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  • #88634

    Alimoc
    Member

    I got another frustration about Brasil. I arrived here about two weeks ago. When I came I bought a SIM card (chipi) for my cellphone, so I can call friends and so. Everything was fine for a week, but then suddenly I couldn’t call anyone anymore. Apparently I should enter my CPF if I want to call someone. Well problem is I don’t have CPF. Of course I now how to get it. But it really pisses me off, every country I’ve been so far I always bought a SIM card so I could call at local rates …. without any problems. I mean this is real bullsh*t …. apparently it some form of new law or something? Anybody knows anything about this? Regards Ptic!

  • #88639

    demiurge
    Member

    [QUOTE=ptic]I got another frustration about Brasil. …I arrived here about two weeks ago. Apparently I should enter my CPF if I want to call someone. Well problem is I don’t have CPF. But it really pisses me off… I mean this is real bullsh*t …. apparently it some form of new law or something? [/QUOTE]

    We Brazilians were also really pissed off when criminals were using unregistered mobile phones to call the families of the people they kidnaped.. that was a really pain in the back side believe me!

    [QUOTE=ptic] Anybody knows anything about this? [/QUOTE]

    Years back we did not have to register the mobiles(Drug dealers, kidnapers, money laundry people they loved that!), then the law changed and it is required for security reasons (you can always track a phone down to someone). You buy the phone and have to register after a few days, otherwise you get the line cut (as you did).

    MonicaB2008-01-25 02:09:53

  • #88640

    xela
    Member

    makes sense, I had to get a brazilian friend to buy the chip for me.

  • #88643

    MiamiMario
    Member

    Thanks for the explanation Monica – I vaguely wondered about that, too.
    My husband had to give his CPF when I bought my chip.
    ptic did they not tell you when you bought the card that you needed the CPF?

  • #88644

    xela
    Member

    I think you can just call the phone comnpany and give them your passport number or ID card no if you don’t have CPF.

  • #88645

    Sian
    Member

    But how would they know it’s valid by giving it over the phone?

  • #88647

    Peter74
    Member

    That’s a good point. However, it worked for me. Maybe I was lucky? Smile

  • #88648

    kellybrasil7
    Member

    Hope it works for ptic, too – but not for the crims!

  • #88653

    NeksGoobe
    Member

    why did you come here ptic you moan about the phones, dont like the beer, i am sure slovenia is a million times better no?

    but then again they all left Slovenia to live in the u.k.

    just to mark your card don’t start moaning about the Brazilian woman on here you will get slaughtered by the posties!jamie12008-01-25 07:45:03

  • #88705

    FDH80
    Member

    When I bought chipi girl there ask me for a passport, but I didn’t have it by me then. If I knew I would’ve take it, but generally I don’t like carrying my passport. Girl who sold me the chipi, didn’t tell me about CPF and I also didn’t ask becuase I didn’t find it rellevant. Why would I, I never heard about something like this. Anyway my friend who lives here advised me, it’s not a got idea to get my CPF, because of the corruption. He said it could happened someone could use my CPF, to make some kind of illegal money activity or transfers, which would then lead police to me. Other possibility is to buy a new chipi, this time with my passport.

    Jamie1: Don’t worry I won’t start moaning about brasilian women, I don’t have any bad experience with them.

  • #89166

    bocokzoy
    Member

    ptic, I’m glad you shared about this as I wouldn’t think to bring a passport to get a cell phone.

  • #89230

    NeksGoobe
    Member

    Rules are rules. It is to be angry, but why waste the emotion? Find a Brasilian friend to help you. There is always a way to get around almost anything in Brasil. Just be careful and calma.

  • #89234

    Sian
    Member

    [QUOTE=ptic] … Anyway my friend who lives here advised me, it’s not a got idea to get my CPF, …[/QUOTE]
    Your life will be a lot easier if you don’t listen to your friend.

  • #89237

    bocokzoy
    Member

    I’ve had my CPF for 5 years. I’ve had no problems, and it’s been necessary many occasions.

