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  • #114226

    chager83
    Member

    Hi guys,
    I’ve been made redundant last week in my job in England and after checking several possibilities, I’ve decided to move to SP and job-hunting. I’m a recent graduate (summer 2008) and the job-market here is completely messed up, so it’s time to leave Europe!
    My concern is how much the financial crisis has hit Brazil. As far as I have read and been told, the economy is slowing down, but it’s not a massive meltdown like Europe, North-America, Japan or China actually are.
    I have sent a few CVs by email this week and I have received two replies, but after clearing up that I was not yet in SP, but still in London (I had specified that in my Cover Letter, so I wonder why they asked me that again?), I haven’t received a 2nd reply. Is that the Brazilian-way? It was really unpolite Confused
    Otherwise, I checked I can get a 90-day tourist visa since I hold an UE passport. Just in case I get a job, is it easy to get a work-visa? Should I move back to Europe to swap for a work-visa or may I go to another country (let’s say Argentina or Uruguay; it’s closer and cheaper). (When my American or European friends in China had swapped their tourist visas for work visas, they just needed to leave the country (that means, a trip to Hong Kong)), so they didn’t need to do all the way back to Europe or America.
    I’m native in (European) Portuguese since I had some ancestors from there (but I don’t hold a Portuguese passport anyway), though I hardly never use it (shame on me). That’s why I’m not perfectly fluent at all, but I can read 100% and understand 90% (I have watched several Brazilian movies this month to refresh it, and it was OK; I could understand almost everything, except some slang in Cidade de Deus LOL). I guess that’s definitely a major advantage trying to get a job and living there, and my definitive point when thinking about moving to SP.
    Do you think there is any choice to get a (Brazilian) job with an almost-native Portuguese in SP in the architecture industry today?
    Thanks in advance,

  • #114229

    Benthecabbie
    Member

    My advice and probably everyone else will be to get a Multi national company in the U.K. or Europe to give you a job based here in Brazil as it is very very hard to get a job here if your just arriving. Good Luck New boy. P.S. i am recruiting for Portugal if your interested, but need sales background, check out my thread summer sales job in Portugal here.

  • #114239

    chager83
    Member

    Thx.
    The issue with getting an expat job is that u have to be in a senior position… I don’t have much experience (1.5-2 years), and I can’t get more experience in Europe (since here the economy here is completely doomed). It’s hilarious but almost every single graduate I know is in the same position!
    For instance, I had a few friends who moved to China (and they didn’t speak a word of Chinese) and got jobs there when the economy was booming, but they warned me that recruiting had stopped after autumn (the Chinese economy is doing really bad because of the lack of exportations).
    I thought Brazil was doing pretty well, at least compared with the rest of the world. I’m not asking for an European salary. According to some BR friends I could get RS$ 2000 with my background, which is damn low by European standards, but I just want to make a living, getting a new experience for 1-2 years, enhance my CV and go back to Europe or America when things are going better.
    Why is getting a job when arriving “very very hard”?
    I thought speaking the language (besides I’m also native in Spanish which must be good since Brazil is surrounded by Spanish-speaking countries and fluent in English and French) and have been educated / worked in Europe would be a definitive plus.

  • #114241

    Steven
    Participant

    Things are slowing down here in Brazil, including in the building industry. Up until recently the construction industry was booming in the São Paulo area but things have slowed and projects are being delayed. However, there are still a very large number of projects on the drawing board.

    You mentioned that you are looking for a job in the “architecture industry”. I’m not sure if that means that you are an architect or a CAD operator or what. If you are a talented architect who is quasi-fluent in Portuguese you should be able to find a job here somewhere.

    However, keep in mind that Brazil has some top-notch schools and has a very good stock of talented engineers and architects that you will be competing against.

    Also – you mention coming here on a tourist visa in order to look for a job and then, afterward, apply for a permanent visa or a work visa. To me, this issue is a show-stopper. Why would an employer consider hiring a foreigner without the proper documents? Unless you are a superstar in your field and can demonstrate huge success stories they probably won’t even talk to you. And I doubt that you can show very many achievements with only 1.5-2 years of experience.

    But what do you have to lose? Hop on an airplane and come on over. See what you can find. Perhaps your combination of Spanish, English, and Portuguese will be a big plus here. FYI – there is a lot of Argentine money floating around Brazil because the economy is so unstable there. You might bump into an Argentine project manager here in Brazil who values your tri-lingual abilities.

  • #114243

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=Kowloon] … and have been educated / worked in Europe would be a definitive plus. [/QUOTE] Actually this is of very little help and could actually be a minus as a professional as your foreign degree, un-validated, is almost useless.
    Best Luck!!!
    But there is hope if you are willing to live on R$2000 a month in São Paulo …
    DUNGA2009-02-18 15:38:16

  • #114246

    gatinha
    Member

    Also FYI, if you are able to get a portuguese passport, you will be much better off in getting into Brazil, the countries have special agreements.

  • #114249

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando]Also FYI, if you are able to get a portuguese passport, you will be much better off in getting into Brazil, the countries have special agreements. [/QUOTE] Yes – but just don’t let anyone think that you are Portuguese once you get here or you will never get a job. There is a love-hate relationship between Brazilians and Portuguese. Actually it’s more of a hate-hate relationship.

  • #114251

    chager83
    Member

    [QUOTE=Steven]

    Things are slowing down here in Brazil, including in the building industry. Up until recently the construction industry was booming in the São Paulo area but things have slowed and projects are being delayed. However, there are still a very large number of projects on the drawing board.

    You mentioned that you are looking for a job in the “architecture industry”. I’m not sure if that means that you are an architect or a CAD operator or what. If you are a talented architect who is quasi-fluent in Portuguese you should be able to find a job here somewhere.

    However, keep in mind that Brazil has some top-notch schools and has a very good stock of talented engineers and architects that you will be competing against.

    Also – you mention coming here on a tourist visa in order to look for a job and then, afterward, apply for a permanent visa or a work visa. To me, this issue is a show-stopper. Why would an employer consider hiring a foreigner without the proper documents? Unless you are a superstar in your field and can demonstrate huge success stories they probably won’t even talk to you. And I doubt that you can show very many achievements with only 1.5-2 years of experience.

    But what do you have to lose? Hop on an airplane and come on over. See what you can find. Perhaps your combination of Spanish, English, and Portuguese will be a big plus here. FYI – there is a lot of Argentine money floating around Brazil because the economy is so unstable there. You might bump into an Argentine project manager here in Brazil who values your tri-lingual abilities.

    [/QUOTE]
    Hi,
    Thx for your comments, really appreciated. I’m an architect. I know Brasil has good schools, good architects and very good practices… which is pretty cool, many interesting architecture down there! (and not just sh*tty speculative things like in Dubai, for instance).
    It’s good to hear that even if things are slowing down these days, there is still some hope. In London (and the rest of Europe and NA) everything (after New Year’s, absolutely everything) is being cancelled or put indefinitely on hold. And the biggest of the recession is yet to come to the architecture industry, because building processes are quite long in time and there are many projects still in construction. In a few months time, with no new projects, it will be the real disaster. Some prospects say that around 60 to 70% of jobs in architecture will be lost in the UK. And now changing career is suicidal, because workers in any industry are facing redundancy.
    I have nothing to lose. I just wanted some encouraging words. I have friends who finished in summer, with very good grades from very well-known London schools of architecture and it has been absolutely impossible to them to get a job, and as you can imagine they are absolutely demoralized 8 months later. And they have applied absolutely everywhere in Europe for any salary. And to be serious, their CVs are at the top of the top… worldwide.
    As for the visa, I don’t know the policy of Brazilian enterprises. But I had many colleagues from everywhere in my job whom they got a work visa after doing an interview. And I reckon (at least I hope) the UK (or any EU country) is much more restrictive when giving work visas to developing countries than Brazil does with European countries.

  • #114253

    chager83
    Member

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando]Also FYI, if you are able to get a portuguese passport, you will be much better off in getting into Brazil, the countries have special agreements.[/QUOTE]
    I hold a Spanish passport, which is pretty bad now. Customs have refused the entrance to many Brazilians lately in Spain (including some academics Confused); and I have heard that now Brazilian custom officers really like to piss off anyone with a Spanish passport (I think they do the same with American-passport holders, btw) LOL
    Most LatAm countries and Spain and Portugal usually have special agreements. For instance (at least things have changed lately), Brazilians (and nationals from any other Spanish-speaking country, the Philippines and Portugal) can get a Spanish passport with only 2 years of residence in Spain, while it’s 5 for an European and 10 for a non-European or non-Latin American.

  • #114271

    gatinha
    Member

    Ah ok, but from what I remember, its easiest to get into brazil on a portuguese passport and you can very quickly become a citizen.
    I feel very fortunate to have the job I do in Denmark! I work with the information (specifically pharmaceutics) industry and we haven’t felt a thing!
    Denmark is one of the least affected countries in Europe I would say, there are job losses etc but the country has so much surpluss that its keeping things and programs aflout. I feel very fortunate as an American to be living in Denmark and having it pretty easy! (just bought a house, wife is studying at no cost to us etc).
    Best of luck to you!

  • #114424

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Hi Kowloon, It is nice to see some encouragement on these pages, but the sad truth is that it is very, very difficult for a non-brazilian to secure a viable position here, unless he or she is brought in by a multinational. Even then the process is not easy. If you are not all of the following – fluent in Portuguese, understand Brazilian culture, have a validated degree or other qualification, and a solid job guarantee before you arrive, my sincere advice is to think about somewhere else. Brazilian companies do not hire foreigners unless they have qualifications or skills that are not available in Brazil. The larger companies are extremely structured and professional, and employ seriously qualified local people in the well-paid positions In my opinion, if you want to live and work in São Paulo / Rio or any of the larger cities, you need to clear R$6000-8000 monthly, minimum, to maintain a similar lifestyle to that which you are used to. Don’t make the mistake that so many have made, in thinking because they are European or North American trained, that they are better qualified than the locals. Even if their thinking is correct in some cases, it is still difficult, unless you are immersed in Brazilian culture to convince employers that they should employ you, instead of a local, because if the cultural differences. Imagine a recently-qualified Chilean with basic English and no German applying for a job at say, BMW in Germany. That would be approximately your situation. If you do manage to secure a job, you will immediately notice that the work culture is very different, and may have difficulties in relating to your co-workers and unscrambling office politics. Many hopefuls have ended up scraping by, teaching English, their professional qualifications and experience going to waste, while they hope and wait for a job. These pages are full of them. Sorry to seem so negative, but that is the reality. Having said that, I know a few individuals who have secured lucrative contract jobs in niche areas, and are doing well. Think long and hard before you come to Brazil to look for a job in your field. It is guaranteed it will not be easy, and the chances are very good that you will be disappointed. Or, if you just want the experience of living here, getting by and enjoying the country, and have some other means of maintaining yourself for a while, go ahead, and the very best of luck to you!

