spillover conflicts in Laos and Cambodia were even more lethal. These numbers are also hard to pin down, although by several scholarly estimates, Vietnamese military and civilian deaths ranged from 1.5 million to 3.8 million, with the U.S.-led campaign in Cambodia resulting in 600,000 to 800,000 deaths, and Laotian war mortality estimated at about 1 million.
    Despite the fact that contemporary weapons are vastly more precise, Iraq war casualties, which are also hard to quantify, have reached several hundred thousand. In mid-2006, two household surveys â‚Ǩ the most scientific means of calculating â‚Ǩ found 400,000 to 650,000 deaths, and there has been a lot of killing since then. (The oft-cited Iraq Body Count Web site mainly uses news accounts, which miss much of the violence.)
    The war in Afghanistan has been far less violent than the others, with civilian and military deaths estimated at about 100,000.[/QUOTE]

    What you describe is nothing short of an obscene holocaust.And if you ask for reasons why this horrific carnage took place the averageAmerican would claim that it was to protect their country and freedoms; thank youfor your service. Just how gullible, ill-informed and hypocritical can a nationof so-called Christians be?

    [/QUOTE]

    I am an American and I shamefully agree with your statement. The “so called Christian” part is a kicker as well. They will talk all types of smack about Muslims, and maybe rightfully so, BUT at least Muslims have conviction and walk the talk. Christians talk the talk and walk something completely different.
    And the fact that there are Muslims in that part of the world in 2015 is understandable. They are poor, uneducated, probably like our Brazilian brethren, functionally retarded, therefore easily misled. Christianity in the US in 2015 is unacceptable. At least until the “old guard” dies off. With information readily available I can only hang my head.
  • #273507

    Anonymous

    I was somewhat disgusted by the outpour of nationalism and patriotism after 9-11. There was something very un American about all of it. It said “God Bless America: the white, protestant, evangelical christian nation, the best in the world, the saviors of the universe, etc. etc.” It said nothing about our values of tolerance, democracy, justice, open-mindedness, friendliness, education, equality, etc.
    But now with ISIS, we need one voice and one nation to stand up against these vicious people. I do not want to be a Muslim, I don’t want Islam, I will not be tolerant of intolerance, I will not accept a one- world Islamic caliphate. I will have no problem if Raqqa is bombed completely, for they provoked it. They won’t stop until they’re vanquished completely. They will not reconquer Spain for Islam, as much as I’m not a fan of Christian imperialism, it is much better than ISIS’s version of Islam. I can’t fathom, I can’t believe any Westerner would go join ISIS, but thousands of them are going from across the world, from the USA, Europe, Australia. What kind of brainwashing are they receiving? Secularism is so much better than any sort of religion, be it Christianity, Islam, whatever. Unfortunately, I think atheism won’t conquer fundamentalist radical Islam, I don’t know what will, but atheism, in my opinion, is too weak to convince muslims to leave Islam.

  • #273511

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Grantham]I was somewhat disgusted by the outpour of nationalism and patriotism after 9-11. There was something very un American about all of it. It said “God Bless America: the white, protestant, evangelical christian nation, the best in the world, the saviors of the universe, etc. etc.” It said nothing about our values of tolerance, democracy, justice, open-mindedness, friendliness, education, equality, etc.
    But now with ISIS, we need one voice and one nation to stand up against these vicious people. I do not want to be a Muslim, I don’t want Islam, I will not be tolerant of intolerance, I will not accept a one- world Islamic caliphate. I will have no problem if Raqqa is bombed completely, for they provoked it. They won’t stop until they’re vanquished completely. They will not reconquer Spain for Islam, as much as I’m not a fan of Christian imperialism, it is much better than ISIS’s version of Islam. I can’t fathom, I can’t believe any Westerner would go join ISIS, but thousands of them are going from across the world, from the USA, Europe, Australia. What kind of brainwashing are they receiving?Secularism is so much better than any sort of religion, be it Christianity, Islam, whatever. Unfortunately, I think atheism won’t conquer fundamentalist radical Islam, I don’t know what will, but atheism, in my opinion, is too weak to convince muslims to leave Islam. [/QUOTE]

    What kind of brain washing? Are you serious! Consider thecompendium of the death tolls listed by ‘zeezonyc’ on this page; millions dead and killed by Western powers. Recoilingin shock and horror at the beheading of a mere handful by ISIS doesn’t even comeclose to what a helicopter gunship can do to obliterate a man or indeed the otherexpert means of butchering the bodies of millions; context, at all times,context.