  • #89239

    bocokzoy
    Member

    [QUOTE=MonicaB] We Brazilians were also really pissed off when criminals were using unregistered mobile phones to call the families of the people they kidnaped.. that was a really pain in the back side believe me! [/QUOTE] Ha ha, another silly political game. Do you think a kidnapper is going to put his own CPF into the phone? She points her gun at the kidnapped person and uses that persons CPF. Or just makes it up … not tough to do. The CPF is based on a readily available alorgithm. Getting your own CPF is not that hard, even for foreigners. You don’t have to be a Brazilian citizen or permanent resident to get a CPF. YOu do, however, need to show proof of your parents’ names (don’t ask me why, it’s bizarre, but then so are must rules and regs in most bureaucracies), so you’ll need your birth certificate and passport. You’ll also need a legalized portuguese translation. Then you can go to a post office and get a CPF. Ok, so it’s a hassle, never mind. Or pay a lawyer to do it for you (not cheap).

  • #89241

    [QUOTE=Nick S] YOu do, however, need to show proof of your parents’¬†names (don’t ask me why, it’s bizarre, but then so are must rules and regs in most bureaucracies)[/QUOTE]
    The reason you have to provide proof of the parents names, is due to the issue of “homonimos”, that is, people with the same name (Jõao da Silva, José de Oliveira etc.) So having the father and mothers names can aid in resolving identity issues. It is not uncommon for a “Zé da Silva” to have his name associated with a crime or having his name listed with the SPC, a brazilian credit rating agency.
    Ed

  • #89254

    NeksGoobe
    Member

    I got mine fast as – they asked for my CPF but I did not have the number on me, so instead they used my passport number. From what I could tell all they were interested in was a internationally recognized legitimate ID. Simple enough!
    I carry a color copy of my passport and it has always been accepted as when stopped by police, in shops etc. Everyone seems to accept that it is not the best idea to carry around the actual document. Get a couple good color copies and keep one in the car.

  • #89258

    NeksGoobe
    Member

    [QUOTE=Nick S]Ha ha, another silly political game. Do you think a kidnapper is going to put his own CPF into the phone?

    [/QUOTE]

    Ha ha ha, do you think the criminals are stupid? (or maybe you think I amConfused)

    What the new law is doing is preventing criminal using phantom cell phones indiscriminately… it is already horrible as it is (of course they can still use other means), but we don’t need to make it easier.

    [QUOTE=Nick S]

    uses that persons CPF. Or just makes it up … not tough to do. The CPF is based on a readily available alorgithm.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok, the criminals could learn what the check equation for a valid CPF number is… so because it can be faked just let’s forget about it? What about passports, why bother? They can be faked…

    And the measure is not useful only in case of kidnaps, all sorts of investigations where telephone calls are checked (not all crimes are premeditated, but are still crimes). This way a cell phone will always track down to someone.

    You might think it is an unnecessary hassle… but…

    MonicaB2008-02-05 01:51:47

  • #89319

    NeksGoobe
    Member

    [QUOTE=Nick S][QUOTE=MonicaB] We Brazilians were also really pissed off when criminals were using unregistered mobile phones to call the families of the people they kidnaped.. that was a really pain in the back side believe me! [/QUOTE] Ha ha, another silly political game. Do you think a kidnapper is going to put his own CPF into the phone? She points her gun at the kidnapped person and uses that persons CPF. Or just makes it up … not tough to do. The CPF is based on a readily available alorgithm. Getting your own CPF is not that hard, even for foreigners. You don’t have to be a Brazilian citizen or permanent resident to get a CPF. YOu do, however, need to show proof of your parents’ names (don’t ask me why, it’s bizarre, but then so are must rules and regs in most bureaucracies), so you’ll need your birth certificate and passport. You’ll also need a legalized portuguese translation. Then you can go to a post office and get a CPF. Ok, so it’s a hassle, never mind. Or pay a lawyer to do it for you (not cheap). [/QUOTE] I disagree about that. I went to Banco do Brasil carrying just my passport. The women behind the desk asked me for my parents name and surname and I didn’t have to show any proof like birth certificate. I got receipt and women told me I have to wait five working days and pick up my CPF at receita federal. Unfortunately I didn’t picked it up yet, infact Im not even sure if I’m gonna. I called operator (TIM) and I gave them all relevant info about me available including passport number and they activated my chipi. Regards Ptic