  • #114432

    ClaudePeebles
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Slimseun] if you want to live and work in São Paulo / Rio or any of the larger cities, you need to clear R$6000-8000 monthly, minimum, to maintain a similar lifestyle to that which you are used to. [/QUOTE]

    Depends entirely upon the lifestyle you were used to.

    Our rent alone is considerably more than your suggested R$8,000 monthly minimum salary and we had a better lifestyle prior to moving to Brazil, not that I’m complaining about what we have here though.

  • #114445

    brentmo
    Member

    Hi Kowlon,

    Don’t be disappointed with the lack of reply from the companies you have applied for a job. As a Brazilian myself living in the UKwith an indefinite visa – my husband is English) and searching for a job since January/2008, I think the same of the companies I have applied for a job (around 200 if not more) I barely had reply from them. Impoliteness too?

    I worked for a company in Brazilin the end of the 70’s until middle 80’s in the recruitment and personnel department and we did not have the habit/time to send letters or replies to all applicants. At the time, we did not have today’s facilities such as internet.

    If you really want to stay and live in Brazil, keep trying. If you are young and have no family ties, you have more time. Soon you will get used to the language, don’t worry about slang, they vary depending on the part of the country you are in. Try the formal way to learn and although reading and listening is far easier than speak, you will get there.

    My husband is considering making a move, he is also being made redundant after over 29 years in the same very well known company. I have family and lots of friends in Brazilwhich could be a good start for us. After 7 years living in the UK, the only nice thing I found here was my lovely husband who I love to bits.

    Good luck and if you need to “talk” let me know.

  • #114446

    tomasito
    Member

    …. but the good news for you may be that Sao Paulo is extremely architecturally challenged. I wish you the best of success, especially if you can eventually arrive here and help our city begin to look impressive and pretty!

  • #114450

    8000 reals a month is way above most Brasilians budgets, and above the average wage for those working in Britain.
    I dont know if you plan to live in a palace or such, but you can buy a decent 3/4 bedroom property outright in Sao Paulo, and even larger outside of the city for under 120,000 pounds (360,000reals).
    I visited one of my wifes friend who lives in 8 bedroom property outside of Sao Paulo which is a part of a community protected by security and fences and it was the same price as my 3 bedroom semi!
    Its all about what your expectations are and if you want to live in somewhere secure.

  • #114451

    One post replied to me yesterday in another thread said that it is the quality not quantity of life that’s important in Brasil.

  • #114460

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=garyapsledene]One post replied to me yesterday in another thread said that it is the quality not quantity of life that‚Äôs important in Brasil.[/QUOTE] If they said that the quality of life in Brazil is good then they don’t live in São Paulo.

  • #114464

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Terry,
    Of course it does depend on the lifestyle you are used to – Kowloon is a recently graduated architect. I obviously don’t know for sure, but I doubt very much that his lifestyle is that of the super-rich, as yours seems to be.
    Honestly, do you think that anyone (apart from the top echelon of employees of multinationals, who have accommodation and much more included in their package) should or would pay “significantly more than R$8000” just for rent? A clear R$8000 is considered to be a good salary in Brazil, particularly for a recent graduate.
    A wild guess – no more than 1% of the population have R$8000 on the bottom line of their “holerite”.
    I am sure someone will do the legwork and correct me if I am wrong.

  • #114465

    Steven
    Participant

    I have guys working for me who earn R$8000 per month. They really cannot afford to live in São Paulo but live ok in the ABC suburbs. OK but modestly. However, perhaps a young bachelor who didn’t need much could squeeze by on R$2000 if he found someone to share a small apartment. I doubt it though.

  • #114466

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Steven,
    When you say they earn R$8000/month, is that net? Or are you including their personal income tax and the “encargos sociais”? Because if it is net, they are costing you roughly R$13,000 if everything is done by the book. Just curious, because there can be ambiguity here when talking about salaries.
    I agree it would be difficult to survive on R$2000 in SP.

  • #114467

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]Steven,

    When you say they earn R$8000/month, is that net? Or are you including their personal income tax and the “encargos sociais”? Because if it is net, they are costing you roughly R$13,000 if everything is done by the book. Just curious, because there can be ambiguity here when talking about salaries.

    I agree it would be difficult to survive on R$2000 in SP. [/QUOTE] No – R$8000 is their gross salary. These are senior engineers who have been with the Company for 5-10 years. They are single-income married and live in a modest apartment with perhaps a Palio that they share with their wife. Again – in the ABC region. When the wife works they can afford two small Palios. And we pay pretty good too. However – R$2000 in São Paulo – even if it’s net? I think it would be a pretty spartan lifestyle. Most people in this salary range (and we have many) still live with their parents or they have another larger income in the house.

  • #114469

    Slimseun
    Participant

    So they are looking at around R$4600 net. No doubt you would agree,as an employer, Steven, that R$8000 NET would be a very good salary for a young person, recently qualified and starting out in their profession, living in SP, which includes ABC and even Santos?
    As you say, people earning around R$2000 and surviving are probably living in their parent’s home and have a larger income in the family.

  • #114471

    Steven
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]So they are looking at around R$4600 net. No doubt you would agree,as an employer, Steven, that R$8000 NET would be a very good salary for a young person, recently qualified and starting out in their profession, living in SP, which includes ABC and even Santos?

    [/QUOTE] Actually R$8000 gross will yield about R$6000 net. Anyone who is a recent graduate and is earning R$8000 net must be working for their father.

  • #114472

    brentmo
    Member

    Lots of people may think that because they were born in the “1st world” they are the best and the “3rd world” should be grateful for having them. They are wrong. There are brilliant people, full of creativity and when they are given the opportunity, they really shine. Unfortunatelly, the government does not care for people who need an opportunity. They are better manipulated if they have no education. If you are in Brazil you can see children who should be at school, joggling in the streets in front of the cars, begging for “trocados” (spare change). This is ridiculous in the 21st century. This is a shame for on the government and I felt very embarrassed when I first took my husband to Brazil. He had never seen that before. Those who earn R$ 8.000,00 (eight thousand Reais) a month have a very good salary, better still if they don’t have a family to support. What kind of job do this professionals do? I believe that many people may earn this or even more. I know people who do and they can afford going on holidays at least twice a year and keeping their children in private schools. Good for them.

  • #114474

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Steven – Haha right on, they would be working for their father!
    Roshar – You are so right, I have worked with so many brilliant, talented and well-qualified people here. But these are the lucky ones, who have had the opportunity.
    Unfortunately not all of them are well paid.
    There are 2 other things I want to mention in this thread –
    It seems to me that outward appearance is important to many people – I know some middle- Class (B or C)families who have a super new car, but every cent for household consumption (food, etc) is accounted for – no extras. basically they suffer in other areas just to have a nice car, which they don’t need. I know this is not only in Brazil, but I see it a lot.
    The other thing is – r$ or R$, which is correct?

  • #114476

    brentmo
    Member

    Slimseun, the correct way is R$ (R stands for Real (singular) or Reais (plural) You are right about the cars. Appearance is very important for many people who think that having a nice shinny car is better than having a cosy house to make it a home for themselves and family.

  • #114479

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Roshar, thanks for that. Don’t know where I got the idea that Reais should not be capitalised.

  • #114487

    gatinha
    Member

    So bottom line is that you need a decent chunck of change to live in SP!!!
    Try the N.E. and you could scrape by on 2,000 a month with a small family ;)
    I remember that in the smaller cities within Brazil that a man would be able to support his family from 1,500 a month but would hope for 2,500 or if educated 3,500 was a decent salary.
    I lived off of about 300-500 reais a month living in Maringa (in shared accomidations) and obviously didn’t live extravagent but survived ok ;)…ok it was pretty much bare basics!

  • #114499

    Gringo go go
    Participant

    [QUOTE=frank4000]

    this is excluding places like JP?

    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks Frank, I was thinking the same. Consider school (cheapest private school is R$125 a month then there are the books, clothes etc) and health plan (even with Paraiba Paradises 30% discount)
    plus approx R$179 for the Cesta Basica there still travel costs and happy money. Not forgetting rent and condo and bills R$2000 might be a bit of a stretch.

  • #114503

    gatinha
    Member

    R2000 a month considering that your healthcare was taken care of by your employer and your children were in public schools (or cheapter private ones but not living in the bigger cities). And you owned your average sized house outright. LOL
    Any larger city will be of course more expensive to live in ;)
    I had some friends who were a family of 3 and their child was in private school and wife was studying in the local private university, they made it by on 1,500-2,000 a month (living simple of course).
    ToVoltando2009-02-24 03:49:32

  • #114513

    waynec
    Member

    What was the population of the city they were living in? I’m trying to fathom living on R$2000 a month in Salvador with a “small family” and having a lifestyle that a gringo could deal with.

  • #114516

    gatinha
    Member

    The population was about 100,000 (Maringá Paraná) and they lived in a small house in the outskirts of the city. I don’t think it was quite the kind of lifestyle a gringo could deal with unless they were willing to live almost just like a middle/low class Brazilian.

  • #114520

    lmaonade5
    Member

    [QUOTE=AkuTyger] I’m trying to fathom living on R$2000 a month in Salvador with a “small family” and having a lifestyle that a gringo could deal with. [/QUOTE] Well, for a Brazilian example, one guy I know in Salvador works at the front desk of a small hotel (and does occasional airport runs to make a bit extra). His wife is a teacher. They have a new car that they pay on monthly and an apartment in a reasonably safe neighborhood. They have one young kid in private school. They make R$2300 total (w/out the irregular airport extras).

