Oh – There are so many….

Home Forums Vent Your Frustrations Oh – There are so many….

This topic contains 82 replies, has 40 voices, and was last updated by  aman 14 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #66619

    phsp23
    Member

    Before I start I would say that there are things that I DO like about Brazil (perhaps another topic) and until recently I even considered moving there. But let’s look at just some of the negatives:-
    1) Everybody is out to screw you. They seem polite but once they sense you are a Gringo (and thus enormously rich) their sole intent is to screw money out of (admittedly with a smile).
    2) Driving. They might seem nice when out of car but once behind a wheel they are all psychopathic maniacs, intent on murder. Also, be prepared for the crippling potholes and the cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road in the dark without lights.
    3) Lawlessness. There is no law that makes any sense to a European in Brazil. The law is based on who you know and who you can bribe. Oh – and if you are in trouble the LAST people you want to see are the police.
    4) Toilets. Why can’t you put paper down the toilets? Those little bins full of pooey paper by each toilet are just disgusting.
    5) Water. It rains like hell but there is no water. We are told this is political – who knows?
    6) Telephones. Public telephones never work. You have to but a card to use them but you can’t find a phone that works so you are left with this useless card.
    7) Banks. God – I’ll never complain about a UK bank again. Queue for two hours just to pay some money in. Anything you want to do takes an age. When you get to the front of the queue they send you too another queue. And try to withdraw money from an ATM! – make sure that when you find an ATM that works you take out lots because it could be weeks before you find another. You could fully occupy our time just going to the bank.
    8) Bureaucracy. If you need anything official doing be prepared to spend a LONG time. Fill in many forms, wait in many queues, come back again (and again), pay through the nose – and all whilst watching the delightful ladies behind the desk spending all their time kissing each other and filing their nails.
    9) Nothing works properly. Buy any Brazilian made device or appliance and it just won’t work as you might expect and if it does it wont work for very long.
    10) Insects. OK – this is a problem in any tropical country but get used to being bitten by mosquitoes all the time – they love Gringo blood. And the cockroaches (the dreaded barata that needs a brick to kill it) and fleas too – it all adds to the fun.
    11) Credito/Debito – I’m sick of being asked what my card is. And when I give a card I get the usual ‘com chip’ reply and a blank look. I’ve just bought lots of stuff and they are telling me they can’t make the card work. Once or twice I could accept but it seems that credit cards don’t work in about 75% of outlets and there is no explanation why. I have used credit cards in many countries like Russia, Africa and China but in Brazil – “Computer says no”.
    12) Car Rental. Never rent a car. I have given up on this particular horror. You will spend hours filling in forms when you pick it up and get a car with 100 dents in it. You are then expected to ensure that all those dents are accurately recorded because when you take it back they will charge you for any you missed. You are always onto a loser – just don’t do it.
    13) Beach Sellers. You think you might be able to relax on a beach – but no. As soon as you sit down you will have a constant stream of people touting crap jewellery, cashew nuts, oysters. prawns. milho verde, ice cream, hammocks, awful carvings, shells, stick on tattoos, sunglasses, burnt cheese, empadas, pasteis, sandwiches, tablecloths, hats, hair clips etc etc etc. As soon as you send one away, another arrives. Just don’t make eye contact or you will be stuck with them forever.
    14) The Electricity. It’s enough that it is only 110v which wont drive anything useful and it costs an arm and a leg. But it’s the wiring that gets me. No switches, everything has wires hanging out, crappy little plugs that wont stay in the sockets. Forget safety. Electricity and water mix well in Brazil – you will encounter electric showers that spark and fizz when you use them. And don’t worry about that gas tank next to the fizzing ganglion of electric wires. It all adds to the spice of life in Brazil.
    15) The Beach People. Most of the time the beach might be a relatively pleasant place but come the holiday weekend all hell breaks loose. The large groups of dumb looking teenagers listening to Brazilian rap and letting off fireworks. The macho men doing handstands and flexing their muscles. And the bloody frescoball players – aaaaargh – someone explain to me what the point of that game is?
    16) Chocolate. Why, in a country that grows chocolate, is the chocolate so disgusting. Before going this year I got three good sized easter eggs from Tesco for £3 but in Brazil you pay R$40 plus for one pathetic one and they taste like poo.
    17) Milk – you can’t get it – just crap UHT. That goes for all dairy products – no decent cheese etc.
    18) The TV – Oh we are so lucky with our TV, Brazilian TV is just a stream of bad game shows, relgious nonsense and selling.
    19) Oh ….. and don’t get me on to the hypocritical religion……
    OK I have vented my spleen so to be fair I should mention a few plus points:-
    a) The climate. When it’s not unbearably hot it is great.
    b) There are many beautiful places.
    c) There are a plethora of beautiful women to be seen everywhere.
    d) For the decadent amongst us the booze and fags are cheap.
    e) People are generally genuinely nice and friendly (but some let it down so badlly – like everywhere).
    f) You can eat filet mignon every day.
    g) Some great food – fruit, fish etc – but often the luxuries we are used to are missing.
    h) There is a great outdoor life for kids.
    i) The music – Choro, Bossa Nova, Samba – a very rich culture here.
    j) Caipirinha – the best cocktail in the world.
    k) Assuming you have the money you can get very good medical treatment etc without having to wait. But then to the average person this is not available.
    l) You can still have maids, gardeners etc to do your work for you if your conscience allows but watch out or the perverse employment laws. They could come back and say you have employed them as a brain surgeon for 5 years and you would have to provide witnesses and pay solicitors to prove otherwise.
    I’m struggling for more plusses so now is the chance for all the Brazilians out there to help me out.
    Also, Gringoes – please add more gripes as you wish as I am sure I have forgotten many.

  • #66626

    Badcam
    Member

    Where are all of these toilets that don’t take paper? I have done a lot of crapping in a lot of places during the time I’ve been here and every time I throw the paper down the toilet. Never have I seen a sign saying don’t or a bin obviously full of sh*tty paper should the sign not be there. Are you talking about houses built away from the main sewer pipe, perhaps with septic tanks? I have heard others talk about this on Gringoes also but I’m confused!nevergoingback39195,8456597222

  • #66635

    dhardie
    Member

    the chocolate here is crap yes looks good in the wrapper but the taste is bloody terrible worse then cooking chocolate

    dont no why cadburys have not made a move on the market they would clean up.

  • #66636

    demiurge
    Member

    I spent some time in the shopping during my last trip to the capital. It must be a Gringo friendly zone. There was a sign in the b-room stall instructing us provincials to dispose of our TP in the toilet bowl.
    Ordem & Progresso!!!

  • #66643

    x32792
    Member

    Some of these problems must only exist outside of SP and Rio, because I’ve never experienced that, i.e. poor toilets, lack of ATMs, credit card not working, and the vendors on the beach aren’t nearly as bad as you describe. Some of the stuff they sell is quite good and I’ve never been hassled after a friendly “nao, obrigado”. They’re so used that 99% of the people they ask don’t want anything that they don’t spend a lot of time trying to change your mind but just move on.

  • #66647

    Sweetbridge
    Member

    [QUOTE=jamie1]

    dont no why cadburys have not made a move on the market they would clean up.

    [/QUOTE]

    I don’t like Cadburys, if depended on me they would not come to Brazil… or if they did I would not be one of their clients. I prefer (not Brazilian anyway) Netle and Lacta… but of course the best is Ofner (but not cheap).

  • #66656

    floripa
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]Before I start I would say that there are things that I DO like about Brazil (perhaps another topic) and until recently I even considered moving there. But let’s look at just some of the negatives:-

    1) Everybody is out to screw you. They seem polite but once they sense you are a Gringo (and thus enormously rich) their sole intent is to screw money out of (admittedly with a smile).

    2) Driving. They might seem nice when out of car but once behind a wheel they are all psychopathic maniacs, intent on murder. Also, be prepared for the crippling potholes and the cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road in the dark without lights.

    3) Lawlessness. There is no law that makes any sense to a European in Brazil. The law is based on who you know and who you can bribe. Oh – and if you are in trouble the LAST people you want to see are the police.

    4) Toilets. Why can’t you put paper down the toilets? Those little bins full of pooey paper by each toilet are just disgusting.

    5) Water. It rains like hell but there is no water. We are told this is political – who knows?

    6) Telephones. Public telephones never work. You have to but a card to use them but you can’t find a phone that works so you are left with this useless card.

    7) Banks. God – I’ll never complain about a UK bank again. Queue for two hours just to pay some money in. Anything you want to do takes an age. When you get to the front of the queue they send you too another queue. And try to withdraw money from an ATM! – make sure that when you find an ATM that works you take out lots because it could be weeks before you find another. You could fully occupy our time just going to the bank.

    8) Bureaucracy. If you need anything official doing be prepared to spend a LONG time. Fill in many forms, wait in many queues, come back again (and again), pay through the nose – and all whilst watching the delightful ladies behind the desk spending all their time kissing each other and filing their nails.

    9) Nothing works properly. Buy any Brazilian made device or appliance and it just won’t work as you might expect and if it does it wont work for very long.

    10) Insects. OK – this is a problem in any tropical country but get used to being bitten by mosquitoes all the time – they love Gringo blood. And the cockroaches (the dreaded barata that needs a brick to kill it) and fleas too – it all adds to the fun.