    I challenge you to wonder what kind of brainwashing isrequired to radicalise American and ally soldiers and have them travel to othercountries to commit such officially sanctioned unconscionable and immoral carnage.Far from the rousing oratory of Hitler or Mussolini, a more subtle andinsidious ration of propaganda is spewed by political lobbyists and trickleddown daily to the likes of the armchair heroes in Fox News and radio: “If wedon’t fight â‚ǨÀúem over there we’ll have to fight â‚ǨÀúem here.” What, is the Eastcoast gonna be attacked by a camel charge! All of that crap infiltrates into thehearts and minds of dumb & dumber until it emerges as truth.

    During the ten years of searching for the elusive Osamabin Laden the US spent approaching 6000 billion dollars on its defence budget.Bin Laden, living in a cave, a modest bearded guy wearing a winter nighty andlooking exceedingly uncomfortable holding his AK47 was supposed to have beenthe mastermind of 9/11 and the most wanted man in the world.

    The big clue in all of this is that the American annual defenceexpenditure dwarfs the global budgets spent by all other nations; now that’sreally, really big business â‚Ǩ don’t mess with big business! Can we handle thattruth?

  • #273519

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Grantham]


    It said nothing about our values of tolerance, democracy, justice, open-mindedness, friendliness, education, equality, etc.
    [/QUOTE]
    What country are you blathering about? These are not American values. I was born there and lived there for 27 and am an amateur student of history and have a curious mind. These are American values to Americans the way Christian values are to Christians. Boca pra fora!!!!!!!!
  • #273526

    Serrano
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fila]During the ten years of searching for the elusive Osamabin Laden the US spent approaching 6000 billion dollars on its defence budget.Bin Laden, living in a cave, a modest bearded guy wearing a winter nighty andlooking exceedingly uncomfortable holding his AK47….[/QUOTE]
    And let’s not forget he was +/- 6’5″ in height(1.98m) They could have located him using Google Earth, if they really wanted to! Confused

  • #273530

    Anonymous

    Lol, okay I get it, the US is evil, but don’t you think that ISIS is more evil? They would kill me if they had the chance. I’m gay, I’m an atheist, I criticize Islam, I’m a “modern”, I wear western clothes, in short, I’m not a model citizen according to ISIS standards. I’m not really defending the US Iraq War here, I never really supported it to begin with. I thought Bush was exaggerated in declaring it, I thought there was no urgent need for that war, and the reasons for us to be there were fuzzy all along. Terrorism, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, all those could have been dealt with wihout a war. The motivations behind that war were access to Iraqi oil. At least I think so. I think it was all just a massive waste of human life, money, media coverage, diplomacy, and talk. Just because that war was wrong doesn’t make ISIS right, or even less wrong… Why did thousands of Muslim young men living in western countries, most of them born in those countries and citizens of those countries, go and join ISIS in Iraq and Syria? They must hate their home countries so much as to join such a hard-line, radical, violent group. I would be thrilled to live in Europe, personally. Personally, I don’t think Islam is great, I think secular, liberal, European values are better, je suis Charlie Hebdo, and I might be criticized enormously for this, but I don’t think Islam belongs in Europe. They can do it at home, but I certainly am no big fan of Islam, and I would rather not see it on the street, or walk past mosques and mosques being built. And, as if there wasn’t already enough homophobia in society to begin with, Muslims are even more homophobic, prejudiced, hateful, and intolerant of gays than Europeans are. But those are European problems, not American ones.