  • #89722

    Barbaraftc
    Member

    As ptic, I was very frustrated when on a trip to Brazil (before we moved) I tried to buy a prepaid phone and avoid international roaming. The girl at Claro demanded a CPF. I offered my passport and it wasn’t acceptable. When traveling in Europe I had no problems getting a prepaid local phone. Well, the frustration got worse when, after moving to Brazil, I tried to get a contract cell phone. They wanted proof of residence and I offered the contract of the house I am renting, they demanded firma reconhecida and I did, and after that they wanted to see an utility bill anyway. Took me over one month to get the phone. I understand the circumstances (criminal activity, etc.) but we are the ones paying for the bastards, and it bothers me all the same.

  • #89730

    El Diablo
    Member

    The phones themselves do not need to be registered. I have brought a lot of unlocked phones from USA for friends, we just insert the chip and they are up and running.

    I unlocked a friends cell last week and got a chip for him at TIM. He is up and running. I did use my CPF and Original Passport (they will not take a copy at my local TIM in Rio). A CPF is quick and simple, I find that the post office is much faster then BdB. 2 days later go to the PF and get the number, the card will arrive in like a month or so. Utility bill with your name and address is a very common request for many things.

  • #89874

    Barbaraftc
    Member

    [QUOTE=MonicaB][QUOTE=ptic]I got another frustration about Brasil. …I arrived here about two weeks ago. Apparently I should enter my CPF if I want to call someone. Well problem is I don’t have CPF. But it really pisses me off… I mean this is real bullsh*t …. apparently it some form of new law or something?

    [/QUOTE]

    We Brazilians were also really pissed off when criminals were using unregistered mobile phones to call the families of the people they kidnaped.. that was a really pain in the back side believe me!

    [QUOTE=ptic]
    Anybody knows anything about this?

    [/QUOTE]

    Years back we did not have to register the mobiles(Drug dealers, kidnapers, money laundry people they loved that!), then the law changed and it is required for security reasons (you can always track a phone down to someone). You buy the phone and have to register after a few days, otherwise you get the line cut (as you did).