  • #114570

    chager83
    Member

    [QUOTE=Roshar]

    Hi Kowlon,

    Don’t be disappointed with the lack of reply from the companies you have applied for a job. As a Brazilian myself living in the UKwith an indefinite visa – my husband is English) and searching for a job since January/2008, I think the same of the companies I have applied for a job (around 200 if not more) I barely had reply from them. Impoliteness too?

    I worked for a company in Brazilin the end of the 70’s until middle 80’s in the recruitment and personnel department and we did not have the habit/time to send letters or replies to all applicants. At the time, we did not have today’s facilities such as internet.

    If you really want to stay and live in Brazil, keep trying. If you are young and have no family ties, you have more time. Soon you will get used to the language, don’t worry about slang, they vary depending on the part of the country you are in. Try the formal way to learn and although reading and listening is far easier than speak, you will get there.

    My husband is considering making a move, he is also being made redundant after over 29 years in the same very well known company. I have family and lots of friends in Brazilwhich could be a good start for us. After 7 years living in the UK, the only nice thing I found here was my lovely husband who I love to bits.

    Good luck and if you need to “talk” let me know.

    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks for your reply. Yes, things in the UK and Europe are really scary. I just cross fingers we won’t have a “corralito” or hyperinflation situation, like in Argentina in 2000s or Brazil in the 80s.
    I just wanted some opinions from people living in Brazil, because asking some friends who live there (or Brazilians here), they told me that things were not going very well either (you know, typical negative Latin American or Southern European mentality, the grass is always greener on the other side). But they don’t really realise how bad things are going here in the “1st world”. And when u say many ppl that u plan to move there, they think u’r crazy. Fortunately some more-travelled and better-informed friends have also realised that the future is not here, and they encourage me to do that (even my family does).
    I have received more replies from Brazil. The replies have been quite positive but there’s the issue of being 6000 miles away from there. I’m sure it would be possible to get something being there :)
    Good luck in the UK or in Brazil!
    Kowloon2009-02-25 10:40:47

  • #114581

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Hi Kowloon,
    Don’t be discouraged or insulted by my and other posts, that was not the intention. I was just trying to show you the reality. Come over and see for yourself. I think the collective reasoning brought the monthly requirement down to about R$3000 (1000 Euro)for a single person with a middle class lifestyle in São Paulo. Who knows, maybe you could do it for less.
    I can assure you, though, that on my original estimate of R$8000, you would not be driving a Range Rover, or living in an expat compound. And I agree there is nothing wrong with driving a Palio.
    Your big advantage is that you speak portuguese. But you are still a foreigner, and would have to go through the process of getting a permanent visa (not easy) and then a job (just as difficult).
    Would you like people to say yes, no problem, lots of jobs for gringoes here, come on over, it’s really cheap too? Now that would be an insult.
    You were smart to edit your post, Kowloon. People here are trying to help you.

  • #114582

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Kowloon, here’s some more help: There are only a few ways of getting a permanent visa. I will list the ones that may work for you. Any ONE of these will do it.
    1.) Marry a Brazilian national (stable relationship)
    2.) Be the biological father or mother of a child born in Brazil
    3.) Start a Brazilian Company with an investment of $200,000. You have to have one Brazilian partner.
    4.) Be posted by a multinational,to work as manager, director, or executive. The job has to be one which a local cannot fill, for whatever reason.
    5.) Work as manager or director of an NGO.
    6.) Be a person of extraordinary ability in the sciences, technological, research, or academic fields, with a job offer at a Brazilian research, scientific, or academic organization.
    You could also try for a temporary visa (VITEM V) look here http://www.brazilhouston.org/ingles/visas.htm or at any Brazilian consulate website
    This was the situation last time I looked, about 2 years ago. The number for 3.) may have changed up by now.
    These are only the stipulations. Then you have to start jumping through the hoops. Does this give you an idea?
    Slimseun2009-02-25 13:42:13

  • #114593

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Frank4000, There is one more option which I did not list as it did not apply to Kowloon:
    Settle in Brazil as a retiree. You don`t actually have to retire, the requirements are that you have to be over 50 and have a proven income of $2000/month, which has to be deposited in a Brazilian bank.

  • #114606

    Already done number 1!

  • #114610

    gatinha
    Member

    Number 2 is definately how we will get in! No other options besides that especially since the investment rule has been raised to 200,000reais and you may no longer purchase property for your investment (and it’s only 3 years instead of 5).

  • #114625

    irishvan
    Member

    In the long run #3 is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than #1…Smile

  • #114630

    sven van ‘t Veer
    Participant

    [QUOTE=MovingSoon]In the long run #3 is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper than #1…Smile[/QUOTE]
    LOL
    Just get the kid to work for O Globo’s “Malhação” and the kid might show a higher profit Wink

  • #114640

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=garyapsledene]8000 reals a month is way above most Brasilians budgets, and above the average wage for those working in Britain.

    I dont know if you plan to live in a palace or such, but you can buy a decent 3/4 bedroom property outright in Sao Paulo, and even larger outside of the city for under 120,000 pounds (360,000reals).

    I visited one of my wifes friend who lives in 8 bedroom property outside of Sao Paulo which is a part of a community protected by security and fences and it was the same price as my 3 bedroom semi!

    Its all about what your expectations are and if you want to live in somewhere secure.[/QUOTE] 8000 Reais is at 3.35 (today’s exchange rate) ¬£28,600 approx. This is marginally above the average wage in the UK for full time employment (¬£26,000 approx according to the Office for National Statistics). It is admittedly way above the average or indeed most Brazilians budgets which illustrates the grinding poverty of the majority of the population and how hard it is for the vast majority to have a decent lifestyle. Property in SP is expensive. Don’t be deceived by people comparing apples with pears. Houses in the UK way out of conurbations are relatively cheap. Compare good solid middle class neighbourhoods close to well paid areas of work e.g. Itaim Bibi or Brooklyn in SP and for ¬£120,000 you’re looking at a tiny 1 bedroom flat, if you’re lucky. The rest of the cost of living far exceeds European or US costs, with virtually nothing in return for taxes such as good usable healthcare or schools. The problem with the Brazilian system to foreigners is that it is a closed shop. Good quality employees are prevented by law and then custom from getting good well paid jobs. Presently the economy will prevent opportunities. Be very careful about coming to Brazil without a job, and keep hopes to a minimum.

  • #114822

    ecenur
    Member

    [QUOTE=Juninho][QUOTE=garyapsledene]8000 reals a month is way above most Brasilians budgets, and above the average wage for those working in Britain.
    I dont know if you plan to live in a palace or such, but you can buy a decent 3/4 bedroom property outright in Sao Paulo, and even larger outside of the city for under 120,000 pounds (360,000reals).
    I visited one of my wifes friend who lives in 8 bedroom property outside of Sao Paulo which is a part of a community protected by security and fences and it was the same price as my 3 bedroom semi!
    Its all about what your expectations are and if you want to live in somewhere secure.[/QUOTE]

    8000 Reais is at 3.35 (today’s exchange rate) ¬£28,600 approx. This is marginally above the average wage in the UK for full time employment (¬£26,000 approx according to the Office for National Statistics). It is admittedly way above the average or indeed most Brazilians budgets which illustrates the grinding poverty of the majority of the population and how hard it is for the vast majority to have a decent lifestyle.
    Property in SP is expensive. Don’t be deceived by people comparing apples with pears. Houses in the UK way out of conurbations are relatively cheap. Compare good solid middle class neighbourhoods close to well paid areas of work e.g. Itaim Bibi or Brooklyn in SP and for ¬£120,000 you’re looking at a tiny 1 bedroom flat, if you’re lucky. The rest of the cost of living far exceeds European or US costs, with virtually nothing in return for taxes such as good usable healthcare or schools.
    The problem with the Brazilian system to foreigners is that it is a closed shop. Good quality employees are prevented by law and then custom from getting good well paid jobs. Presently the economy will prevent opportunities. Be very careful about coming to Brazil without a job, and keep hopes to a minimum.

    [/QUOTE]
    ConfusedI think you sum it up pretty well as so often JuninhoConfusedkeep hopes low, very low indeed and you won’t be disappointed…!!!

  • #115002

    chager83
    Member

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]Hi Kowloon,
    Don’t be discouraged or insulted by my and other posts, that was not the intention. I was just trying to show you the reality. Come over and see for yourself. I think the collective reasoning brought the monthly requirement down to about R$3000 (1000 Euro)for a single person with a middle class lifestyle in São Paulo. Who knows, maybe you could do it for less.
    I can assure you, though, that on my original estimate of R$8000, you would not be driving a Range Rover, or living in an expat compound. And I agree there is nothing wrong with driving a Palio.
    Your big advantage is that you speak portuguese. But you are still a foreigner, and would have to go through the process of getting a permanent visa (not easy) and then a job (just as difficult).
    Would you like people to say yes, no problem, lots of jobs for gringoes here, come on over, it’s really cheap too? Now that would be an insult.
    You were smart to edit your post, Kowloon. People here are trying to help you.
    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks for the reply.
    My concern was about the way this thread was going. Someone says RS$8000 is a minimum standard, in the next reply someone else writes “my rent is far more expensive than RS$ 8000”, etc.. I felt that discussion was going to nowhere. Maybe a Qatari sheikh could write here that 8000 reais is what he spends every time he washes his golden Bugatti Veyron and he can’t think about living with less, so that was not the point at all!
    Kowloon2009-03-04 05:37:38

  • #115003

    chager83
    Member

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]Kowloon, here’s some more help: There are only a few ways of getting a permanent visa. I will list the ones that may work for you. Any ONE of these will do it.
    1.) Marry a Brazilian national (stable relationship)
    2.) Be the biological father or mother of a child born in Brazil
    3.) Start a Brazilian Company with an investment of $200,000. You have to have one Brazilian partner.
    4.) Be posted by a multinational,to work as manager, director, or executive. The job has to be one which a local cannot fill, for whatever reason.
    5.) Work as manager or director of an NGO.
    6.) Be a person of extraordinary ability in the sciences, technological, research, or academic fields, with a job offer at a Brazilian research, scientific, or academic organization.
    You could also try for a temporary visa (VITEM V) look here http://www.brazilhouston.org/ingles/visas.htm or at any Brazilian consulate website
    This was the situation last time I looked, about 2 years ago. The number for 3.) may have changed up by now.
    These are only the stipulations. Then you have to start jumping through the hoops. Does this give you an idea?
    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks again for the reply. I am obviously looking for a temporary visa.
    Getting a Permanent Visa when u first arrive is almost impossible anywhere in the US or EU, so I wonder why it should be easier in Brazil. I never asked for a permanent visa, just a work visa as any foreigner has when they move to the US or Europe.
    I think that would be suitable for me or any other expat looking to work in BR:

    • Work under a Brazilian-ruled employment contract.