    11) Credito/Debito – I’m sick of being asked what my card is. And when I give a card I get the usual ‘com chip’ reply and a blank look. I’ve just bought lots of stuff and they are telling me they can’t make the card work. Once or twice I could accept but it seems that credit cards don’t work in about 75% of outlets and there is no explanation why. I have used credit cards in many countries like Russia, Africa and China but in Brazil – “Computer says no”.

    12) Car Rental. Never rent a car. I have given up on this particular horror. You will spend hours filling in forms when you pick it up and get a car with 100 dents in it. You are then expected to ensure that all those dents are accurately recorded because when you take it back they will charge you for any you missed. You are always onto a loser – just don’t do it.

    13) Beach Sellers. You think you might be able to relax on a beach – but no. As soon as you sit down you will have a constant stream of people touting crap jewellery, cashew nuts, oysters. prawns. milho verde, ice cream, hammocks, awful carvings, shells, stick on tattoos, sunglasses, burnt cheese, empadas, pasteis, sandwiches, tablecloths, hats, hair clips etc etc etc. As soon as you send one away, another arrives. Just don’t make eye contact or you will be stuck with them forever.

    14) The Electricity. It’s enough that it is only 110v which wont drive anything useful and it costs an arm and a leg. But it’s the wiring that gets me. No switches, everything has wires hanging out, crappy little plugs that wont stay in the sockets. Forget safety. Electricity and water mix well in Brazil – you will encounter electric showers that spark and fizz when you use them. And don’t worry about that gas tank next to the fizzing ganglion of electric wires. It all adds to the spice of life in Brazil.

    15) The Beach People. Most of the time the beach might be a relatively pleasant place but come the holiday weekend all hell breaks loose. The large groups of dumb looking teenagers listening to Brazilian rap and letting off fireworks. The macho men doing handstands and flexing their muscles. And the bloody frescoball players – aaaaargh – someone explain to me what the point of that game is?

    16) Chocolate. Why, in a country that grows chocolate, is the chocolate so disgusting. Before going this year I got three good sized easter eggs from Tesco for £3 but in Brazil you pay R$40 plus for one pathetic one and they taste like poo.

    17) Milk – you can’t get it – just crap UHT. That goes for all dairy products – no decent cheese etc.

    18) The TV – Oh we are so lucky with our TV, Brazilian TV is just a stream of bad game shows, relgious nonsense and selling.

    19) Oh ….. and don’t get me on to the hypocritical religion……

    OK I have vented my spleen so to be fair I should mention a few plus points:-

    a) The climate. When it’s not unbearably hot it is great.
    b) There are many beautiful places.
    c) There are a plethora of beautiful women to be seen everywhere.
    d) For the decadent amongst us the booze and fags are cheap.
    e) People are generally genuinely nice and friendly (but some let it down so badlly – like everywhere).
    f) You can eat filet mignon every day.
    g) Some great food – fruit, fish etc – but often the luxuries we are used to are missing.
    h) There is a great outdoor life for kids.
    i) The music – Choro, Bossa Nova, Samba – a very rich culture here.
    j) Caipirinha – the best cocktail in the world.
    k) Assuming you have the money you can get very good medical treatment etc without having to wait. But then to the average person this is not available.
    l) You can still have maids, gardeners etc to do your work for you if your conscience allows but watch out or the perverse employment laws. They could come back and say you have employed them as a brain surgeon for 5 years and you would have to provide witnesses and pay solicitors to prove otherwise.

    I’m struggling for more plusses so now is the chance for all the Brazilians out there to help me out.

    Also, Gringoes – please add more gripes as you wish as I am sure I have forgotten many.
    [/QUOTE]

    I suppose the obvious question is what makes the place where you live so fantastic? Would you be able to answer that with such enthusiasm?

    Did you really mean all that? Have you even travelled around Brasil?

    1) So thats just in Brasil? Grow up!

    2)Never heard of road rage? The Brasilains didnt invent it, there are potholes in Buckinghamshire and cyclists have been the wrong way up the high street and on pavements since the bike was invented inspite of all the by laws.

    3) So who are the brave souls going into the Rio favelas, dying in their dozens on and off duty?

    4) Put the lid on the bin or the paper in your pocket if you dont want to put it down the pan.

    5) It floods in Minas,SP, SC, RJ, Bahia,ES the NE is experiencing its highest rainfall ever. Wheres the water problem?

    6) In all my time in Brasil I dont thinkI have ever come across a phone which didnt work. That includes those that operated with a tinny disc. I accept an element of luck though I have travelled widely.

    7) Never heard of direct debit or multi bank? Never seen those little white envelopes next to the cash machine where you put your money in and then credit your account? Never seen the scanner on the bank machine?

    8) Is that just down to not knowing the system? I have had my own experiences with my driving licence but the next application will be a lot simpler. How does that compare to filling in a 40 page (no exageration) for a rent rebate or another 40 page form for social security, or have you filled in any child tax credit forms lately? Just getting things into context here there are six different offices to write to in England when following through an allowance.

    9) Every single electrical item in our home is made in Brasil. They include many “Brastemp” items, CCE amongst others. To this day they are running fine. I believe Gradient is Brasilian and making a fine 42″ plasma or LCD, please correct me, I wouldnt hesitate to buy it. Our car was made in brasil and has run what seems the length and breadth of Brasil more than once on really good roads I might add. I have travelled on them and have not relied on hearsay. The people who maintain it here in JP and formally in Minas took great pride in their work exercising all the care and attention I would expect. The concessionaire in JP is more like a clinic, you could eat off the floor (you started it) the mechanics wear white overalls, a felt blanket is placed over the wings during the service,the car is valeted after the service.

    10) There are insects and ways to deal with them, agreed.

    11) My card is my lifeline. The only time I experienced any problems was when I failed to tell them of my change of address to JP. My fault not theirs.

    12) I rented a car for a month in JP without any problems and a good discount to boot. I had no problems in Rio either.

    13) Didnt you stop for a minute to think that they might be thinking you actually need that stuff? Couldnt you move to an area where they were not so prevalent or did you lie there thinking “I am not going to move because of them?”

    14) Its 220v here in the NE but evrything ran very well in 110v Minas.If you dont like the wiring, sort it out, deal with it, there is plenty of stuff available in the electrical stores.

    15) Frescoball? So you dont have children or you dont like to jump around a bit like a ponce in front of the ladies? Whats the matter with exercising on the beach? Do huge muscular men (and women) intimidate you? If you know the beach is going to be noisy on a bank holiday weekend why do you go there, go somewhere different. Good for you and Brasil. Teenagers have rights too.

    16) I have never tasted poo but I have tasted Diamante Negra. Very nice, so is the ice cream

    17) I take it you have never been to Minas, home of Brasils finest cheeses or sallied into a Carrefour or Hypermarket and mulled over the vast selection before you. This very evening I sampled a delightful Roquetfort and Gorgenzola. I could have been tempted and teased by an excellent selection of wines but I have work to do.

    18) You have me at an advantage as I dont have the time for TV not even my beloved JN but you are an expert, could I suggest SKY. As for the religious nonsense I can assure you it makes a lot of sense to those who are bed ridden like my neighbour who appreciates a good sermon and doesnt want to lectured to by the Assemblia de Deus amongst others. I take it you have actually sat through one of those soul cleansing sessions? Just because it is alien to you doesnt mean it isnt doing someone with a lot less choice, alot more good.

    19) That would be which religion and you speak from what stand point? “Let him without sin cast the first stone”

    I will let you sl*g off my country of adoption and retirement as long as you give me the right to defend it.

    Get things into perspective. I chose to raise my young family here in Brasil rather than my England. If things are bad here then they can only get better. I wish you a very good night.

    My deepest apologies to those offended by the s word as I wasnt even aware it was a swear word.

    I have just checked Ask Oxford and the “s” word means to “criticize abusively” but the Forum has its standards and I must adhere to them. Well done Steelrat, once again I have been kept on the straight and narrow

    tamashin39196,0165162037

  • #66663

    mrcat2
    Member

    It’s fairly simple, really: don’t judge another country by the standards of your own. A lot of these grievances aren’t the least bit annoying to people who live here. I think a few bad experiences may have tainted your perception of the whole. I say that as someone whose first point has been to “vent your frustrations” as well.