    [/QUOTE]
    Sure Sure Sure. We libertarians understand the infrastructures of tyranny.
    In Australia they claim they are censoring the Internet (at the mouth) because we need to stop them pedophiles and Terrorists. What they don’t tell you is that Pedophiles and Terrorists know how to use Proxy Servers and know how to use Military strength encryption. So what the mass sheeple don’t know is that these reasons given by our government and the propaganda media machine who doesn’t question their obvious falsehood, is that these are ALL LIES these reasons.
    And if somebody is LYING to you what does that mean? Indeed. Its called Alteria Motive.
    Now what I was so impressed by when I got to Brazil was that the Mobile phones were anonymous. That makes its near impossible for anyone to use your mobile to TRACK YOU.
    So what were you saying about those Kidnappers? Didn’t you know that CRIMINALS operate at the highest echelons of government? Tell me Ms Lamb, how do you think they rich boys in the Gov got a 100 million dollars in the first place? From giving to the Poor or from stealing from them en masse? From defeating their competition? And through legal and equitable terms? No drug dealers at the top of the Gov in Brazil? Tell me then, how come all that dope we see at every club in Rua Hooker is exactly the same dope whether you’re in Sao Paulo or Rio? There is only one answer: There is only ONE MAN at the top of it. And you think he aint got it down sweet with them folks in the Gov? Them non-criminals as you call them?
    My god you all better wake up. Didn’t you know that the kidnappers throw their anonymous phones in the bin after making their call because otherwise the number can now be tracked to its location? Its called TRIANGULATION – accurate to the millimetre. Didn’t you know that the kidnappers will just mug someone at gun point to get their phone and make the anonymous call and then give the phone back? You just grab some punk in the favela with a 6 gun to his head. Borrow his phone kindly. Make the death threat phone call. Then give it back to him. Remember to wear your head scarf.
    Didn’t you know the phones are still trackable even when switched off? Yeh thats right. If you want them off-line you have to physically remove the battery.
    Didn’t you know that the NSA can drop in on a street using all the mobile phone cameras and have them running live and triangulising, sound included, so that they have a spec on the situation down there. They could watch you walk through the whole city. This isn’t just LIKE big brother, this IS 1984. Didn’t you know the NSA can just drop in on your dinner conversation? You that naive that you think the Dog Watchers are protecting your privacy or something?
    Didn’t you know that a phone-call from a mobile can be traced to its LOCATION i.e. the Den? Didn’t you know that this is all about TRACKING PEOPLE with known CPF?. TRACKING ENEMIES. KNOWING WHO IS TALKING TO WHO. SPYING ON THE CORPORATE COMPETITION.
    Why do you think every Mac notebook has tilt-accelerators in them? Its so they know the angle and aspect of the camera. They know the exact coverage of the Notebook’s camera in 3D space. Hell they can probably even map 3D of your passage through an airport terminal and zoom in and out of walls like Quake-hack.
    Counter-Strike came of a military platform. It was built to train urban combat. Thats the public version.
    Didn’t you know that the NSA has already been busted using their spy privileges for international corporate espionage? Didn’t you know that spying on good folk making good business is how the American aristocracy remained the big guns?
    http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/mhs/mhscommerce.htm
    And don’t be fooled by thinking that getting an unlocked or hacked phone will keep you anonymous. Real-time Datamining quickly links your calls to your ID through all your friends you call who DO have their ID registered with their phone and a postive-ID is known as soon as you make a few calls and the fingerprint matches.
    All in the name of Osama – what a perfect alibi.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFjlTCvhaw8
    Indeed, despite all the bottomless falsehoods of reason for having CPFs (Drivers License in Australia) connected to all phones purchased, the kidnappers can still go get some of them unlocked, hacked phones and make the calls they need to demand their ransom. Everyone loses in this but the very bastards we thought we sacrificed our liberties and privacies to depose.

    danryan2008-02-11 21:19:48

  • #89877

    blue
    Member

    [QUOTE=floripa4ben]I got mine fast as – they asked for my CPF but I did not have the number on me, so instead they used my passport number. From what I could tell all they were interested in was a internationally recognized legitimate ID. Simple enough!
    [/quote]
    And as a tourist you also just gave them a free survey of every location you visited and how long you stayed, what locations you boarded at, and so on.
    The reasons given for forcing people to have IDs connected to mobile phones are so obviously fascist that the fact that people allowed it just shows how powerful television propaganda is – TV tells you what to think morally of what you are being told. TV both informs you and analyses for you. You ARE the TV. You are not an individual. And I’m not being trippy. I am being dead serious.
    http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/post_1.html
    This issue is global. We who are not aware of the real motivations of this, those of us who are not cognizant of its ostensibility, are members of the Slave Class. Now you might think that because you don’t live in a Favela that you are not in the slave class. If you don’t realise what having IDs attached to Mobile Phones is all about, then you ARE. Your material wealth, your apartment, your mortgages, insurance, dreams, aspirations, values, morality – All the carefully indoctrinated facelessness of a Slave.
    But this issue isn’t Brazilian. Its global. And all countries have favelas – Australia, America, all of them. Its just in Brazil they blatantly label them. In Australia they call them Commission Houses.
    danryan2008-02-11 20:59:56

  • #89903

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=MonicaB]

    We Brazilians were also really pissed off when criminals were using unregistered mobile phones to call the families of the people they kidnaped.. that was a really pain in the back side believe me!