  • #115014

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=Kowloon]

    • Work under a Brazilian-ruled employment contract.

    [/QUOTE]
    Remember that unless you are expatted by your company that this is a hard way to get in.

  • #115015

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=Kowloon]
    Maybe a Qatari sheikh could write here that 8000 reais is what he spends every time he washes his golden Bugatti Veyron and he can’t think about living with less, so that was not the point at all!
    [/QUOTE]
    LOL

  • #115043

    Milenko
    Participant

    We have already had discusion about 8000 RS salary in other topic (job with british embassy). We reached a conclusion that this is very good salary whether be it gross or net salary. Problem is finding the company who is willing to pay that much, if such one even exist. Getting work visa is difficult usually for special set of skills and job market in Brazil is very competitive, where alot of skilled people are unemployed. Therefore your best bet is to try find job through contacts. Start making friends etc.

  • #115044

    Milenko
    Participant

    Hmm you are an architect. Maybe that’s a good news. I heard about one italian who is architect and managed to get a Visa for contract work in Natal I think. I don’t know him in person I only know he was a former boyfriend of my now also former girlfriend .. Embarrassed.
    Maybe it’s good thing you’re an architect, suppose you don’t need much work experience. If you managed to pass the entry exams (vestibular) for university, than I guess you must be gifted. Only skilled people get to study architecture.
    ptic2009-03-04 12:47:03

  • #115411

    mastercoop
    Member

    Tells you all you need to know about the Brazil job market doesn’t it?

  • #115923

    mastercoop
    Member

    The sad thing is that R$8,000 gross is hardly big money. It’s OK if you’re single, but if you’re from the West and trying to raise a family on it as a breadwinner, you’ll be tighter than a drum.

  • #116012

    mastercoop
    Member

    IFyou don’t own a home outright (i.e. either rent or pay a sizeable mortgage) and don’t plan working till you drop (and thus need to save) AND you have a family with kids you like enough to provide a decent education (good enough to give them a fighting chance of applying for a foreign uni UK or USA for example) and want to visit the family back home once a year with the family, then IF you’re also the breadwinner, you’re looking at a figure in the region of GROSS RS$15,000 absolute minimum. The reality is that the cost of living is higher in Brazil than the UK, and the schools need to be international and thus private on the criteria given. Of course if you vary the criteria, then you vary the minimum needed (which really would be better RS$20,000 and above), but then you will have a material adverse impact on your and your family’s quality of life. And yes I am fully aware of how few people earn this, and consequently how few westeners there are in Brazil.

  • #116085

    Anonymous

    @Juninho: No compromise in your life I guess.
    Does His Highness have a personal bottom wiper as well?
    Even in Sao Paulo you can get by fine with R$3000 a month even with a family.
    Just as long as you accept a fairly basic life.
    You can rent a house in a ok neighborhood for R$5-600 a month.
    With R$8000 a month you will be very well off.
    No fancy private schools, servants, cool car or 5 bedroom apt, but still a very good life.
    EDIT: I guess it all depends on what lifestyle you had going into Brazil and what you are willing to settle with.
    Twirly2009-03-18 16:15:10

  • #116100

    Wow! I keep seeing these numbers that seem really high…then I remember I just turned 23 with no student loans, no kids and not really that much to spend money on.
    I would recommend against the second option for getting a permanent visa. Don’t have a kid until you can afford one. Raising a kid is expensive in Brazil.
    In Rio, you could get by comfortably with about R$4-5000. Used car, mortage on a nice 3bedroom apt in the Zona West (Recreio for example) that you start paying a few months before the thing is even built, etc.
    My husband and I get by on that and are happy. We are both recent college graduates working and trying to further our education at the same time. I know how to cook and I know which supermarkets sell which items at the lowest price and I have the patience to go between them. Costs for a single guy could be higher, especially if you like to go our for expensive drinks and either eat out and get your clothes washed at the lavandaria or pay a maid to come and do these things every single day. So, maybe number 1 would be wise if you find a woman who is not a patrocinha and knows how to pechinchar..
    I think on R$4000-5000 right out of college you may be able to have a slightly better quality of living than in the US. No idea about the UK. The cost will be higher if you want to live in Rio’s Zona Sul or in much of Sao Paulo. Long term, I’d say you need at least R$8000 and you better work on saving to pay your house or apartment off before any kiddies come. Tuition is expensive and the public schools here (in Rio at least) are a bit of a joke.
    You can try coming down here as someone with weak portuguese (don’t assume Portuguese from Portugal and from Brazil are the same…people will notice the difference), few connections and little experience and try to hunt down a job that pays that, but don’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen right away.
    Goodluck!

  • #116209

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=Twirly] @Juninho: No compromise in your life I guess.
    Does His Highness have a personal bottom wiper as well?

    Even in Sao Paulo you can get by fine with R$3000 a month even with a family.
    Just as long as you accept a fairly basic life.
    You can rent a house in a ok neighborhood for R$5-600 a month.

    With R$8000 a month you will be very well off.
    No fancy private schools, servants, cool car or 5 bedroom apt, but still a very good life.

    EDIT: I guess it all depends on what lifestyle you had going into Brazil and what you are willing to settle with.
    [/QUOTE] For the record I went to a state school in the UK as do my kids when in the UK. I don’t think its fair to subject them to the state sector in Brazil (even to prove a political point). The only servant I or my family has is a cleaner once a week for 5 hours. We have 1 car – a people carrier. (For the record I have never owned a new car). In Brazil a 150 square meter 3 bed apartment in a decent neighbourhood of SP is now the best part of R$500,000. I cannot imagine what type of family home you have in mind for R$500 a month, nor the neighbourhood/favela it must be in. As you say, it all depends on what you’re willing to settle with. Squalor, grinding poverty and despair are admittedly less than I am willing to settle with and I also don’t think it would be fair to impose this on my family.

  • #116444

    Anonymous

    @Juninho: A 2-3 bedroom house in Saude, Jabaquara or Santa Cruz will set you back R$500 to 1500 a month in rent. I have been offered a 2 bedroom apt in Jabaquara. R$800 a month incl. cond. and IPTU. The only problem is that is like living on the runway of the Congonhas Airport :-( It has a very good gym + pool +++ though. To buy it costs R$120k, cond+IPTU is 250 a month. I have also been offered a 2 bedroom house in Saude which cost’s R$550 incl. IPTU a month. And none of these 2 are close to anything that can be considered a favela. 150 square meters is for gringos only. I am happy with 60 square meters and so is my wife. Our baby daughter has no saying in this yet ;-) I currently live with my wifes uncle, his wife, their daughter and my brother in law in a 38 square meter house. Wifey and baby will fly down here when I have my own crib. When in Rome….

  • #116459

    I think we’re a lot closer to agreeing than it may seem
    Twirly, you are saying $3000 for a couple with an infant child (no school bills yet), modest conditions and probably no big vacations/yearly trip home (since that will set you back around R$6000 or more for 2 people)…with the additional benefit of strong ties to Brazilian family and friends near by to help you find the best deals and to help with child care if need be? (That last one is a nice benefit that a lot of gringoes including the original poster don’t have).
    Can we come to a consent on these basic reference points for gringoes considering a long term or permanent move to Rio or Sao Paulo:
    around $3000= minimum for childless couple or couple with small child(ren) with ties to the community and possible family support to be comfortable
    $4000-$5000 = minimum for childless couple or couple with very small child(ren) to be comfortable by “gringo standards”
    $8000 – amount to truly be comfortable for a couple with school aged children by “gringo standards”
    *This assumes that every gringo, just like every Brazilian, wants to send their kids to private schools here.
    *It also assumes that everyone in these scenarios is paying rent or mortgage payments.
    “Gringo standards” here mean being able to go home once a year, own a used car, live in a nice neighborhood, have good private health insurance and a comparable level of comfort to that experienced in the home country (tv, internet, ac, eating out or going to movies, etc.) and not just by the Romans.
    I’m not denying that you won’t be able to get by with less, most Brazilians do. I think most of us could live on much less for a while, but I believe that most gringoes won’t be comfortable and happy living for a long period of time in Rio or Sao Paulo with less.

  • #116484

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=nikkij12185]
    $8000 – amount to truly be comfortable for a couple with school aged children by “gringo standards”
    [/QUOTE]
    So assuming you lived in a much smaller city (just outside of a bigger city in N.E. for example), payed cash for your house, cash for your car. This 8,000 amount could be really put under the knife! would 4,000 be unreasonable to say (assuming no rent, no car payment, much cheaper daycare, much cheaper healthcare, cheaper food etc)?

  • #116639

    Anonymous

    @frank4000: As of apt, no they don’t. According to the security guard they got 1-2 people everyday putting their names on the waiting list. I just got lucky as I know the owner of the apt. @nikkij12185: Agreed. I guess I am lucky since I have a family who will go trough hell and high water to help us/me out. @tovoltando: 4000 under those conditions will be plenty in my book. For reference, I have been a month in Sampa now and have only spent R$500. This is the benefit of having a helpful family I guess.