  • #66667

    dalmata
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]Before I start I would say that there are things that I DO like about Brazil (perhaps another topic) and until recently I even considered moving there. But let’s look at just some of the negatives:-
    1) Everybody is out to screw you. They seem polite but once they sense you are a Gringo (and thus enormously rich) their sole intent is to screw money out of (admittedly with a smile).
    2) Driving. They might seem nice when out of car but once behind a wheel they are all psychopathic maniacs, intent on murder. Also, be prepared for the crippling potholes and the cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road in the dark without lights.
    3) Lawlessness. There is no law that makes any sense to a European in Brazil. The law is based on who you know and who you can bribe. Oh – and if you are in trouble the LAST people you want to see are the police.
    4) Toilets. Why can’t you put paper down the toilets? Those little bins full of pooey paper by each toilet are just disgusting.
    5) Water. It rains like hell but there is no water. We are told this is political – who knows?
    6) Telephones. Public telephones never work. You have to but a card to use them but you can’t find a phone that works so you are left with this useless card.
    7) Banks. God – I’ll never complain about a UK bank again. Queue for two hours just to pay some money in. Anything you want to do takes an age. When you get to the front of the queue they send you too another queue. And try to withdraw money from an ATM! – make sure that when you find an ATM that works you take out lots because it could be weeks before you find another. You could fully occupy our time just going to the bank.
    8) Bureaucracy. If you need anything official doing be prepared to spend a LONG time. Fill in many forms, wait in many queues, come back again (and again), pay through the nose – and all whilst watching the delightful ladies behind the desk spending all their time kissing each other and filing their nails.
    9) Nothing works properly. Buy any Brazilian made device or appliance and it just won’t work as you might expect and if it does it wont work for very long.
    10) Insects. OK – this is a problem in any tropical country but get used to being bitten by mosquitoes all the time – they love Gringo blood. And the cockroaches (the dreaded barata that needs a brick to kill it) and fleas too – it all adds to the fun.
    11) Credito/Debito – I’m sick of being asked what my card is. And when I give a card I get the usual ‘com chip’ reply and a blank look. I’ve just bought lots of stuff and they are telling me they can’t make the card work. Once or twice I could accept but it seems that credit cards don’t work in about 75% of outlets and there is no explanation why. I have used credit cards in many countries like Russia, Africa and China but in Brazil – “Computer says no”.
    12) Car Rental. Never rent a car. I have given up on this particular horror. You will spend hours filling in forms when you pick it up and get a car with 100 dents in it. You are then expected to ensure that all those dents are accurately recorded because when you take it back they will charge you for any you missed. You are always onto a loser – just don’t do it.
    13) Beach Sellers. You think you might be able to relax on a beach – but no. As soon as you sit down you will have a constant stream of people touting crap jewellery, cashew nuts, oysters. prawns. milho verde, ice cream, hammocks, awful carvings, shells, stick on tattoos, sunglasses, burnt cheese, empadas, pasteis, sandwiches, tablecloths, hats, hair clips etc etc etc. As soon as you send one away, another arrives. Just don’t make eye contact or you will be stuck with them forever.
    14) The Electricity. It’s enough that it is only 110v which wont drive anything useful and it costs an arm and a leg. But it’s the wiring that gets me. No switches, everything has wires hanging out, crappy little plugs that wont stay in the sockets. Forget safety. Electricity and water mix well in Brazil – you will encounter electric showers that spark and fizz when you use them. And don’t worry about that gas tank next to the fizzing ganglion of electric wires. It all adds to the spice of life in Brazil.
    15) The Beach People. Most of the time the beach might be a relatively pleasant place but come the holiday weekend all hell breaks loose. The large groups of dumb looking teenagers listening to Brazilian rap and letting off fireworks. The macho men doing handstands and flexing their muscles. And the bloody frescoball players – aaaaargh – someone explain to me what the point of that game is?
    16) Chocolate. Why, in a country that grows chocolate, is the chocolate so disgusting. Before going this year I got three good sized easter eggs from Tesco for £3 but in Brazil you pay R$40 plus for one pathetic one and they taste like poo.
    17) Milk – you can’t get it – just crap UHT. That goes for all dairy products – no decent cheese etc.
    18) The TV – Oh we are so lucky with our TV, Brazilian TV is just a stream of bad game shows, relgious nonsense and selling.
    19) Oh ….. and don’t get me on to the hypocritical religion……
    OK I have vented my spleen so to be fair I should mention a few plus points:-
    a) The climate. When it’s not unbearably hot it is great.
    b) There are many beautiful places.
    c) There are a plethora of beautiful women to be seen everywhere.
    d) For the decadent amongst us the booze and fags are cheap.
    e) People are generally genuinely nice and friendly (but some let it down so badlly – like everywhere).
    f) You can eat filet mignon every day.
    g) Some great food – fruit, fish etc – but often the luxuries we are used to are missing.
    h) There is a great outdoor life for kids.
    i) The music – Choro, Bossa Nova, Samba – a very rich culture here.
    j) Caipirinha – the best cocktail in the world.
    k) Assuming you have the money you can get very good medical treatment etc without having to wait. But then to the average person this is not available.
    l) You can still have maids, gardeners etc to do your work for you if your conscience allows but watch out or the perverse employment laws. They could come back and say you have employed them as a brain surgeon for 5 years and you would have to provide witnesses and pay solicitors to prove otherwise.
    I’m struggling for more plusses so now is the chance for all the Brazilians out there to help me out.
    Also, Gringoes – please add more gripes as you wish as I am sure I have forgotten many.
    [/QUOTE]

    With the exception of No.4 you could be in almost any Cityin the world certainly any major city in the developing world.

    I don’t know where you are from but I can tell you fromyears of travelling that the easiest thing to do is draw up a list of thingsthat “you” find different, but don’t people go to other countries because theyare different

  • #66668

    fmotoryn
    Member

    [QUOTE=tamashin]
    I suppose the obvious question is what makes the place where you live so fantastic? Would you be able to answer that with such enthusiasm?
    Did you really mean all that? Have you even travelled around Brasil?
    1) So thats just in Brasil? Grow up!
    2)Never heard of road rage? The Brasilains didnt invent it, there are potholes in Buckinghamshire and cyclists have been the wrong way up the high street and on pavements since the bike was invented inspite of all the by laws.
    3) So who are the brave souls going into the Rio favelas, dying in their dozens on and off duty?
    4) Put the lid on the bin or the paper in your pocket if you dont want to put it down the pan.
    5) It floods in Minas,SP, SC, RJ, Bahia,ES the NE is experiencing its highest rainfall ever. Wheres the water problem?
    6) In all my time in Brasil I dont think I have ever come across a phone which didnt work. That includes those that operated with a tinny disc. I accept an element of luck though I have travelled widely.
    7) Never heard of direct debit or multi bank? Never seen those little white envelopes next to the cash machine where you put your money in and then credit your account? Never seen the scanner on the bank machine?
    8) Is that just down to not knowing the system? I have had my own experiences with my driving licence but the next application will be a lot simpler. How does that compare to filling in a 40 page (no exageration) for a rent rebate or another 40 page form for social security, or have you filled in any child tax credit forms lately? Just getting things into context here there are six different offices to write to in England when following through an allowance.
    9) Every single electrical item in our home is made in Brasil. They include many “Brastemp” items, CCE amongst others. To this day they are running fine. I believe Gradient is Brasilian and making a fine 42″ plasma or LCD, please correct me, I wouldnt hesitate to buy it. Our car was made in brasil and has run what seems the length and breadth of Brasil more than once on really good roads I might add. I have travelled on them and have not relied on hearsay. The people who maintain it here in JP and formally in Minas took great pride in their work exercising all the care and attention I would expect. The concessionaire in JP is more like a clinic, you could eat off the floor (you started it) the mechanics wear white overalls, a felt blanket is placed over the wings during the service,the car is valeted after the service.
    10) There are insects and ways to deal with them, agreed.
    11) My card is my lifeline. The only time I experienced any problems was when I failed to tell them of my change of address to JP. My fault not theirs.
    12) I rented a car for a month in JP without any problems and a good discount to boot. I had no problems in Rio either.
    13) Didnt you stop for a minute to think that they might be thinking you actually need that stuff? Couldnt you move to an area where they were not so prevalent or did you lie there thinking “I am not going to move because of them?”
    14) Its 220v here in the NE but evrything ran very well in 110v Minas.If you dont like the wiring, sort it out, deal with it, there is plenty of stuff available in the electrical stores.
    15) Frescoball? So you dont have children or you dont like to jump around a bit like a ponce in front of the ladies? Whats the matter with exercising on the beach? Do huge muscular men (and women) intimidate you? If you know the beach is going to be noisy on a bank holiday weekend why do you go there, go somewhere different. Good for you and Brasil. Teenagers have rights too.
    16) I have never tasted poo but I have tasted Diamante Negra. Very nice, so is the ice cream
    17) I take it you have never been to Minas, home of Brasils finest cheeses or sallied into a Carrefour or Hypermarket and mulled over the vast selection before you. This very evening I sampled a delightful Roquetfort and Gorgenzola. I could have been tempted and teased by an excellent selection of wines but I have work to do.
    18) You have me at an advantage as I dont have the time for TV not even my beloved JN but you are an expert, could I suggest SKY. As for the religious nonsense I can assure you it makes a lot of sense to those who are bed ridden like my neighbour who appreciates a good sermon and doesnt want to lectured to by the Assemblia de Deus amongst others. I take it you have actually sat through one of those soul cleansing sessions? Just because it is alien to you doesnt mean it isnt doing someone with a lot less choice, alot more good.
    19) That would be which religion and you speak from what stand point? “Let him without sin cast the first stone”
    I will let you sl*g off my country of adoption and retirement as long as you give me the right to defend it.
    Get things into perspective. I chose to raise my young family here in Brasil rather than my England. If things are bad here then they can only get better. I wish you a very good night.[/QUOTE]
    Whoa Tamashin – calm down! The forum is “Vent your frustrations” and that is all I was doing. Surely all the things mentioned could be improved upon and thus valid targets for criticism? I never at any point said that the place I live is “so fantastic” and I could probably make a much longer list of things that frustrate me in the UK. Much of the list is very much tongue-in-cheek so there is no need to be so defensive.
    Also, my wife is born and bred in Rio and was here helping me to compile this list so this is not just the view of an uninformed Gringo. Equally I know many Brazilians in the UK who never stop criticising things here so I am just having my revenge.
    I do accept that many of the issues could be particularly regional ones and might even only apply to Buzios where we spend much of our time. However I have seen many of these issues crop up in other forum entries. Many might not apply to Rio or SP but then I am sure there would be others there. I have to admit that I have not travelled Brazil widely but are you saying that a person should not criticise what they believe are widespread issues in the UK unless they have travelled it widely? – I certainly would not. That said, you are right that I should not generalise about such a large and diverse country on the grounds of experiences in one place and thus for the purpose of my post I should qualify the forum subtitle as “Things that annoy you about Buzios, Brazil”. I could demonstrate all of these problems to you in Buzios but accept that JP or any other place could be very different.
    Anyway, I feel I must comment on some of your answers:-
    1) I believe there is a particular attitude targetted at foreigners which is very noticeable in Brazil. And I am already quite grown up thankyou.
    2) I am not talking about road rage but generally dangerous driving. I thing the road death statistics would back me up here.
    3) Good point – but equally who is involved in supplying arms to the Favelas? Who is involved in many clean-up murders? Who will stop a car and take all the driver’s cash if he does not have his full documentation? All this things happen and many more so a few acts of bravery do not make a good police force or legal system. This is a very well known problem so why deny it?
    4) But I do want to put it down the pan!
    5) This may just be a Buzios problem but the water is always running out.
    6) Again, the phone problem must be regional as we can never find one that works properly.
    7) A direct debit is not much use for paying in money! And given my experience of how other things work there is no way I would put a large sum of cash into a little white envelope and post it through a wall in the hope it might appear in my account – but perhaps I am being unfair there. Also ATMs are notoriously unreliable to the point that many of the banks had a person full time attending the machines and helping people when they went wrong.
    8) Are you really telling me that you do not believe Brazil has a problem with bureaucracy? This is one of the biggest gripes I hear all the time from Brazilians themselves.
    9) Again, I may be being unfair and I am sure there are many good products. But at the same time I think the design and quality are sometimes lacking hence the demand for imported goods at sky high prices.
    15) If people want to play Frescoball all I ask is they do it somewhere where there is plenty space and they are not doing it in your face. We go during school holidays and there happens to be a bank holiday weekend when the beach is transformed from paradise to hell by the swarms – it’s just an observation – don’t get so upset. By the way, I have nothing specific against teenagers and compared to our UK ones they are angels in Brazil.
    18&19) From the standpoint of an atheist Brazil’s preoccupation with religiosity is somewhat unsettling but I shouldn’t have mentioned religion as people can get so upset. A topic for an entirely different forum perhaps?
    Finally, I was not sl*gging off Brazil, only raising some criticisms. There are many wonderful things about Brazil and there is not a place in the world that does not have a long list of both negative and positive points. However, this forum is specifically about things that annoy you about Brazil and that is what I used it for. No offence meant.
    Best Regards.