    [/QUOTE]

    Monica, do you really think that having to enter a cpf will disable criminals to use cell phones ??

    [QUOTE=MonicaB]

    Years back we did not have to register the mobiles(Drug dealers, kidnapers, money laundry people they loved that!), then the law changed and it is required for security reasons (you can always track a phone down to someone). You buy the phone and have to register after a few days, otherwise you get the line cut (as you did).

    [/QUOTE]

    Or you just steal or clone a persons ID and CPF (very common) and use that to register the phone.

  • #89904

    Greenback
    Member

    [QUOTE=naomiorton]I think you can just call the phone comnpany and give them your passport number or ID card no if you don’t have CPF. [/QUOTE]
    I don’t think so. There is actually also a limit to the amount of pre-paid phones/chips that can be bought by a person per month.

  • #89905

    phsp23
    Member

    [QUOTE=Hilary]But how would they know it’s valid by giving it over the phone?[/QUOTE]
    You have to give a name too. It’s checked against the govt database.

  • #89909

    testresource
    Member

    [QUOTE=Edumen] [QUOTE=Nick S] YOu do, however, need to show proof of your parents’ names (don’t ask me why, it’s bizarre, but then so are must rules and regs in most bureaucracies)[/QUOTE]
    The reason you have to provide proof of the parents names, is due to the issue of “homonimos”, that is, people with the same name (Jõao da Silva, José de Oliveira etc.) So having the father and mothers names can aid in resolving identity issues. It is not uncommon for a “Zé da Silva” to have his name associated with a crime or having his name listed with the SPC, a brazilian credit rating agency.
    Ed[/QUOTE]
    I’d say this is very old school burocracy. You have homonims in the UK, US, Netherlands and on and on. The whole idea of Identity cards is to not have problems with the same name confused. I’d say its quite possible that there are several John Smith’s in the US, some with credit problems, others in jail and some doing very well without being confused.
    I just got my drivers license renewed. 4 finger prints where taken. Obviously this must be used somewhere.

  • #89912

    blue
    Member

    [QUOTE=MonicaB]

    Ok, the criminals could learn what the check equation for a valid CPF number is… so because it can be faked just let’s forget about it?

    [/QUOTE]

    static public boolean CPF (String strCpf )
    {
    int d1, d2;
    int digito1, digito2, resto;
    int digitoCPF;
    String nDigResult;
    d1 = d2 = 0;
    digito1 = digito2 = resto = 0;
    for (int nCount = 1; nCount < strCpf.length() -1; nCount++)
    {
    digitoCPF = Integer.valueOf (strCpf.substring(nCount -1, nCount)).intValue();
    d1 = d1 + ( 11 – nCount ) * digitoCPF;
    d2 = d2 + ( 12 – nCount ) * digitoCPF;
    }
    resto = (d1 % 11);
    if (resto < 2){
    digito1 = 0;
    } else {
    digito1 = 11 – resto;

    }

    d2 += 2 * digito1;
    resto = (d2 % 11);
    if (resto < 2){
    digito2 = 0;
    } else {
    digito2 = 11 – resto;

    }

    String nDigVerific = strCpf.substring (strCpf.length()-2, strCpf.length());
    nDigResult = String.valueOf(digito1) + String.valueOf(digito2);
    return nDigVerific.equals(nDigResult);
    }

    It’s not that they can learn it, it’s in the public domain.
    http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/Aplicacoes/ATCTA/cpf/ConsultaPublica.asp
    and you get the persons name.

    [QUOTE=MonicaB]

    And the measure is not useful only in case of kidnaps, all sorts of investigations where telephone calls are checked (not all crimes are premeditated, but are still crimes). This way a cell phone will always track down to someone.

    You might think it is an unnecessary hassle… but…

    [/QUOTE]
    I think it’s an unnecessary hassle that leads to nothing. Tracking the phone down to a person that is not even aware that the chip is registered to his name is completely useless.