  • #116647

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=Twirly]@Juninho: A 2-3 bedroom house in Saude, Jabaquara or Santa Cruz will set you back R$500 to 1500 a month in rent. I have been offered a 2 bedroom apt in Jabaquara. R$800 a month incl. cond. and IPTU. The only problem is that is like living on the runway of the Congonhas Airport :-( It has a very good gym + pool +++ though. To buy it costs R$120k, cond+IPTU is 250 a month. I have also been offered a 2 bedroom house in Saude which cost’s R$550 incl. IPTU a month. And none of these 2 are close to anything that can be considered a favela. 150 square meters is for gringos only. I am happy with 60 square meters and so is my wife. Our baby daughter has no saying in this yet ;-) I currently live with my wifes uncle, his wife, their daughter and my brother in law in a 38 square meter house. Wifey and baby will fly down here when I have my own crib. When in Rome…. [/QUOTE] Apples and pears. the discussion is what a gringo with 2 kids needs, not what someone crashing with the in-laws with a baby needs. Lets be honest, 7 people sharing 38 square metres is less than anyone from the first world is used to and would be comfortable with. 60 square metres with 2 growing kids is also pretty tight, and just isn’t comparable to the west. the whole discussion is about what you need to maintain a comparable lifestyle. Also living miles from where the good jobs are consigns you to hours of traffic jams each day. Again, the quality of life isn’t comparable, nor is living under descending airoplanes. As for the small town idea quoted by others, they mentioned not having to pay rent or mortgage – lets compare like with like. Moreover employment opportunities in small towns are not good for gringoes, nor is the money available, and nor are the schools for gringoes. And no-one will have flights on R$4,000 a month for the family. Also no-one mentions the stratospheric cost of all goods in Brazil now, from clothes to electrics, from furniture to almost anything – 3-4 times the cost in the west.

  • #116653

    Anonymous

    @Juninho: I think I will never agree with hardly anything you say. To me it seems you take 3 bitter pills with coffee for every breakfast. Maybe you call your self a realist but I only see a spoiled and bitter man. I get the feeling I am quite a few years younger than you and I guess that makes me more flexible and willing to settle with less. Your suggestions to costs are just bull. If you pay 3-4 times more than in the west then you are beeing robbed. At least compared to where I am from. Not even cars which I find to be very expensive here are 3-4 times the cost.

  • #116693

    mastercoop
    Member

    Twirly You have got me wrong in almost all aspects. I’m 33, and I doubt you are THAT much younger than me. I went to State school as do my kids. I have never and will never own a new car. I travel economy and stay in reasonably priced hotels, I eat and live modestly and am generally an optimist, and am a happy person. No-one has ever called me spoilt. I worked hard all my life for everything I have – nothing in my life was handed to me on a plate. But I am also a realist. There are certain things I will not settle for, and I suspect many if not most forum members wouldn’t either. I feel it is relatively basic if living in Brazil thousands of miles from friends and family to be able to visit once a year with my family. I cannot deny my kids an education good enough to enable them to go to UK universities and have the opportunities I had. I cannot share a 38 square meter home with 7 people. If I need a job for money I cannot spend 2 hours in traffic each way every day going to and from that job. I want to be able to afford to buy a home, not rent my whole life. Where would I go otherwise when I retire and my income falls so I cannot afford to rent any longer? You need to be honest about the debate here. It is about what it costs in Brazil to have a lifestyle comparable to the one the same person previously was used to in the west. Not what is the bare minimum needed to eke out an existence in relative poverty.

  • #116710

    Anonymous

    We don’t live 7 people in the small house. But 4 adults and a baby. Wifey and baby are still up north. My situation right now is temporary until I have resolved everything here in Sampa. Everybody works up to 14 hours a day so the house is just a place to sleep. On the weekends we have the option to go to the country house. I take your points but have a different view on it. Granted Sampa is expensive as compared to other parts of Brazil but this is normal for any metropol around the world. A right comparison would be Oslo, London, New York, Tokyo +++ We simply settle for less here as compared to back in europe. And hopefully we will work our way up in the years to come :-) If not, it is not a problem as I am not a materialist. Oh, and we do not have a wish to go to europe every year. We are happy here.

  • #116717

    Anonymous

    Right on Frankie. And that is covered by our “Get out of Dodge fund”.

  • #116721

    I think whether going home once a year is a luxury or not depends on how close you are to your family outside of Brazil.
    If my husband and I didn’t go to the US once a year, I think it would break my poor mother’s heart. She starts planning our next trip before we even make it back to Brazil. My grandma and my aunt are just as bad.
    Phone calls and emails are nice, but nothing beats seeing in person how much bigger my niece has gotten or getting to binge on grandma cookies or attending a sporting event with my dad and uncle.
    Family is important to a lot of people. They want their kids to see where they come from and get to know their relatives. Especially, if they are among the many gringoes that have little or no Brazilian family…twirly, this is obviously not your case. For the original poster, a young single man considering moving here from Europe, it could be something he wants to consider.
    For a lot of people, visiting family is an emotional necessity. If it isn’t for you, then living in Brazil (or anywhere else that is far from home) will be all that much cheaper.

  • #116722

    @ ToVoltando
    If you don’t have to pay rent or a mortgage and you own your car outright, then your costs will be significantly lower.
    Living outside of the city has its ups and downs – everything food, clothing, etc. will probably cost you a little bit more. You may pay more or less on transportation, depending on where you work in relation to your home (is it a really small town where you work close by and your kids can walk to school, or do you have to drive them and yourself everywhere?).
    Schools may be cheaper, but you should be ready to take more of an active role in your kids education if you have hopes of them passing the vestibular or studying outside of Brazil because the quality could be a bit lower.
    If you find a job (or you and your wife find jobs) in a smaller town that give you an income of $4000 in the situation you described, I think you would be good, maybe even travel (although that might be a bit tight)
    1 ticket to the US= about R$2500. 4 tickets = R$10.000. If you stay with family outside of Brazil and don’t plan to spend much it’ll cost you about R$1000/month. Probably more leaving more remote areas of Brazil and traveling to more remote areas abroad.

  • #116739

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=Twirly]We don’t live 7 people in the small house.

    But 4 adults and a baby.
    Wifey and baby are still up north.
    My situation right now is temporary until I have resolved everything here in Sampa.
    Everybody works up to 14 hours a day so the house is just a place to sleep.
    On the weekends we have the option to go to the country house.
    I take your points but have a different view on it.
    Granted Sampa is expensive as compared to other parts of Brazil but this is normal for any metropol around the world.
    A right comparison would be Oslo, London, New York, Tokyo +++
    We simply settle for less here as compared to back in europe.
    And hopefully we will work our way up in the years to come :-)
    If not, it is not a problem as I am not a materialist.
    Oh, and we do not have a wish to go to europe every year.
    We are happy here.

    [/QUOTE]
    I think the conclusion which I have been arguing has now been agreed by you: “We simply settle for less here as compared to back in europe”.
    Quite.
    You sacrifice quality of life for the opportunity to live in Brazil. To live on the budgets suggested you simply need to sacrifice holidays home each year, which maintain crucial relationships. You just have to cut corners with the kids education and deny them the opportunities we had. You simply have to halve or quarter the size of your home. You simply have to accept living with high rates of crime. You simply have to accept spending lots of time in traffic and earning little for longer hours. You earn far less yet the costs are as high or higher than the most expensive places in the world. But this isn’t a problem. Is it?

  • #116740

    aagrin
    Member

    I am going for the sun and the fact that I think if you have a nice slice of capital there are hopefully more opportunities than here in the EU at the moment.
    I would not go to Brazil to work for some one, I think you have work for your self to be truly happy in any county.
    @nikkij we might end up in your area!
    @Juninho, do you regret moving to Brazil?

  • #116758

    Milenko
    Participant

    Brazil isn’t that different from EU I suppose, good payed jobs are not easy to find. Either they require great set of skills or you have to know someone … or even both sometimes …

  • #116759

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=Juninho]
    I think the conclusion which I have been arguing has now been agreed by you: “We simply settle for less here as compared to back in europe”.
    Quite.
    You sacrifice quality of life for the opportunity to live in Brazil. To live on the budgets suggested you simply need to sacrifice holidays home each year, which maintain crucial relationships. You just have to cut corners with the kids education and deny them the opportunities we had. You simply have to halve or quarter the size of your home. You simply have to accept living with high rates of crime. You simply have to accept spending lots of time in traffic and earning little for longer hours. You earn far less yet the costs are as high or higher than the most expensive places in the world. But this isn’t a problem. Is it?
    [/QUOTE]
    Um not so much, if you want to live and survive like a Brazilian then I agree, but if you have a job from outside of Brazil and live there (or something of the like) then you can give your children the right kind of opportunities.
    Education is more than in the classroom, granted it is important, I would say the quality of life would increase for my children mainly because there simply is a lot more warm open-heartedness to be found in Brazil then Denmark. Living here (in Denmark) they have everything taken care of and a fairly comfortable life in material aspects but the culture is just so cold and uninviting that I would be willing to give all of that up (if necessary) to live in a culture that is focused on each other and community. Allthough our plan is not to give all of that up as we wont move permanently to Brazil until I have the right kind of job sorted out etc.
    If the private education is not enough for our children, we will suppliment it as necessary, they have (or at least will have) two very highly educated parents who aren’t blind to educational issues ;)
    There is always the oportunity for my children to live either here, have free university education plus a small salary while they study, in the USA or Brazil (we hold Danish/American citizenship). So I dont see any lack of oportunities….
    My main curiousity is to know how much the bare minimum is to live off of whilst there as its good to know this type of info for future planning etc.
    my 2 cents

  • #116760

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=ptic]Brazil isn’t that different from EU I suppose, good payed jobs are not easy to find. Either they require great set of skills or you have to know someone … or even both sometimes …
    [/QUOTE]
    hehe can be true, but remember, it depends on what country you are looking for the job in LOL

  • #116761

    ecenur
    Member

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando][QUOTE=ptic]Brazil isn’t that different from EU I suppose, good payed jobs are not easy to find. Either they require great set of skills or you have to know someone … or even both sometimes …
    [/QUOTE]
    hehe can be true, but remember, it depends on what country you are looking for the job in LOL
    [/QUOTE]
    ConfusedThe Dan I met aren’t exactly so funny, but Do you think the Brazilian are ?
    I don’t Know, I guess I read you plan is to move to SP, an interesting city ??? there are loads more interesting, or are you just enjoying getting stuck in endless traffic jam ?Big%20smile

  • #116769

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=tomjo]I am going for the sun and the fact that I think if you have a nice slice of capital there are hopefully more opportunities than here in the EU at the moment.[/QUOTE]A lot of posters express this opinion. I would be interested to know what it’s based on. I will wholeheartedly agree that Brazil is a great place to live/be if you are on vacation, unemployed, a student, or retired, but it’s a tough place to make a buck and even tougher for an emigrant. I see vary few successful gringo small businesses. Sure there are some posters on this forum who have found a niche are doing okay but I bet for everyone of them there are ten running a negative balance sheet and in various states of mind from hope to denial to desperation. More interesting yet are the number that have found work or opened a business and decided to pack it in any way; Darimound, Zeca, the guy in Bahia with the sandwich shops [LocoLouie] come to mind.
    I don’t know about the EU, but if you put the same energy and resources into job hunting, or business creation it is my opinion that it will go a lot further in the US.
    I will say it again, Brazil can be a great (not cheap) place to live if you bring an adequate income with you.
    Best Luck!!!
    DUNGA2009-03-29 11:07:49

  • #116771

    aagrin
    Member

    Yeah it will be very interesting to see what becomes of this advenchor,
    leaving on a one way ticking on the 20th so not long now, getting married, and setting a 24 month target, where bye if nothing good has come from living in Brazil over that time period then its back to the sunny UK for us!
    Thanks for the Luck Dunga, lets just hope we become the one out of that ten your talking about!