  • #66670

    demiurge
    Member

    and I think living in a tourist trap like Buzios is not a true reflection of life in Brazil. Beach vendors assume you want to buy all that rubbish becuase of your location. Wearing a T shirt saying ‘Nao sou tourista, moro aqui!’ might help.
    I like Brazilan chocolate but it is different from the stuff in the UK but there is a reason for this – it’s hot here! The materials used are different to ensure that it does not melt at ambient temperatures. Otherwise it could only be vended from a chiller cabinet. It’s the same in other hot countries also – not only Brazil
    nevergoingback39196,3564467593

  • #66674

    lenine
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]Before I start I would say that there are things that I DO like about Brazil (perhaps another topic) and until recently I even considered moving there. But let’s look at just some of the negatives:-

    1) Everybody is out to screw you. They seem polite but once they sense you are a Gringo (and thus enormously rich) their sole intent is to screw money out of (admittedly with a smile).

    I can understand that. When I did not speak enough Portuguese, I had to pay more for some little items eg. xerox copy. The zelador of the building sent me to a shop where he does all the copying of the building and told me the price is only 10 centavos per copy. I had to pay 20 centavos. He was so angry when he found out, went with me to the shop and got back my difference for 20 pages. Can‘t really argue when I could not speak the lingo at that time.

    2) Driving. They might seem nice when out of car but once behind a wheel they are all psychopathic maniacs, intent on murder. Also, be prepared for the crippling potholes and the cyclists riding on the wrong side of the road in the dark without lights.

    Sometimes I just wonder if the drivers know what the signalling lights are for . And for most female drivers, unfortunately the mirrors are there for makeup only!!!

    3) Lawlessness. There is no law that makes any sense to a European in Brazil. The law is based on who you know and who you can bribe. Oh – and if you are in trouble the LAST people you want to see are the police.

    I‘ve seen both cases after being here for 8 years. It has its pros and cons.

    4) Toilets. Why can’t you put paper down the toilets? Those little bins full of pooey paper by each toilet are just disgusting.

    Although I‘ve seen signs, I usually make a test before flushing the paper down. If the paper gets stuck, I change cubicle and try again! Usually, it works and I have no idea why some signs are even there in the first place!! And yes, those bin inside the cubicle can look really disgusting!

    In Cyprus, it happens only at home. But public toilets and hotels are usually made in a way where one can flush down the paper.

    5) Water. It rains like hell but there is no water. We are told this is political – who knows?

    Can‘t comment.

    6) Telephones. Public telephones never work. You have to but a card to use them but you can’t find a phone that works so you are left with this useless card.

    Can‘t comment.

    7) Banks. God – I’ll never complain about a UK bank again. Queue for two hours just to pay some money in. Anything you want to do takes an age. When you get to the front of the queue they send you too another queue. And try to withdraw money from an ATM! – make sure that when you find an ATM that works you take out lots because it could be weeks before you find another. You could fully occupy our time just going to the bank.

    Can‘t comment either cos in 8 years, I‘ve only been to the ATM once and even that one time, I could not achieve what I wanted. Mine‘s a case of being nervous … the screen has so many words and before I could finish reading it, it changed and I panicked and just punched ok and ended up buying an insurance for R$9 for the day!

    8) Bureaucracy. If you need anything official doing be prepared to spend a LONG time. Fill in many forms, wait in many queues, come back again (and again), pay through the nose – and all whilst watching the delightful ladies behind the desk spending all their time kissing each other and filing their nails.

    I kind of broke the rules there. Just recently in DETRANS, when I had to update my change of address. My husband was with me and he was told that we have to queue up in a certain line to collect a certain form. When we saw that the queue was horrendous, my husband just wanted to get out and said that he‘ll send for the despachante. What I did, walked straight to guy at the counter, showed him the number of the form which I need and spoke in English. He quickly handed me the form and was more than happy to have gotten rid of this stupid gringa who cannot speak Portuguese

    9) Nothing works properly. Buy any Brazilian made device or appliance and it just won’t work as you might expect and if it does it wont work for very long.

    Have been using a Brastemp fridge for the past 8 years and only needed to change a bulb once. Also been using a Brastemp microwave and no problem so far, and mind you, both are in 220V.

    10) Insects. OK – this is a problem in any tropical country but get used to being bitten by mosquitoes all the time – they love Gringo blood. And the cockroaches (the dreaded barata that needs a brick to kill it) and fleas too – it all adds to the fun.

    It‘s kind of getting used to it. 8 years ago, I had this tremendous allergy that each time I get a mosie bite, I needed a cortisone shot for the swelling to subside. These days, either there‘s less mosies or they‘d gotten sick of my blood.

    11) Credito/Debito – I’m sick of being asked what my card is. And when I give a card I get the usual ‘com chip’ reply and a blank look. I’ve just bought lots of stuff and they are telling me they can’t make the card work. Once or twice I could accept but it seems that credit cards don’t work in about 75% of outlets and there is no explanation why. I have used credit cards in many countries like Russia, Africa and China but in Brazil – “Computer says no”.

    12) Car Rental. Never rent a car. I have given up on this particular horror. You will spend hours filling in forms when you pick it up and get a car with 100 dents in it. You are then expected to ensure that all those dents are accurately recorded because when you take it back they will charge you for any you missed. You are always onto a loser – just don’t do it.

    My husband is renting car all over Brazil since he travels alot and I‘ve never heard him complain. His secretary does it often via the internet, print out his booking form, and he just need to present the form at the car rental counter.

    13) Beach Sellers. You think you might be able to relax on a beach – but no. As soon as you sit down you will have a constant stream of people touting crap jewellery, cashew nuts, oysters. prawns. milho verde, ice cream, hammocks, awful carvings, shells, stick on tattoos, sunglasses, burnt cheese, empadas, pasteis, sandwiches, tablecloths, hats, hair clips etc etc etc. As soon as you send one away, another arrives. Just don’t make eye contact or you will be stuck with them forever.

    Trick is, just buy from one food vendor and trust me, the next food vendor is not approaching cos you‘ve already gotten something to munch. Works with us all the time and sometimes, it‘s really nice that I do not need to move my lazy bottom to go get food and drinks

    14) The Electricity. It’s enough that it is only 110v which wont drive anything useful and it costs an arm and a leg. But it’s the wiring that gets me. No switches, everything has wires hanging out, crappy little plugs that wont stay in the sockets. Forget safety. Electricity and water mix well in Brazil – you will encounter electric showers that spark and fizz when you use them. And don’t worry about that gas tank next to the fizzing ganglion of electric wires. It all adds to the spice of life in Brazil.

    15) The Beach People. Most of the time the beach might be a relatively pleasant place but come the holiday weekend all hell breaks loose. The large groups of dumb looking teenagers listening to Brazilian rap and letting off fireworks. The macho men doing handstands and flexing their muscles. And the bloody frescoball players – aaaaargh – someone explain to me what the point of that game is?