  • #273532

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Grantham]Lol, okay I get it, the US is evil, but don’t you think that ISIS is more evil? They would kill me if they had the chance. I’m gay, I’m an atheist, I criticize Islam, I’m a “modern”, I wear western clothes, in short, I’m not a model citizen according to ISIS standards. I’m not really defending the US Iraq War here, I never really supported it to begin with. I thought Bush was exaggerated in declaring it, I thought there was no urgent need for that war, and the reasons for us to be there were fuzzy all along. Terrorism, Saddam Hussein, Bin Laden, all those could have been dealt with wihout a war. The motivations behind that war were access to Iraqi oil. At least I think so. I think it was all just a massive waste of human life, money, media coverage, diplomacy, and talk. Just because that war was wrong doesn’t make ISIS right, or even less wrong… Why did thousands of Muslim young men living in western countries, most of them born in those countries and citizens of those countries, go and join ISIS in Iraq and Syria? They must hate their home countries so much as to join such a hard-line, radical, violent group. I would be thrilled to live in Europe, personally. Personally, I don’t think Islam is great, I think secular, liberal, European values are better, je suis Charlie Hebdo, and I might be criticized enormously for this, but I don’t think Islam belongs in Europe. They can do it at home, but I certainly am no big fan of Islam, and I would rather not see it on the street, or walk past mosques and mosques being built. And, as if there wasn’t already enough homophobia in society to begin with, Muslims are even more homophobic, prejudiced, hateful, and intolerant of gays than Europeans are. But those are European problems, not American ones. [/QUOTE]

    I don’t believe in evil. Evil is in the mind of the beholder. I’m not even talking about relativism here. To believe in evil is childish.
  • #273535

    Anonymous

    No evil? Google images of ISIS beheadings, it’s gruesome. You can see the blood on the ground, the severed heads, eyes open, frozen. You can see the muscles, arteries, ligaments, severed tracheas. They publish this for a reason, and that’s to scare people. They burned a man alive in a cage. They stuck the severed heads of their victims on poles in the middle of a square in Raqqa, Syria, to show the inhabitants of that city that they’re serious and to show them that if they don’t comply their heads would be on those poles too. All of this is in broad daylight, as people go about their normal daily lives, you know, with a couple bloody heads on poles, no problem right? They used to do this in medieval Europe, I thought we were past that…

  • #273540

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=The Abbot

    I don’t believe in evil. Evil is in the mind of the beholder. I’m not even talking about relativism here. To believe in evil is childish.

    [/QUOTE]

    Paulie! No evil in the world? Gimme a break! To say that these ISIS guys are in the same league as Obama or that knucklehead Putin is ridiculous. These guys are bad. Sinful. Horrible people. The world needs to get together and crush them (including the yellow backed Brazilians).
  • #273541

    Serrano
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Grantham]They used to do this in medieval Europe, I thought we were past that.[/QUOTE]
    Me too.


    Gringo.Serrano2015-02-27 17:28:50

  • #273543

    Anonymous

    We humans are a strange lot to be sure. Perhaps we’vebeen conditioned by the Hollywood movie deaths; John Wayne’s shoot â‚ǨÀúem up typemovies followed by Clint in his poncho. Perhaps it was Sam Peckinpah’ssemi-realism special effects weaned us off the no blood shootings to his spectacularblood splashes that cinema-goers loved so much. It was not until much laterthat we were treated to all sorts of horror movies when the gore spewedeverywhere and seemingly over our popcorn in 3D. A certain section of thepublic love that crap yet they know that it’s not real; it’s all pretend and iteven crosses into comedy as eyeballs get squished and noses fall off.