  • #116775

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=DUNGA]
    I will say it again, Brazil can be a great (not cheap) place to live if you bring an adequate income with you.
    Best Luck!!!
    [/QUOTE]
    My thought exactly Winkand that is the plan I must add! Remember that this is the technological era where one can work virtually as if in another country.

  • #116776

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=Baron noir]
    ConfusedThe Dan I met aren’t exactly so funny, but Do you think the Brazilian are ?
    I don’t Know, I guess I read you plan is to move to SP, an interesting city ??? there are loads more interesting, or are you just enjoying getting stuck in endless traffic jam ?Big%20smile
    [/QUOTE]
    By Dan do you mean Danes? I dont quite understand….
    If it was me you were asking, our plan is not to move to SP but rather the N.E. just outside of a capital city in a smaller city (so we have access to good schools, hospitals etc) quite tired of traffic jams and masses of people if you ask me!! LOL

  • #116777

    I like your thinking Tomjo!
    24 months should be plenty of time to find your niche here (or find that you don’t have one). Are you planning on living somewhat near your Brazilian spouse’s family? Ties are always helpful.
    Congratulations on getting married! Good luck with the move.
    @ Tovoltando, it looks like you’ve got it all planned out. Good luck to you to!

  • #116784

    micko
    Member

    tomjo-
    One thing someone might miss, being so busy gathering up all the documentation to get married and apply for permanencia is to bring along school records so you can register for some course here. I believe this is an underused method for assimilation. Really your university degrees, if you have them, aren’t worth anything here until they are validated, and I hear that is a semester long process.
    Best Luck!!!

  • #116790

    aagrin
    Member

    Thanks Dunga but the only courses I’ll be doing will be the courses of life,
    going to take Portuguese lessons though.
    @ Nikkie, yeah staying close to contacts and family.
    They being in Rio, how ever going to try living in Floripa for a month or two just in case we like it more, first thing we are going to identify is where we want to live, i.e being Rio, Floripa, Curitiba.
    If we end up in the south its my dream to bye a fusca, golf clubs in the boot,
    along with inflatable foot ball and deck chairs.
    Could not have one in Rio though as its far to hot to go with out air con…lol

  • #116810

    stapping
    Member

    Hi All, I moved back to Brazil after 42 years in the US (minus 4 years in Brazil in 78/81). My wife is not a Brazilian and, I had warned her, is absolutely p***off with the sizes of things here. She thinks that all is small and expensive. She misses the boxes of cereals, and averything else in the US, which makes us go shopping twice a week (we are 5 people at home and bought the largest refrigerator possible that didn’t cost as much as a car – about 500 lts.). Since I travel for my work, usually outside of Brazil, we decided to live in Serra Negra. Nice peaceful town, not much crime, and that was good, except for the kids. Being a mostly retired people town there isn’t much for them to do… but they stay out of trouble. The way I am securing entry into an American College is by enrolling them into an American academy which allows for home schooling, and my wife does the coaching. Their grades, which for the older ones were pretty bad in High School, went to straight A’s and they should be OK by College time. We moved from a pretty large home (rent R$ 2,300+pool man+gardner) to a smaller (3 bedrooms) but very good apartment in one of the best buildings in town (24 hrs. security, parking, etc) and my rent now has dropped to R$ 850/month, including IPTU and condominio. There are many advantages in living in Serra Negra. Campinas is 1 hr. away, and I can get everything that I could find in São Paulo, the airport is 2 hrs away, but there is a cab driver that I use who charges me 200 Reais each way, and I rest while he drives. We never hardly use the car, we walk to everywhere we need to go in town, and when things get hard, like me being without work since last May until now, we survived on very little and were able to give post dated checks and deal with local bills with a little more than a smile. Good folks there. Of course, now that I am back in activity, I’ll very quickly pay my bills and will only have to work 6 days to pay my annual rent. That is comforting. My family, however, would rather return to California and, since I am almost never at home, we may do so within the year. I have to keep them comfortable with their environment… mine is the airways. RTPinto2009-03-30 00:31:57

  • #116813

    ecenur
    Member

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando][QUOTE=Baron noir]
    ConfusedThe Dan I met aren’t exactly so funny, but Do you think the Brazilian are ?
    I don’t Know, I guess I read you plan is to move to SP, an interesting city ??? there are loads more interesting, or are you just enjoying getting stuck in endless traffic jam ?Big%20smile
    [/QUOTE]
    By Dan do you mean Danes? I dont quite understand….
    If it was me you were asking, our plan is not to move to SP but rather the N.E. just outside of a capital city in a smaller city (so we have access to good schools, hospitals etc) quite tired of traffic jams and masses of people if you ask me!! LOL
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes Danes, sorry for them !!! no I believed you were moving to SP..which is what it is..a third world megapole..with no public transportation..

  • #116819

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=tomjo]
    @Juninho, do you regret moving to Brazil?
    [/QUOTE] Nope – but just warning others of the reality and to come prepared

  • #116820

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=ptic]Brazil isn’t that different from EU I suppose, good payed jobs are not easy to find. Either they require great set of skills or you have to know someone … or even both sometimes …
    [/QUOTE] Its very very different from the EU. In London its what you know, in Brazil its who you know. Well payed jobs are still aplenty in the UK even in this recession – I know from personal experience, whereas in the boom in Brazil they were scarce.

  • #116822

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando] [QUOTE=Juninho]

    Iit?
    [/QUOTE]
    Um not so much, if you want to live and survive like a Brazilian then I agree, but if you have a job from outside of Brazil and live there (or something of the like) then you can give your children the right kind of opportunities.

    Education is more than in the classroom, granted it is important, I would say the quality of life would increase for my children mainly because there simply is a lot more warm open-heartedness to be found in Brazil then Denmark. Living here (in Denmark) they have everything taken care of and a fairly comfortable life in material aspects but the culture is just so cold and uninviting that I would be willing to give all of that up (if necessary) to live in a culture that is focused on each other and community. Allthough our plan is not to give all of that up as we wont move permanently to Brazil until I have the right kind of job sorted out etc.

    If the private education is not enough for our children, we will suppliment it as necessary, they have (or at least will have) two very highly educated parents who aren’t blind to educational issues ;)

    There is always the oportunity for my children to live either here, have free university education plus a small salary while they study, in the USA or Brazil (we hold Danish/American citizenship). So I dont see any lack of oportunities….

    My main curiousity is to know how much the bare minimum is to live off of whilst there as its good to know this type of info for future planning etc.

    my 2 cents

    [/QUOTE] As you say, you need an expat job or work remotely oversaes to survive well. Home scooling to the degree you do it isn’t for everyone or the same as a good international school. The bare minimum deends on what the bare minimum of things you need in your life, like return flights to Europe each year for the family.

  • #116828

    Anonymous

    I just want to add my tuppence, regards moving to Brazil and finding work. I’m afraid my message is quite negative. Contacts: These are people you think will get you a job. Unless they are in-laws, they are not going to fight your corner very hard. For somebody to do something for you, you have to be able to do something for them. Just being good at your job I would say isn’t enough. This leads to my second point…. There are a myriad of reasons why Brazil is not as rich as say South Korea. But among there would be not being overtly focussed on results. If you are some amazing developer who has all the latest technology and could point to examples of where you brought results to the company you worked for, I still have the feeling that some nephew who couldn’t care less about technology in general will get the job. OK, releases might come out later than planned, but it’s not the end of the world. This is one of the reasons why gringos come to Brazil. It’s not like home, people see me not as a number blah, blah blah. That geweltanschaungen (sp?) also has some differences to developed world attitudes to nepotism, morals. So, I’d say you can’t have it both ways. Cost of stuff from potato mashers to flat screen TVs and traffic in Sampa, also mean you have to seriously consider why you come here. I think that the people who come to Brazil, expecting a simpler life and a lot of patience have the best chance of staying here the longest. Me, I’m the loser who came here believing that having a lot of experience in the field I work, a perm. visa (& so CTPS card)and speaking fluent Portuguese might actually help in getting a job. A simple life, sipping beer and going fishing in the North East as most of the posters from Joao Pessoa? Go for it, it sounds ideal! Living and working in Sao Paulo? You’re insane!