    As long as nothing flies my way, I‘m ok with it. Once I had to confiscate a ball when it flew my way and hit my son on his back. That sent the kids crying to their parents and of course there was a confrontation and crying kids! Asked those parents if they like it to have a ball hit hard on their 3 yrs old back and they pretty much got my point. I get really aggressive when it involves my child.

    16) Chocolate. Why, in a country that grows chocolate, is the chocolate so disgusting. Before going this year I got three good sized easter eggs from Tesco for £3 but in Brazil you pay R$40 plus for one pathetic one and they taste like poo.

    You need to know where to get nice local chocolates! I go to a place in Interlagos and they have wonderful chocolates with all kinds of fillings at reasonable prices. Of course there‘s also Patisserie Douce France in Shopping Morumbi and Al Jau.

    17) Milk – you can’t get it – just crap UHT. That goes for all dairy products – no decent cheese etc.

    Lucky for me, I‘m Chinese and dairy products are not so much our cup of tea!

    18) The TV – Oh we are so lucky with our TV, Brazilian TV is just a stream of bad game shows, relgious nonsense and selling.

    They also have NOVELAS 🙂

    19) Oh ….. and don’t get me on to the hypocritical religion……

    OK I have vented my spleen so to be fair I should mention a few plus points:-

    a) The climate. When it’s not unbearably hot it is great.
    b) There are many beautiful places.
    c) There are a plethora of beautiful women to be seen everywhere.
    d) For the decadent amongst us the booze and fags are cheap.
    e) People are generally genuinely nice and friendly (but some let it down so badlly – like everywhere).

    Best place for kids. All waiters in restaurants are genuinely nice and friendly to children.

    f) You can eat filet mignon every day.

    Can‘t agree more … never ate such good meat my whole life in SIN – all imported and quality just not the same besides being extremely overpriced.

    g) Some great food – fruit, fish etc – but often the luxuries we are used to are missing.
    h) There is a great outdoor life for kids.
    i) The music – Choro, Bossa Nova, Samba – a very rich culture here.
    j) Caipirinha – the best cocktail in the world.
    k) Assuming you have the money you can get very good medical treatment etc without having to wait. But then to the average person this is not available.
    l) You can still have maids, gardeners etc to do your work for you if your conscience allows but watch out or the perverse employment laws. They could come back and say you have employed them as a brain surgeon for 5 years and you would have to provide witnesses and pay solicitors to prove otherwise.

    I’m struggling for more plusses so now is the chance for all the Brazilians out there to help me out.

    Also, Gringoes – please add more gripes as you wish as I am sure I have forgotten many.
    [/QUOTE]

  • #66679

    fmotoryn
    Member

    [QUOTE=nevergoingback]Where are all of these toilets that don’t take paper? I have done a lot of crapping in a lot of places during the time I’ve been here and every time I throw the paper down the toilet. Never have I seen a sign saying don’t or a bin obviously full of sh*tty paper should the sign not be there. Are you talking about houses built away from the main sewer pipe, perhaps with septic tanks? I have heard others talk about this on Gringoes also but I’m confused![/QUOTE]
    I work in a relatively new building in downtown Rio (R. Assembleia). There are signs in the crapper saying “favor não jogar papel higienico no vaso sanitario”.

  • #66680

    phsp23
    Member

    I have never seen this here Sven. I saw it a lot in Greece and other Southern Eurpean countries. I doubt it’s the size of the esgoto that is the problem – it must be something to do with the masses of paper accumulating at the sewage treatment plant and having to dispose of it.
    (or all those gringo-sized turds that the fat cats at Haliburton curl off!)
    nevergoingback39196,4089583333

  • #66681

    demiurge
    Member

    [QUOTE=jamie1]

    the chocolate here is crap yes looks good in the wrapper but the taste is bloody terrible worse then cooking chocolate

    dont no why cadburys have not made a move on the market they would clean up.

    [/QUOTE]
    Actually, most “chocolate” in Brazil is not really chocolate. To be real chocolate it has to contain at least 33% of cacao. Most stuff that is sold as chocolate has in fact much less cacao. This holds especially true for those horrible easter eggs.

  • #66683

    phsp23
    Member

    It’s like soft plastic!

  • #66692

    twinstar633
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]
    Actually, most “chocolate” in Brazil is not really chocolate. To be real chocolate it has to contain at least 33% of cacao. Most stuff that is sold as chocolate has in fact much less cacao. This holds especially true for those horrible easter eggs.
    [/QUOTE]

    I hate the average Easter Egg (as in most supermarkets they hang them weeeeks before Easter, the have so much “parafina” in it that is tasteless). But there are lovely home made style ones, you just need to know where (Flora gave some hint). Have you tried Ofners? YAAAAMY

    MonicaB39196,4554050926

  • #66693

    demiurge
    Member

    [QUOTE=nevergoingback] it must be something to do with the masses of paper accumulating at the sewage treatment plant and having to dispose of it.
    [/QUOTE]

    Russell once mentioned that he had some input into the design of sewerage treatment plants and that paper wasnt a problem

  • #66699

    demiurge
    Member

    Tamashim –
    Our sewage treatment plant isn’t designed for paper. It isn’t designed for anything. It doesn’t exist except on the sign with the politicians names on it. The turds leaving my neighborhood have a chance to dissolve before reaching the river but paper doesn’t. So river water with a high fecal coliform count and solid wastes flows downriver into the intake of the water treatment facility where it is sucked up, filtered, chlorinated and blessed as potable before being piped to our houses. It’s recycled…It’s Green!..(well actually it is a little brown)
    That’s how it works in my Brazil.
    DUNGA39196,4887384259

  • #66702

    tymnstikese
    Member

    [QUOTE=nevergoingback] it must be something to do with the masses of paper accumulating at the sewage treatment plant and having to dispose of it.[/QUOTE]
    I worked for a company that did a lot of water treatment and some waste water treatment in the Caribbean including the old Club Med on Paradise Island in Nassau. There was an inlet strainer basket that was hard to get the guys to clean out. It wasn’t clogged with TP…I’ll give you one guess…
    “Dats not my job, mahn…”

  • #66703

    AnnaO
    Member

    Maybe we should import an idea from teh past? “groom of the stool” would be a solution?… no toilet paper in the bin or in the the toilet!!

    http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/W/worstjobs/tudor .html

  • #66708

    Garry
    Member

    Hello Folks,
    Newbie BTW, maybe I can shed some light on the toilet paper issue, I,ve been living in Brazil for the last 30 years,and have seen probably what there is to be seen, on this subject.
    The reason some Brazilians still use the basket for the TP, is that many years ago, TP of the “red type” (200 grit sandpaper),was the only one available (today the cheapest and available in white),which was/is made from a paper that did not dissolve very well with water, so if you flushed it, with time the pipes would clog, almost like flushing rags down the pipes. Nowadays, with advent of the “desintegrating” type, there is no need to dispose of it, in the basket. What I beleive happens in comercial buildings, is that,the building adminitrator, in order to “save a buck” will use this type, being the cheapest, and available in huge rolls, almost like paper towells, and knowing that the habbit of some brazilians (lower income,remember cheapest available ?)is to dispose of the paper in the basket, than they,administration can get away without having to call the Roto Rooter man, in the end, most of the time, “o barato sai caro”. My 2 cents worth!
    Ed

  • #66711

    x32792
    Member

    I agree Ed, throwing in the basket is an ancient custom that people cling onto un-neccessarily!

  • #66715

    x32792
    Member

    [QUOTE=DUNGA] Tamashim –
    Our sewage treatment plant isn’t designed for paper. It isn’t designed for anything. It doesn’t exist except on the sign with the politicians names on it. The turds leaving my neighborhood have a chance to dissolve before reaching the river but paper doesn’t. So river water with a high fecal coliform count and solid wastes flows downriver into the intake of the water treatment facility where it is sucked up, filtered, chlorinated and blessed as potable before being piped to our houses. It’s recycled…It’s Green!..(well actually it is a little brown)
    That’s how it works in my Brazil.
    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks Dunga for enlightening me. I know its a subject which comes up regularly and I remembered that little snippet from Russell.

  • #66718

    AnnaO
    Member

    Brazil is a big and varied country, and here in the Land Where Time Stands Still it is sometimes best to respect the ancient customs. DUNGA39196,5502083333

  • #66719

    tymnstikese
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk][QUOTE=tamashin]

    I suppose the obvious question is what makes the place where you live so fantastic? Would you be able to answer that with such enthusiasm?

    Did you really mean all that? Have you even travelled around Brasil?

    1) So thats just in Brasil? Grow up!

    2)Never heard of road rage? The Brasilains didnt invent it, there are potholes in Buckinghamshire and cyclists have been the wrong way up the high street and on pavements since the bike was invented inspite of all the by laws.

    3) So who are the brave souls going into the Rio favelas, dying in their dozens on and off duty?

    4) Put the lid on the bin or the paper in your pocket if you dont want to put it down the pan.

    5) It floods in Minas,SP, SC, RJ, Bahia,ES the NE is experiencing its highest rainfall ever. Wheres the water problem?

    6) In all my time in Brasil I dont think I have ever come across a phone which didnt work. That includes those that operated with a tinny disc. I accept an element of luck though I have travelled widely.