  • #89917

    Anonymous

    “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter”
    Martin Luther King
    http://www.freedom-force.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=issues
    To the Americans here: Vote Ron Paul
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klQEwKkilAU
    danryan2008-02-12 09:04:28

  • #90054

    Alimoc
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]
    I think it’s an unnecessary hassle that leads to nothing. Tracking the phone down to a person that is not even aware that the chip is registered to his name is completely useless.
    [/QUOTE]
    The mobile-phone tracking data can be used for both nefarious and beneficent purposes. Unfortunately the former is most likely.
    Rich folk in Brazil here could organise themselves to protect from this. They should swap chips with friends. Organising a CPF-Mobile Society of about 100 members would protect that society from nefarious tracking whilst maintaining the possible beneficent usages. For example in very unlikely events it may be life-saving to be able to track the mobile of a missing person, or someone lost in the jungle. In this case the mobile-society can check their records to identify which CPF-chip the person is actually carrying. The Mobile-society also needs to manage accounts and forward them onto the right users to payment.
    If anyone can think of a legal way to establish such a corporation legally it
    would be very useful. But you need to keep it small otherwise it becomes the same vulnerability to nefarious tracking. Thats why I say max 100 – in the way the degree of seperation between Directors and users is at most 2.
    O.k. design the Corporation Business Plan and then rumber stamp it.
    In order for those who have access to the CPF-mobile data and tracking servers to access the cloud of 100 CPF-swap society users, they would need to bribe the Directors. I think this is highly unlikley given that the Directors are also users in the small cloud.
    Thsi cloud will protect your rich children from the CIA and any other nefarious organisation. The NSA, for example, won’t even know that the Anon-Cloud exists in their data. Those 100 users won’t stick out in anyway amongst the 1 milllion users the NSA might have focused in on.
    There ARE certain ways the NSA could track down clouds. For example by developing a socio-economic coefficient of Family association with mobile-CPFs. (Although this might not harvest anything accurate enough to draw useful it may). Given the known coefficient-probabilities of geographic -association for family members and their children, the NSA could look for unusually disassociated family CPF-groups. And in doing that they could locate some clouds. However noise will still be presented by children who have poor relationships with their familys. And given that the cloud I propse is somewhere around 100 ( there is a safe critical-mass calculable) then this would probably be too much noise for the NSA to ever be able to retro-engineer and map your Cloud to identify who is holding who’s CPF-mobiles.
    The ‘secret’-society manages the accounts. When a member gets their bill they go and pay the bill as normal, even though its not really their bill. They then forward the bill&receipt to the society – o.k. I’m out of my depth here. An accountant would work out an equitable way to manage this process.
    Anyway, at the end of that you have all your rich kids protected from rich mafia and the CIA.
    Think I’m a bit loopy? Well maybe I am. But if I was a rich Brazilian with children, I would be talking to my friends about organising this – not just for my children but for our whole group of rich friends.

  • #90055

    gillouuk
    Member

    And every word that is spoken on a cell-phone is listened to and scrutinised by THEM!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

  • #90058

    beijaflor
    Member

    For example in very unlikely events it may be life-saving to be able to track the mobile of a missing person, or someone lost in the jungle. In this case the mobile-society can check their records to identify which CPF-chip the person is actually carrying. The Mobile-society also needs to manage accounts and forward them onto the right users to payment.
    That’s kindof a strange conclusion. Phones aren’t tracked by CPF numbers, not even by their phone numbers, but by a 15 digit number (IMSI International Mobile Subscriber Identity) maintained in a central database maintained by anatel which maps to the DDD-Phone number combination. You must know the number mapped to the chip the dude in the jungle is using to be able to track it using the IMSI.
    I would not know of many rich people that would want to change their phone number every few days in order to hassle the govt.
    There ARE certain ways the NSA could track down clouds. For example by developing a socio-economic coefficient of Family association with mobile-CPFs. (Although this might not harvest anything accurate enough to draw useful it may). Given the known coefficient-probabilities of geographic -association for family members and their children, the NSA could look for unusually disassociated family CPF-groups. And in doing that they could locate some clouds. However noise will still be presented by children who have poor relationships with their familys. And given that the cloud I propse is somewhere around 100 ( there is a safe critical-mass calculable) then this would probably be too much noise for the NSA to ever be able to retro-engineer and map your Cloud to identify who is holding who’s CPF-mobiles.
    If the NSA would track the conversations of your group within a million users they would do so by voice analisis just get the dudes voice from a landline call and then map it to the IMSI. That’s how they catch international drug trafficers.
    The ‘secret’-society manages the accounts. When a member gets their bill they go and pay the bill as normal, even though its not really their bill. They then forward the bill&receipt to the society – o.k. I’m out of my depth here. An accountant would work out an equitable way to manage this process.
    As I said a useless task since the dude is already tracked by the voice identification system.
    Think I’m a bit loopy? Well maybe I am. But if I was a rich Brazilian with children, I would be talking to my friends about organising this – not just for my children but for our whole group of rich friends.
    Nice if you want to keep busy.