  • #116830

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=Spanish_tony]There are a myriad of reasons why Brazil is not as rich as say South Korea. But among there would be not being overtly focussed on results. [/QUOTE]Yes, Yes … Brazil is not a meritocracy.
    Tony – That was a good post … now welcome to the negative, miserable, loser club …
    DUNGA2009-03-30 10:02:43

  • #116853

    [QUOTE=ToVoltando]
    There is always the oportunity for my children to live either here, have free university education plus a small salary while they study[/QUOTE]
    I hope you were talking about in Europe. Brazilian public schools are free but VERY difficult to get into. I’ve heard that only 1% of the country graduates from a public school!
    American schools will also be very expensive because as American citizens, they won’t qualify as international students but they also won’t qualify for instate tuition at any colleges. I’m not sure how the private loan process goes for children of American parents living abroad.
    To build off of Spanish_Tony’s post contacts aren’t only people who will help you get a job, but people who will be willing to point out the good hospitals and take you there when you are sick and will be willing to stick out there neck for you pull strings for you when you need it. They are inlaws, people who owe you some serious favors and/or people who think you can be of help to them in the future. Be prepared to be in debt to and be used by all three groups after they help you. Brazil is a web of contacts and interdependency, if someone doesn’t see you playing a crucial role in their scheme, they are unlikely to really let you into the circle.
    I haven’t jumped on the negative bandwagon yet…but definitely hanging out in the land of CAUTIOUS optimism.

  • #116854

    Gringo go go
    Participant

    [QUOTE=Spanish_tony]

    A simple life, sipping beer and going fishing in the North East as most of the posters from Joao Pessoa? Go for it, it sounds ideal!
    Living and working in Sao Paulo? You’re insane!

    [/QUOTE]
    Sorry to hear your story Tony. I never knew life in Joao Pessoa came across like that. Speaking as someone who knows most of the posters it would seem that most are working really hard but enjoying life to the full. After all, JP does have a lot to offer. Certainly all the ones I met at the recent get together fell into “grafters” category.

  • #116859

    aagrin
    Member

    Yeah sorry to here that Tony, whats it like to be back in the UK, what do you miss most about Brazil now your home and dry? if thats poss in the UK lol

  • #116861

    gatinha
    Member

    [QUOTE=nikkij12185] [QUOTE=ToVoltando]
    There is always the oportunity for my children to live either here, have free university education plus a small salary while they study[/QUOTE]

    I hope you were talking about in Europe. Brazilian public schools are free but VERY difficult to get into. I’ve heard that only 1% of the country graduates from a public school!

    American schools will also be very expensive because as American citizens, they won’t qualify as international students but they also won’t qualify for instate tuition at any colleges. I’m not sure how the private loan process goes for children of American parents living abroad.

    To build off of Spanish_Tony’s post contacts aren’t only people who will help you get a job, but people who will be willing to point out the good hospitals and take you there when you are sick and will be willing to stick out there neck for you pull strings for you when you need it. They are inlaws, people who owe you some serious favors and/or people who think you can be of help to them in the future. Be prepared to be in debt to and be used by all three groups after they help you. Brazil is a web of contacts and interdependency, if someone doesn’t see you playing a crucial role in their scheme, they are unlikely to really let you into the circle.

    I haven’t jumped on the negative bandwagon yet…but definitely hanging out in the land of CAUTIOUS optimism.[/QUOTE]

    Yes I mean Europe, my kids can study in any country free of charge because they are Danish but if they study in the scandanavian countries, in addition to free they will also receive a small salary (around 1500 reais a month which isn’t all that much but better than nothing!), I think this is true if they study in any european country that they will get paid out from Denmark…but not entirely sure!

    I think the bottom line is that Brazil favors the prepared , don’t expect to come to brazil with a backpack and expect to make it good! Plan and prepare well before hand; buy a house in another country that can be sold for a profit, educate yourself in a type of work that can be done remotely comes to mind. Otherwise be prepared for a VERY simple life!

    If you believe in God and the bible, find a good church, that’s a good circle to be in Brazil! (speaking from experience) they will take their shirts off their backs for each other without expecting anything in return.

  • #116887

    I keep telling my dad that! (Mostly because I don’t want to have to go visit my folks in Arizona, Florida or someother old folks town every Christmas once he retires).
    To expand upon what Dunga said so nice and concisely a few posts back, Brasil is a great place to retire. The visa requirement is set at a level where you would be pretty comfortable especially if you have enough savings to buy your place out right. $2000 US for two people with just food, light and travel bills will put you in a pretty nice spot.
    It is also a decent option for people looking to spend a few years between undergraduate studies and grad school/ starting a career. Teaching under the table could move you a step up from ramen noodles and over crowded dorm rooms. It would help you gain valuable language skills that could make your resume more competitive later on and provide you with life shaping experiences that can help you decide what you want to do with your life and give you a topic for personal essays for grad schools. For the industrious, adventurous type I think spending some time in Brazil is an excellent option compared to moving home with mom and dad and doing temp work (or something of the sort).
    Unfortunately, there is no yellow brick road in Brazil for gringos looking to escape the crisis elsewhere. A lower cost of living and lower levels of education does not mean that the country is open for foreigners to waltz in and run the show. It is a society built on personal connections and trust that is hard to enter. Simply coming from abroad won’t catipulate you into high society over millions of Brazilians struggling to work their way up. The degrees, references and experiences you have worked your whole life to gain can mean little to nothing here, especially if you are not fluent in Portuguese and don’t have a lot of experience in and strong ties to Brazil.
    It is a difficult place to build a career or start a family, but has potential if you are organized, hardworking, lucky and most importantly have connections that can fully induct you into this paternalistic society. It requires flexibility, patience, respect for the culture and lots and lots of planning/preparation.
    Brazil is not for the weak.
    Nor is it for the original poster or people with similar ideas.

  • #116888

    @tomjo, twirly- having family here is a big help. It makes the decision process slightly different than that of the original poster. You aren’t looking to beat out the crisis, but are making a decision to radically change your lifestyle to one your Brazilian spouses are comfortable with. It is noble, but I won’t to issue a word of caution to those you represent. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING INTO.
    Twirly, you seem ok with lowering the standard of living you were accustomed to and Tomjo, you guys have a time limit for success. A lot of people move to Brazil to be with their spouses, don’t find success, become more upset than RTPInto‚Äôs family and they leave their partner and go home. I‚Äôve seen foreign men and women do this and when it happens both parties end up pretty wrecked. It is sad, but true. I hope the discussion about how difficult moving is, how much is needed to maintain a gringos standard of living, etc. serves to help people really think about what they are doing before it is too late.
    @ ToVoltando, you have the right idea. Take your time, it’s the Brazilian way.
    I really think the salary recommendations on page 7 of this discussion are pretty solid. They are meant for families with 2kids looking for a decent (not exhorbidant) standard of living compared to what they are used to in the US or Europe. Consider this carefully if you are planning to move to Brazil on a PERMANENT basis. Generally people move across the globe to better their material standard of living and not lower it. It is likely much harder than you think.

  • #116897

    Anonymous

    Hi Tomjo, Moving back to the UK wasn’t a problem , being away from my wife while we sorted her visa out was.CryThe UK is still like a new country since I haven’t lived here properly for nearly ten years (I was based in Spain/Italy). The best part about moving back is taking part in society, being productive etc. What do I miss? I might come across as sour grapes but I really went because my wife had a good career and my skills were more transferable, having said that there was a house we would stay at in barra de sahy which was great. Tamashin: I apologise if my post gave the impression that the gringos in JP were anything but grafters!

  • #116899

    aagrin
    Member

    @Nikkij Like you are saying Its going to be much harder for my new wife to get back in to Rio than it’s going to be for me.
    She has not lived there for 5/6 years now and when she did she was going out with a well none restaurant owner and got to go out and eat in all the best places for free.
    Making it even harder for me to easy the shock of being back in the 3erd world, I hope my income of R6540 will help me compete in the matter.
    Giving the fact we don’t have kids hopefully will help.
    Nether of us are that keen on dropping our levels of living how ever I’m hopping some good friendships and a healthy more relaxed life style will help over come that, and hey If It don’t work out we can always come back right?
    @ Tony, Another main contribute to our move was that fact that my misses has the papers to be a lawyer in Brazil, and in the UK she can not clime the ladder as its very hard in less your English all most native here.
    Very hard for highly Qualified Brazilians here who will never be better than a cleaner for example.
    I’m glad you seem happy in the UK, I some times wish I saw it as a new country.

  • #116901

    Anonymous

    Hi Tomjo, Well seeing it as a new country is easier in that what we want in life has changed too, so we prefer village life to the city, wanting to start a family etc. If you already have a salary like that, you’re imediately better off than most Brazilians. We lived on my wife’s salary which varied a bit (sales) but was around the R7-8k. (I bought the appartment but high-ish condo fees each month 2 cars but only one was used I was on bilhete unico!) and we could afford to eat out when and where we wanted relatively easily. We also flew to visit relatives in ceara (10 vezes no cartao) so we weren’t restricted (we didn’t go nuts going out but we are now quite a boring couple!) I would say that it was difficult to impossible to save and when the car insurance came through for R$4K we transferred money across from the UK. You probably already know but there is an excess of lawyers in Brazil. I know one who left it to start a travel agency because he couldn’t make a living lawyering.

  • #116903

    brentmo
    Member

    Well, after reading all previous posts, I feel that my husband will not find a job easily in Brazil. He has been made redundant after nearly 30 years in the same UK company. I am Brazilian resident in the UK and I must say that it has been very hard to get a job interview, let alone a job itself. In better times I could not get an interview very often, I would say that I had a handful of them, scarcely. Here, as a foreigner, the best one can get is being a cleaner in shopping centres and have to face the filth of dirty and badly behaved people who feel that they can do what they like in public toilets. I refuse doing that. AngryOne of my sisters, who is very skilled and post- graduated was trying to get another job last year but she could not even get an interview. Luckily she works for a very good and solid company in Brazil and she have given up looking for employment anywhere else. That shows you that even for Brazilians with good education is hard to get a good position within a company.