    7) Never heard of direct debit or multi bank? Never seen those little white envelopes next to the cash machine where you put your money in and then credit your account? Never seen the scanner on the bank machine?

    8) Is that just down to not knowing the system? I have had my own experiences with my driving licence but the next application will be a lot simpler. How does that compare to filling in a 40 page (no exageration) for a rent rebate or another 40 page form for social security, or have you filled in any child tax credit forms lately? Just getting things into context here there are six different offices to write to in England when following through an allowance.

    9) Every single electrical item in our home is made in Brasil. They include many “Brastemp” items, CCE amongst others. To this day they are running fine. I believe Gradient is Brasilian and making a fine 42″ plasma or LCD, please correct me, I wouldnt hesitate to buy it. Our car was made in brasil and has run what seems the length and breadth of Brasil more than once on really good roads I might add. I have travelled on them and have not relied on hearsay. The people who maintain it here in JP and formally in Minas took great pride in their work exercising all the care and attention I would expect. The concessionaire in JP is more like a clinic, you could eat off the floor (you started it) the mechanics wear white overalls, a felt blanket is placed over the wings during the service,the car is valeted after the service.

    10) There are insects and ways to deal with them, agreed.

    11) My card is my lifeline. The only time I experienced any problems was when I failed to tell them of my change of address to JP. My fault not theirs.

    12) I rented a car for a month in JP without any problems and a good discount to boot. I had no problems in Rio either.

    13) Didnt you stop for a minute to think that they might be thinking you actually need that stuff? Couldnt you move to an area where they were not so prevalent or did you lie there thinking “I am not going to move because of them?”

    14) Its 220v here in the NE but evrything ran very well in 110v Minas.If you dont like the wiring, sort it out, deal with it, there is plenty of stuff available in the electrical stores.

    15) Frescoball? So you dont have children or you dont like to jump around a bit like a ponce in front of the ladies? Whats the matter with exercising on the beach? Do huge muscular men (and women) intimidate you? If you know the beach is going to be noisy on a bank holiday weekend why do you go there, go somewhere different. Good for you and Brasil. Teenagers have rights too.

    16) I have never tasted poo but I have tasted Diamante Negra. Very nice, so is the ice cream

    17) I take it you have never been to Minas, home of Brasils finest cheeses or sallied into a Carrefour or Hypermarket and mulled over the vast selection before you. This very evening I sampled a delightful Roquetfort and Gorgenzola. I could have been tempted and teased by an excellent selection of wines but I have work to do.

    18) You have me at an advantage as I dont have the time for TV not even my beloved JN but you are an expert, could I suggest SKY. As for the religious nonsense I can assure you it makes a lot of sense to those who are bed ridden like my neighbour who appreciates a good sermon and doesnt want to lectured to by the Assemblia de Deus amongst others. I take it you have actually sat through one of those soul cleansing sessions? Just because it is alien to you doesnt mean it isnt doing someone with a lot less choice, alot more good.

    19) That would be which religion and you speak from what stand point? “Let him without sin cast the first stone”

    I will let you sl*g off my country of adoption and retirement as long as you give me the right to defend it.

    Get things into perspective. I chose to raise my young family here in Brasil rather than my England. If things are bad here then they can only get better. I wish you a very good night.[/QUOTE]

    Whoa Tamashin – calm down! The forum is “Vent your frustrations” and that is all I was doing. (Me too)

    Surely all the things mentioned could be improved upon and thus valid targets for criticism? I never at any point said that the place I live is “so fantastic” and I could probably make a much longer list of things that frustrate me in the UK. Much of the list is very much tongue-in-cheek so there is no need to be so defensive.

    Also, my wife is born and bred in Rio and was here helping me to compile this list so this is not just the view of an uninformed Gringo. Equally I know many Brazilians in the UK who never stop criticising things here so I am just having my revenge.

    I do accept that many of the issues could be particularly regional ones and might even only apply to Buzios where we spend much of our time. However I have seen many of these issues crop up in other forum entries. Many might not apply to Rio or SP but then I am sure there would be others there. I have to admit that I have not travelled Brazil widely but are you saying that a person should not criticise what they believe are widespread issues in the UK unless they have travelled it widely? – I certainly would not. That said, you are right that I should not generalise about such a large and diverse country on the grounds of experiences in one place and thus for the purpose of my post I should qualify the forum subtitle as “Things that annoy you about Buzios, Brazil”.

    (Thank you)

    I could demonstrate all of these problems to you in Buzios but accept that JP or any other place could be very different.

    Anyway, I feel I must comment on some of your answers:-

    1) I believe there is a particular attitude targetted at foreigners which is very noticeable in Brazil. And I am already quite grown up thankyou.

    2) I am not talking about road rage but generally dangerous driving. I thing the road death statistics would back me up here.

    3) Good point – but equally who is involved in supplying arms to the Favelas? Who is involved in many clean-up murders? Who will stop a car and take all the driver’s cash if he does not have his full documentation? All this things happen and many more so a few acts of bravery do not make a good police force or legal system. This is a very well known problem so why deny it? (its the tarring of everyone with the same brush)

    4) But I do want to put it down the pan!

    5) This may just be a Buzios problem but the water is always running out.

    6) Again, the phone problem must be regional as we can never find one that works properly.

    7) A direct debit is not much use for paying in money! And given my experience of how other things work there is no way I would put a large sum of cash into a little white envelope and post it through a wall in the hope it might appear in my account – but perhaps I am being unfair there. Also ATMs are notoriously unreliable to the point that many of the banks had a person full time attending the machines and helping people when they went wrong.(The attendants are there to help people who are confused by the technology or who are unable to read the instructions)

    8) Are you really telling me that you do not believe Brazil has a problem with bureaucracy? This is one of the biggest gripes I hear all the time from Brazilians themselves.(I was trying to put some perspective to it. How often do people complain about NHS, SS and all the other systems like the immigration system? It isnt just Brasil))

    9) Again, I may be being unfair and I am sure there are many good products. But at the same time I think the design and quality are sometimes lacking hence the demand for imported goods at sky high prices.( I am sure people would welcome examples. As for design, have you ever looked at a magazine stall at the rows of magazines on kitchen, bedroom, bathroom design and all the things that can be put in them)

    15) If people want to play Frescoball all I ask is they do it somewhere where there is plenty space and they are not doing it in your face. We go during school holidays and there happens to be a bank holiday weekend when the beach is transformed from paradise to hell by the swarms – it’s just an observation – don’t get so upset. By the way, I have nothing specific against teenagers and compared to our UK ones they are angels in Brazil.

    18&19) From the standpoint of an atheist Brazil’s preoccupation with religiosity is somewhat unsettling but I shouldn’t have mentioned religion as people can get so upset. A topic for an entirely different forum perhaps?

    Finally, I was not sl*gging off Brazil, only raising some criticisms. There are many wonderful things about Brazil and there is not a place in the world that does not have a long list of both negative and positive points. However, this forum is specifically about things that annoy you about Brazil and that is what I used it for. No offence meant.

    Best Regards.

    [/QUOTE]

  • #66721

    [QUOTE=MonicaB]

    Maybe we should import an idea from teh past? “groom of the stool” would be a solution?… no toilet paper in the bin or in the the toilet!!

    http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/W/worstjobs/tudor .html

    [/QUOTE]
    I don‘t think we can find enough well educated and influential people to take the job.

  • #66735

    x32792
    Member

    I have lived in brazil for many years and YES, it’s frustrating at times but i can tell you, i wouldnt live any where else… I’m a Born and Raised American but have a truly Brazilian Soul… People, you need to be FLEXABLE, and don’t sweat it so much… last time i was in the states a police man at the airport asked me if i thought it was strange to have to remove my shoes so they could be inspected.. I said no man IN BRAZIL I PRACTICALLY REMOVE MY CLOTHING JUST TO GET INTO THE BANK TO PAY MY BILLS. While living here you need to forget the rest of the world and how things work.. You learn to drive in Sao Paulo and Rio( although Santos has the worst drivers in the world) you can drive anywhere… Look on the positive side.. The Government sucks but the people are great…It’s sometimes like living in the Wild West always an adventure…..

  • #66736

    Sian
    Member

    Well put Gringa….
    These whiners need to get over it or do something to change it.
    john.jane39196,6584837963

  • #66751

    Oppomallorb
    Member

    I’m not sure how the system works in the UK but here in Brazil almost everyone has a Bidet in the house or a Mangeira next to the vaso, if thats the case then use it.. so much better and more sanitary than paper
    SAVE A TREE……

  • #66752

    Oppomallorb
    Member

    I’m glad you said it first as I was too embarrassed! I use this hose-pipe device also. I only use the paper to blow my nose!

  • #66756

    dalmata
    Member


    ESTA DE PARABENS… TAKES PEOPLE FOREVER TO LEARN ABOUT THAT

  • #66765

    moumitamou
    Member

    [QUOTE=Edumen]Hello Folks,
    Newbie BTW, maybe I can shed some light on the toilet paper issue, I,ve been living in Brazil for the last 30 years,and have seen probably what there is to be seen, on this subject.
    The reason some Brazilians still use the basket for the TP, is that many years ago, TP of the “red type” (200 grit sandpaper),was the only one available (today the cheapest and available in white),which was/is made from a paper that did not dissolve very well with water, so if you flushed it, with time the pipes would clog, almost like flushing rags down the pipes. Nowadays, with advent of the “desintegrating” type, there is no need to dispose of it, in the basket. What I beleive happens in comercial buildings, is that,the building adminitrator, in order to “save a buck” will use this type, being the cheapest, and available in huge rolls, almost like paper towells, and knowing that the habbit of some brazilians (lower income,remember cheapest available ?)is to dispose of the paper in the basket, than they,administration can get away without having to call the Roto Rooter man, in the end, most of the time, “o barato sai caro”. My 2 cents worth!