    Now consider the real world: Few would wish to see adead person and we get really upset if perhaps we see somebody whose hand has beenmangled in an industrial incident or a body on the road following car accident.In other words we know what is real and what is not. Watching somebody havingtheir head slowly hacked off is beyond shocking and is totally abhorrent. TheISIS guys know this. They know the power of fear and this is how they spreadthis fear. Fear is the major motivator. Society uses it all the time; it can bea court fine or fear of incarceration. Religion uses fear; be good or burn inhell for eternity. Imagine what the fear intensity for Baghdad’s locals waslike under â‚ǨÀúshock & awe.’ As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Meanwhile it’s as theman said, “We have nothing to fear but fear itself.”

  • #273545

    Serrano
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Fila]Fear is the major motivator. Society uses it all the time… [/QUOTE]
    The smoking gun of a mushroom cloud” comes to mind….
    Gringo.Serrano2015-02-27 17:21:31

  • #273546

    Anonymous

    ^^that is most certainly the truth.

    Fila, you are making way too much sense lately. Very glad to see you back, hope things are going well with you.
  • #273607

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven][QUOTE=The Abbot

    I don’t believe in evil. Evil is in the mind of the beholder. I’m not even talking about relativism here. To believe in evil is childish.

    [/QUOTE]

    Paulie! No evil in the world? Gimme a break! To say that these ISIS guys are in the same league as Obama or that knucklehead Putin is ridiculous. These guys are bad. Sinful. Horrible people. The world needs to get together and crush them (including the yellow backed Brazilians).

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we are getting caught up in semantics here. Sure, these guys are awful scum and what they do is bad. To say there is “evil” connotes some malevolent force behind the actions. There are a million reasons these guys do what they do but such a force is not one of them as it does not exist.
  • #273608

    ffm
    Member

    [QUOTE=Fila]

    Watching somebody havingtheir head slowly hacked off is beyond shocking and is totally abhorrent.

    [/QUOTE]

    It is! Some a-hole sent me a video of Mexican cartel guys cutting a guys head off (alive) with a serrated kitchen knife. One of the worst things I’ve seen in my life.
  • #273626

    Paulo
    Participant

    [QUOTE=The Abbot][QUOTE=Fila]

    It is! Some a-hole sent me a video of Mexican cartel guys cutting a guys head off (alive) with a serrated kitchen knife. One of the worst things I’ve seen in my life.

    [/QUOTE]

    Those Mexicans must be Muslims, I suppose. With their black sombreros. If we need to get with the program that is.Confused
  • #273651

    Tony
    Participant

    People here are overly opiniated. That’s all. They will start a subject to spout and run their mouths.
    They will also change subjects.
    You see, in some parts of the world , ideas and discussion lead somewhere. Here is just fodder.
    I don’t bother in getting a conversation with most Beazilians , with exception to a few.

  • #274736

    Anonymous

    Well, I’m a Brazilian and very cynical and critical when it comes to Brazil. I want to believe, however, that I vent my frustrations in a slightly more thoughtful way than compared to the example of conversations you said you had.
    And boy I’m frustrated. Sometimes I get so stressed over living in this godforsaken place that I feel like melting down. The very idea that I’ve spent at least a third of my short human years here makes my heart sink, and I live in city the locals like to describe as being “European in terms of quality of life”. Rubbish, Curitiba certainly wins over other Brazilians cities in some aspects, but in essence it’s just another bit of Brazil. All problems included.
    “Every country has good and bad sides”. Absolutely! But not for me. In my personal universe that is organized by a set of ideas and principles of my own, Brazil is hell. But since it’s essentially impolite to annoy others with my frustration fuelled country bashing, I decided that forums such as this are the best way to let a bit of steam off.
    Ordinary Brazilians, on other hand, seems to think that it’s perfectly fine to stick with shallow, biased complaints about the place. Generally placing the guilt for them on others. People here appears to be frighted to the death of taking responsibility over anything and will keep shifting both the guilt and the necessary measures to fix the problems to others as long as they can. Even when they’re forced to acknowledge responsibility they will eventually try to diminish their fault talking about how a series of factors led to that.
    Good Lord, I can’t take this very much longer.
    IanLeve2015-04-13 11:04:49

  • #28206

    joaozinho
    Member

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