  • #116935

    mastercoop
    Member

    Roshar I got canned last month. I found a new job within 6 weeks. It’s all about determination, belief and willpower. Looking for a job is a full time job. Be flexible creative and persuasive. Look in all places and register with lots of recruitment agencies. Cleaning toiolets is as bad as it gets in the UK, but office assistants jobs are still available and pay ¬£2,000 a month. That’s nearly R$7,000 – a small fortune in Twirly’s books. With free healthcare and schooling, cheap goods, flights and services, you don’t even have to accept ‘the simple life’. My Brazilian sister-in-law came to the UK with no office experience and has done exactly that, so I speak from firsthand knowledge. Juninho2009-04-02 08:48:05

  • #116955

    aagrin
    Member

    That is a lot for a office assistant, out of most of the Brazilians I know in London witch is about 20 or more, most take home about 200 pounds per week.
    Most have papers in Brazil to have what would be a good job in Brazil how ever chose to clean toiolets as they make more money here in the UK.
    ¬£2,000 per month is more that the average wage? I don’t think an Office assistant would get that here.
    I do see a few Brazilians with good jobs but most are married to English and have been here for a long, long time, so I think its just as hard for a Brit going to Brazil as it is for a Brazilian going to the UK.

  • #117028

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=tomjo]That is a lot for a office assistant, out of most of the Brazilians I know in London witch is about 20 or more, most take home about 200 pounds per week.
    Most have papers in Brazil to have what would be a good job in Brazil how ever chose to clean toiolets as they make more money here in the UK.
    ¬£2,000 per month is more that the average wage? I don’t think an Office assistant would get that here.
    I do see a few Brazilians with good jobs but most are married to English and have been here for a long, long time, so I think its just as hard for a Brit going to Brazil as it is for a Brazilian going to the UK.

    [/QUOTE] My sister in law has managed to get an EU passport as to earn this you must be legal. She’s only been here 2 years but has great English which you also need for office jobs. By contrast there’s lots of gringoes some who have commented on this topic with both fluent Portuguese and the experience as well as the permanent residence who still can’t earn much. Coming to the UK is thus a far easier prospect – you don’t even need a pre-arranged job.

  • #117043

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=Juninho]Coming to the UK is thus a far easier prospect – you don’t even need a pre-arranged job.[/QUOTE]hence all the immigrants, some with real capital, struggling to get into the UK … US too …

  • #117048

    Anonymous

    Hi Roshar, All I can say is fore-warned is fore-armed. I’m not saying that everybody who goes to Brazil is not going to make it, I was just giving my experience. I’m sure that other people have had other experiences maybe they were better at networking, just plain luckier etc. than me. But I’d seriously re-consider going to Brazil if it is maintain the style of life you may have become accustomed to the UK unless you have the most concrete job offers there.

  • #117054

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Hi all,
    I was an early poster on this topic and have been following with interest. So, to recap, we can conclude the following, based on the comments of the more realistic posters, and not including persons who are posted to Brazil by multinationals.
    1. You need R$6000+ net to live reasonably well, with no children, assuming you have a middle class European lifestyle and don`t want to downgrade it too much
    2. Permanent visas are difficult to obtain for most people.
    3. You should be at least proficient in Portuguese, preferably Brazilian Portuguese.
    4. Jobs paying this amount are very, very difficult to secure.
    5. You are far better off if you can start your own business.
    6. Brazil’s business community is highly fraternal and nepotistic. Who you know is much more important than what you know. And there is a certain measure of xenophobia in the job market.(my own opinion)
    7. It is not a place to come if you don`t have a least a little capital. If you do, and are not concerned about working or are happy with an easy, uncaring, but unpromising lifestyle, an excellent place to spend some time.
    8. Be prepared for culture shock.
    In my opinion there are several other factors as well, but they have not been mentioned, so don’t want to open that can of worms, and seem even more negative.
    Seems to me that is the reality. Have I missed anything?

  • #117057

    The xenophobia isn’t in your own mind. Have you seen the shirts with the characters from Turma da Monica chasing out the Disney Charecters while waving the Brazilian Flag?
    I had a prof once at a public university who yelled at the rest of the class when I wasn’t there, telling them it was an embarrassment that they let a gringa get the highest grade in the class. I worked incredibly hard in that class just to be put down. The business world often isn’t much different.
    You have to be prepared to work almost as hard against the arrogant foreigner stereotype as you do at your job.
    Nice list Slimseun!nikkij121852009-04-02 13:37:26

  • #117066

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]Hi all,

    1. You need R$6000+ net to live reasonably well, with no children, assuming you have a middle class European lifestyle and don`t want to downgrade it too much
    2.You should be at least proficient in Portuguese, preferably Brazilian Portuguese.
    5. You are far better off if you can start your own business.
    6. Brazil’s business community is highly fraternal and nepotistic. Who you know is much more important than what you know. And there is a certain measure of xenophobia in the job market.(my own opinion)

    [/QUOTE] This money still won’t enable you to save much, as most middle class Europeans are accustomed to. I suggest you’ll probably need fluent Portuguese. Starting your own business is just as hard, albeit with different problems. Bureaucracy, taxes and untrustworthy staff are but some of the issues. Brazilians are nepotists because they have to be. They’re lovely people, but they all count their fingers after shaking hands with each other. Be forewarned.

  • #117071

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Juninho, Yeah, I said R$6 – 8,000 in an early post, but was shot down in flames by some who said it was too little and others who said you did not need that much. But it seems R$6000 is about right, just to live (savings not included) and taking into account all the other variables that have been mentioned, but don’t usually apply to a foreigner. Nikkij There is so much to say about the xenophobia / nepotism aspect – I just don’t want to get near that quagmire. But it certainly is a shock when you first encounter it. Regarding xenophobia, I can’t understand why educated, qualified, experienced Brazilians have this problem. The gringo is no danger to them. In fact, all of them except the indigenous folk are imported from somewhere.

  • #117100

    Anonymous

    Hey, looking on the bright side, the permanent visa wasn’t so difficult to get.Big%20smile

  • #117502

    OK I’ll jump in on this one…I have a friend who is a pharmacist in SP and makes net $4000R per month. He lives nicely in a nice apartment andhas a small car. He lives in a nice neighborhood but it is far from downtown. If he was willing to give up the car he could afford a reasonable apartment in a better area near downtown. Having said that, I would agree with Slimseun that to live really comfortably (downtown and WITH a car) you would probably need in the $6000R or more per month range.
    Living here just depends what you really HAVE to have and what you can/are willing to give up. My friend lives well and is happy on $4000R per month and I think a lot of people could live that way, you just have to take the train 1 hr to work and home each day. But when I lived in NYC I did that for years, so what’s the big deal?
    I do NOT understand how people can exist herein SP on $2000R per month…that seems really low to me. I don’t think you would ever be able to afford to eave your house.

  • #117504

    jonwilly
    Member

    We get by on 5/6k a month, our house is paid for and there is just me and my wife, paying rent and raising a family would be a different story. Having said that, I am convinced that our quality of life here is much better than people spending more than that in Europe. We go every year for a few weeks and every year I am amazed at the cost of living, coming home feels better every time.

  • #117513

    Xpert1
    Member

    Lets turn it on its head for a brasilian moving to the uk…
    [QUOTE=Slimseun]
    1. You need GBP3000+net to live reasonably well, with no children, assuming you have a middle class European lifestyle and don`t want to downgrade it too much
    2. Permanent visas are difficult to obtain for most people.
    3. You should be at least proficient in English.
    4. Jobs paying this amount are very, very difficult to secure without appropriate skills.
    5. You are far better off if you can start your own business – but you need to recognise that 2/3rds to small businesses in the uk fail within the first two years.
    6. Englands business community is highly fraternal and nepotistic. Who you know is much more important than what you know. And there is a certain measure of xenophobia in the job market.(definitely)
    7. It is not a place to come if you don`t have a least a little capital. If you do, and are not concerned about working or are happy with an easy, uncaring, but unpromising lifestyle, an excellent place to spend some time.
    8. Be prepared for culture shock.
    [/QUOTE]
    Sure my example is the UK, but couldnt we say that this list would apply to any immigrant moving to any country anywhere in the world?!!?
    muhnkee_22009-04-07 18:57:52

  • #117518

    Slimseun
    Participant

    Interesting twist, Muhnkee 2. Still, I can think of several changes of venue where it would not quite apply. For instance, moving between any of the countries listed below. There will be some differences and slight culture shock, but nowhere near the change from any of these places to Brazil. Understand I am mentioning basics here.
    Same language (or almost) Similar culture.
    UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.
    Language change (some extra culture shock here, but bearable.)
    UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Portugal and possibly some others, but not France.

  • #117524

    mastercoop
    Member

    [QUOTE=muhnkee_2] Lets turn it on its head for a brasilian moving to the uk…

    [QUOTE=Slimseun]

    1. You need GBP3000+net to live reasonably well, with no children, assuming you have a middle class European lifestyle and don`t want to downgrade it too much
    2. Permanent visas are difficult to obtain for most people.
    3. You should be at least proficient in
    English.
    4. Jobs paying this amount are very, very difficult to secure
    without appropriate skills.
    5. You are far better off if you can start your own business
    – but you need to recognise that 2/3rds to small businesses in the uk fail within the first two years.
    6.
    Englands business community is highly fraternal and nepotistic. Who you know is much more important than what you know. And there is a certain measure of xenophobia in the job market.(definitely)
    7. It is not a place to come if you don`t have a least a little capital. If you do, and are not concerned about working or are happy with an easy, uncaring, but unpromising lifestyle, an excellent place to spend some time.
    8. Be prepared for culture shock.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure my example is the UK, but couldnt we say that this list would apply to any immigrant moving to any country anywhere in the world?!!?

    [/QUOTE] Absolutely correct, apart from the facts. With no kids, ¬£2,000 net is sufficient. Get a European passport (any European passport!) and you’re sorted. Or get a student visa and work 20 hours a week legally. Jobs like this are easy to secure – you can even earn up to double this without a degree, relatively easily. No need to start your own business, though Brazilians I know who have are raking it in. Englands business community is the most open in the world. The proof is that London has the most cosmopolitan workforce in the world with over 300 languages spoken in those businesses. You need no capital and have better work opportunities for foreigners in London than anywhere else in the world. What’s more if you are resident and lose your job, the state benefits are some of the best in the world.

  • #117528

    micko
    Member

    [QUOTE=Juninho]You need no capital and have better work opportunities for foreigners in London than anywhere else in the world. What’s more if you are resident and lose your job, the state benefits are some of the best in the world.[/QUOTE]Maybe why so many people from all over the world are moving there. And doing well.
    DUNGA2009-04-08 09:57:43

  • #14026

    Marysp
    Member

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