    Ed [/QUOTE]

    Thanks alot Ed for the enlightenment … did not know at all.

  • #66767

    SyncVeittee
    Member

    [QUOTE=Gringa SSZ]I’m not sure how the system works in the UK but here in Brazil almost everyone has a Bidet in the house or a Mangeira next to the vaso, if thats the case then use it.. so much better and more sanitary than paper
    SAVE A TREE…… [/QUOTE]

    Oh heck, so thats what its for

  • #66772

    Al Morrison
    Member

    Be careful Tamashin If you use too much pressure on the water you will end up re-decorating the bathroom!

  • #66774

    Aaronk
    Member

    [QUOTE=nevergoingback]Be careful Tamashin If you use too much pressure on the water you will end up re-decorating the bathroom! [/QUOTE]

    Though the high water pressure does a good job of getting the muck out from between the toes

  • #66778

    Greenback
    Member

    I always thought that thing was a fancy water fountain.

  • #66780

    Oh heck, so thats what its for

    [/QUOTE]
    and here you thought that was a special drinking fountain for the dog to use

  • #66782

    AnnaO
    Member

    The hose is also useful to drown the ants that tend to be all over the bathroom.

  • #66784

    AnnaO
    Member

    OK – We don’t have the fountains in the UK and bidets are rare so I accept the possible solution. But you still have a wet bum to dry – what do you use? Do you take your towel with you everywhere? Clearly the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was inspired by Brazil.

  • #66786

    AnnaO
    Member

    I think we are talking about domestic use only here!

  • #66789

    Garry
    Member

    I have a lot of trouble flushing my “imported” toilet paper down the dunny (it’s very tough). I brought a suitcase full of it with me from Australia.

    Here’swhat I mean

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvjRyv0c5M

  • #66791

    floripa
    Member

    [QUOTE=illuminaut] The hose is also useful to drown the ants that tend to be all over the bathroom.
    [/QUOTE]
    ANTS are a sign of money coming into your house….
    Now if that were true, then brazil wouldnt have any poor people would it Why we’d be like Dubai

  • #66800

    dalmata
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]OK – We don’t have the fountains in the UK and bidets are rare so I accept the possible solution. But you still have a wet bum to dry – what do you use? Do you take your towel with you everywhere? Clearly the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was inspired by Brazil. [/QUOTE]

    If you‘re home, use the towel of course

  • #66802

    AnnaO
    Member

    [QUOTE=Gringa SSZ] [QUOTE=illuminaut] The hose is also useful to drown the ants that tend to be all over the bathroom.
    [/QUOTE]

    ANTS are a sign of money coming into your house….
    Now if that were true, then brazil wouldnt have any poor people would it Why we’d be like Dubai [/QUOTE]

    Errr, last I heard, if you have ants in the bathroom, especially in the vaso, it means someone is having diabetes … or you may have a dead cockroach somewhere and the ants are just having a feast.

  • #66806

    neb2886
    Member

    [QUOTE=Flora]

    If you‘re home, use the towel of course

    [/QUOTE]
    I hope you all label your towels carefully.

  • #66807

    demiurge
    Member

    [QUOTE=Flora]

    [QUOTE=Gringa SSZ] [QUOTE=illuminaut] The hose is also useful to drown the ants that tend to be all over the bathroom.
    [/QUOTE]

    ANTS are a sign of money coming into your house….
    Now if that were true, then brazil wouldnt have any poor people would it Why we’d be like Dubai [/QUOTE]

    Errr, last I heard, if you have ants in the bathroom, especially in the vaso, it means someone is having diabetes … or you may have a dead cockroach somewhere and the ants are just having a feast.

    [/QUOTE]

    We have ants in the bathroom and my wife is a diabetic. I’d ask the ants to move out but I don’t think they’ll respond to that. Not sure what else to do

  • #66810

    dalmata
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk] [QUOTE=Flora]

    If you‘re home, use the towel of course

    [/QUOTE]
    I hope you all label your towels carefully.
    [/QUOTE]

    Hey, I am from Macae very close to Buzios. Also spent a lot of time in Buzios. So beautiful there.

    I don’t think you would need labels just look for the skid marks on it.

  • #66811

    or you may have a dead cockroach somewhere and the ants are just having a feast.
    FLORA, we all know that the cockroaches down here are the size of 747 planes but i have seen them swim like they are doing a canal crossing from England to france… maybe even have some gold medalists in the bunch

  • #66812

    phsp23
    Member

    I don’t have diabetes but my bathroom is right next to the kitchen. I think they made the bathroom their home base from which they plan the excursions into the kitchen. Ah well, nothing a can of RAID can’t fix, at least temporarily. In the meantime it’s a fun exercise to shoot them off the wall using the water hose while doing my business…

  • #66816

    Greenback
    Member

    HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA you hit the bulls eye every time??????

  • #66817

    moonchie0
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk] I hope you all label your towels carefully.
    [/QUOTE]

    Don‘t have the paper problem at home so no towels labelling either

  • #66818

    SyncVeittee
    Member

    [QUOTE=Gringa SSZ]or you may have a dead cockroach somewhere and the ants are just having a feast.

    FLORA, we all know that the cockroaches down here are the size of 747 planes but i have seen them swim like they are doing a canal crossing from England to france… maybe even have some gold medalists in the bunch [/QUOTE]

    I do love your expression of words

  • #66819

    moonchie0
    Member

    [QUOTE=illuminaut]I don’t have diabetes but my bathroom is right next to the kitchen. I think they made the bathroom their home base from which they plan the excursions into the kitchen. Ah well, nothing a can of RAID can’t fix, at least temporarily. In the meantime it’s a fun exercise to shoot them off the wall using the water hose while doing my business… [/QUOTE]

  • #66825

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]OK – We don’t have the fountains in the UK and bidets are rare so I accept the possible solution. But you still have a wet bum to dry – what do you use? Do you take your towel with you everywhere? Clearly the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was inspired by Brazil. [/QUOTE]

    Havent you ever wondered why the hairdryer is always in the cupboard under the wash hand basin? Low heat ofcourse

  • #66854

    Chato
    Member

    [QUOTE=tamashin]

    Havent you ever wondered why the hairdryer is always in the cupboard under the wash hand basin? Low heat ofcourse

    [/QUOTE]
    Which adds to the many ways to get electrocuted in the bathroom! I guess you could also use that to dry the wet floor after washing all the ants away.

  • #66863

    Aaronk
    Member

    Here’s a little info found on a public web page, enough to make your eyes water

    Before paper was widely available, a variety of materials were employed. The Romans used an L-shaped stick (like a hockey stick) made of wood or precious metal; at public toilets people used sponges on sticks that were kept in saltwater between uses. In arid climates, sand, powdered brick, or earth was used. Until the late nineteenth century, Muslims were advised to use three stones to clean up. One favorite tool was a mussel shell, used for centuries. Until the early twentieth century, corn cobs were used.

    In the late fifteenth century, when paper became widely available, it began to replace other traditional materials. Sometimes old correspondence was pressed into service, as were pages from old books, magazines, newspapers, and catalogs. People also used old paper bags, envelopes, and other bits of scrap paper, which were cut into pieces and threaded onto a string that was kept in the privy.

    Toilet paper is a fairly modern invention, making its debut around 1880 when it was developed by the British Perforated Paper Company. Made of a coarser paper than its modern incarnation, it was sold in boxes of individual squares. In America, the Scott Paper Company made its Waldorf brand toilet paper in rolls as early as 1890. The first rolls were not perforated, and lavatory dispensers had serrated teeth to cut the paper as needed. It was a nearly “unmentionable” product for years, and consumers were often embarrassed to ask for it by name or even be seen buying it. Timid shoppers simply asked for “Two, please,” and the clerk presumably knew what they wanted. To keep things discreet, toilet paper was packaged and sold in brown paper wrappers.

  • #66901

    Aaronk
    Member

    Interesting-hygiene history.

    When I first saw the bidet thing in the bathrooms, my husband and I thought it was to spray the floors clean, then clean the toilet.

    Nancee39197,6413657407

  • #66924

    Oweniactict
    Member

    When I first saw the bidet thing in the bathrooms, my husband and I thought it was to spray the floors clean, then clean the toilet.
    Edited by Nancee on 25 April 2007 at 3:23pm
    HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAH like a do it yourself spray cleaner….good things there are drains on the floor or your place would be flooded…

  • #66997

    Al Morrison
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]OK – We don’t have the fountains in the UK and bidets are rare so I accept the possible solution. But you still have a wet bum to dry – what do you use? Do you take your towel with you everywhere? Clearly the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was inspired by Brazil.[/QUOTE]
    Can‘t you just sit on the bidet and wait for your bum to dry? That must be why brazilians are always late for appointments. They have to save trees.

  • #66998

    cwig
    Member

    Or to really confuse this thread you could dry your bum with paper towels and throw them down the vaso!

  • #66999

    Oppomallorb
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk]
    I hope you all label your towels carefully.
    [/QUOTE]
    Why? When you take a shower don‘t you use the towel to dry your bum??????

  • #67000

    luizpinheiro
    Member

    [QUOTE=tamashin]

    Havent you ever wondered why the hairdryer is always in the cupboard under the wash hand basin? Low heat ofcourse

    [/QUOTE]

    At the fitness club in England, many men dried their wedding tackle and feet with a hair dryer. Not many dried their hair because it was thought to be bad for the hair, especially when one was losing it (in both respects)

  • #67060

    Buziosuk,

    I got a kick out of those. I share many of the same frustrations. I’ve been living here for about 9 months and I wish I had found this forum earlier to vent!

    I particularly agree with you about the chocolate and milk, horrible stuff here. The milk tastes old and cardboardy, although the Parmalat milk in plastic containers is a little better IMO.

    I try to avoid the popular beaches as much as I can. Go to the beaches that are a little more out of the way. You’ll find that Brazilian tourists won’t want to drive all that way so they’re less crowded and also MUCH more beautiful (no backdrop of high-rise hotels). It’s well-worth it.

    One thing I don’t remember you mentioning that especially bothers me is the crime (but maybe that could go under people trying to rip you off). In 22 years in the US I was never mugged or threatened. Here it has happened twice in 9 months (though they didn’t get my stuff thankfully). That might have to do with living in Campinas though. I would live in Minas if I could (their cheese really is wonderful).

    Bureaucracy, that cannot be mentioned enough. Sometimes I think I’d rather have a tooth pulled than go to the Policia Federal again.

    Whew, I feel better already! But in the end, it can’t be that bad or we wouldn’t be here (at least I wouldn’t).

  • #67191

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    one more to add on … WHY I HATE DRIVING IN THE RAIN!

    Seems that Brazilians love driving in the rain without any lights on. Out of 10 cars, you‘re lucky to have 2 cars with lights on. Do they even know what the lights are for? Did they not learn that when heavy rain, whether it‘s day or night, turn on those lights!! It really makes me nervous and worse of all, behind a van without any brake lights … !!

  • #67205

    danpatel
    Member

    Broken lights, laziness and ignorance – in no particular order of preference

  • #67219

    glirurlTiny
    Member

    [QUOTE=gwyatt202]

    Bureaucracy, that cannot be mentioned enough. Sometimes I think I’d rather have a tooth pulled than go to the Policia Federal again.

    [/QUOTE]

  • #67279

    Crybeaddy
    Member

    [QUOTE=illuminaut] That reminds me, why do so many cars in general don’t use lights at night (or just parking lights)? Is it because people feel it’s more dangerous to be seen on the road than not being seen? I can understand turning off the headlights when you enter favelas or deserted streets, but otherwise it seems reckless.
    [/QUOTE]
    if i recall correctly its because there is a law about using head lights in the city when there is already public illumination…
    At least i think thats it.. I always wondered to until i asked and was told about this very obscure law…
    go figure, who knew

  • #67288

    danpatel
    Member

    What is the point of all these laws if they are not going to be enforced? It must give someone, somewhere something to do I suppose. Let’s make a law stating that it’s illegal for penguins to fly!nevergoingback39199,7059375

  • #67291

    LolyBH
    Member

    No-No-No-No
    Use your headlights at night!!!!!
    From the “Codigo de Transito Brasileiro
    Art. 40. Ouso de luzes em veículo obedecerá √†s seguintes determina√ß√µes:
    I – ocondutor manterá acesos os faróis do veículo, utilizando luz baixa, durante anoite e durante o dia nos t√∫neis providos de ilumina√ßão p√∫blica;
    II – nasvias não iluminadas o condutor deve usar luz alta, exceto ao cruzar com outroveículo ou ao segui-lo;

  • #67294

    Sian
    Member

    What is the point of all these laws if they are not going to be enforced? It must give someone, somewhere something to do I suppose. Let’s make a law stating that it’s illegal for penguins to fly!
    Edited by nevergoingback on 27 April 2007 at 4:56pm
    Penguins only dance and sing everybody knows they can’t fly HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
    Dunga Quote
    No-No-No-No
    Use your headlights at night!!!!!
    From the “Codigo de Transito Brasileiro”
    Art. 40. O uso de luzes em veículo obedecerá √†s seguintes determina√ß√µes:
    I – o condutor manterá acesos os faróis do veículo, utilizando luz baixa, durante a noite e durante o dia nos t√∫neis providos de ilumina√ßão p√∫blica;
    II – nas vias não iluminadas o condutor deve usar luz alta, exceto ao cruzar com outro veículo ou ao segui-lo;
    Luz Baixo aka parking lights in Brazilian terms, here in Santos its a city ordinance that you can’t use highbeams aka Luz Alto on city streets, only on Interstate Highways….
    No wonder people are dying in traffic accidents.. besides the fact they probably bought their driver’s licenses at LOJAS AMERICANAS instead of taking the test… opsss that was me HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH(KIDDING GUYS)

  • #67298

    Anonymous

    Is that full-beam or normal beam on the headlights (normal beam is usually slightly dipped)? I’m guessing luxo baixo means normal beam and that there is some other word for the running lights (or side lights as we call them in the UK)
    nevergoingback39199,7344675926

  • #67493

    Anonymous

    I think it√Ç‘s the environmental consiousness if the Brazilian that makes them not use their headlights at night or in the rain. Haveing lights on in your car uses gasoline (eventhough very little) this causes harm to the environment, hence that prefer to drive without lights.

  • #67496

    Greenback
    Member

    I can’t tell if you are being ironic, Sven. Maybe it’s like balancing their environmental conscience. Driving with no lights allows them to bring home 6 items from the supermarket in 12 plastic bags!

  • #67499

    JohnPeople
    Member

    Of course, driving without headlights is likely to reduce the number of cars on the road also.

  • #67500

    Anonymous

    ngb –
    Yes, Luz Alta, Luz Baixa; High-Beams, Low-Beams; Fárois being Headlights. Luzes de Posi√ßão are parking lights and then there are Luz de Placa and your Pisca-Alerta in the code as well.
    Hey…as well as using gasoline, running your headlights might wear out your wiring and is certainly impolite; you could wake up a sleeping truck driver in the oncoming lane.

  • #67502

    Aaronk
    Member

    [QUOTE=nevergoingback]I can’t tell if you are being ironic, Sven. Maybe it’s like balancing their environmental conscience. Driving with no lights allows them to bring home 6 items from the supermarket in 12 plastic bags! [/QUOTE]
    Ironic yes, but I‘ve actually once heard someone say he does not use lights because they use some gasoline and gasoline is expensive ….
    I guess an accident is more expensive.

  • #67504

    Greenback
    Member

    Also, as the lights have to be used to signal “Get out of the way” the effect would be far less dramatic if the lights were already on.

  • #67509

    JohnPeople
    Member

    So what does it mean when someone flashes their headlights (during the day)? In the Uk this tends to imply that you are yielding – like to allow someone to pass a narrow space or get out of a parking bay, but here I seen a cars flashing and not stopping.

  • #67510

    Greenback
    Member

    Yes – in the UK flashing your lights means ‘you can go’ but this is not the case in other parts of Europe or in Brazil where it seems to mean ‘get out of my way’. Indeed it is a warning for you ‘not’ to go. Misunderstanding the meaning of this signal could be disastrous.

  • #67532

    dalmata
    Member

    True, so how do you signal one to pass or “go ahead”?
    In the states when you want someone to cross in front of you, at a crosswalk for example, you usually use your hand and geture – kinda of like come here or the price is right flip – so to speak… I did this in Brazil for a lady that wanted to cross in front of my car and my wife started laughing saying that I had just propositioned the lady.?.?.?
    The “funny” thing is I have done this with her (better half) for years here, and got no reaction, usually the same thing happens here as there… maybe she was just setting me up.

  • #67538

    aman
    Member

    [QUOTE=buziosuk] Public telephones never work. You have to but a card to use them but you can’t find a phone that works so you are left with this useless card. [/QUOTE]
    Ok, here are some instructions about broken public phones (from Telefonica’s website – local phone company in SP State – must not be so different in other places)
    1) Take note of phone # & exact address (if you can’t read phone number, press #).
    2) Notify the phone company (ok, requires some work, patience, and you won’t be able to use the phone right away, but…)
    Se um telefone não estiver funcionando, a Telef√¥nica precisa ficar sabendo.
    Para isso, ela tem funcionários prontos para atender às liga√ßões de quem precisa de um conserto.
    A Central de Atendimento a Clientes √© um sistema de atendimento feitopara você informar à Telef√¥nica sobre problemas com os telefones, sejade uma Linha Residencial, Comercial, Linha Privativa ou mesmo umTelefone P√∫blico. E você não paga a liga√ßão.
    Sempre que você precisar, ligue para a Central de Atendimento
    103 15 .
    Para facilitar a sua vida, utilize nosso formulário para solicitar servi√ßos de consertos.
    Importante: O formulário do Servi√ßo de Consertos está disponível apenas para as solicita√ßões dereparos em telefones com defeitos. Para outras solicita√ßões visite asáreas responsáveis aqui mesmo no site da Telef√¥nica.
    http://www.telefonica.com.br/rededeatendimento/central_atendimento. htm
    http://www.telefonica.com.br/rededeatendimento/central_atendimento_ formulario.htm
    Denise39202,8306828704

  • #10115

    zhongaa
    Member

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