  • #90068

    brettsmith
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]For example in very unlikely events it may be life-saving to be able to track the mobile of a missing person, or someone lost in the jungle. In this case the mobile-society can check their records to identify which CPF-chip the person is actually carrying. The Mobile-society also needs to manage accounts and forward them onto the right users to payment.
    That’s kindof a strange conclusion. Phones aren’t tracked by CPF numbers, not even by their phone numbers, but by a 15 digit number (IMSI International Mobile Subscriber Identity) maintained in a central database maintained by anatel which maps to the DDD-Phone number combination. You must know the number mapped to the chip the dude in the jungle is using to be able to track it using the IMSI.
    [/quote]
    Sorry Sven. I am speaking in loose jargon here.
    The phones are tracked by their IMSI# which is tracked by its DDD-phonenumber which is connected to the CPF number.
    So if you were a mafia man and wanted Carlos Antonio with Parents Donna and Donno Anotniao, then you would find Carlos’s CPF, then use that to find his mobile number, then use that to identify his IMIS, then use that to track him.
    So in order to minimise my already long dissertation, I hoped you’d infer as much.
    [quote]
    I would not know of many rich people that would want to change their phone number every few days in order to hassle the govt.
    [/quote]
    I didn’t actually say that. The first time they join the society they would have to get a new number. the number is connected to some member’s CPF. And they donate their CPF-number to the cloud. Everyone swaps numbers. JUST ON MEMBERSHIP. ONLY ONCE.
    [quote]
    There ARE certain ways the NSA could track down clouds. For example by developing a socio-economic coefficient of Family association with mobile-CPFs. (Although this might not harvest anything accurate enough to draw useful it may). Given the known coefficient-probabilities of geographic -association for family members and their children, the NSA could look for unusually disassociated family CPF-groups. And in doing that they could locate some clouds. However noise will still be presented by children who have poor relationships with their familys. And given that the cloud I propse is somewhere around 100 ( there is a safe critical-mass calculable) then this would probably be too much noise for the NSA to ever be able to retro-engineer and map your Cloud to identify who is holding who’s CPF-mobiles.
    If the NSA would track the conversations of your group within a million users they would do so by voice analisis just get the dudes voice from a landline call and then map it to the IMSI. That’s how they catch international drug trafficers.
    [/quote]
    I’ve heard about that. We’ve got a lot of different/competing mafia here who could access the IMSI tracking servers.
    If you were worried about voice-tracking you’d probably be hunting targets with 100s of millions of dollar revunues?. So these anon-Cloud societies could offer a premium package to take care of that.
    How many resources do they have to do voice-tracking? A walk in the park?
    Sven, I appreciate your criticism. That is how we arrive at a solution. But I have no doubt this solution is doable and viably doable for groups of rich Brazilians of about 100.
    [quote]
    The ‘secret’-society manages the accounts. When a member gets their bill they go and pay the bill as normal, even though its not really their bill. They then forward the bill&receipt to the society – o.k. I’m out of my depth here. An accountant would work out an equitable way to manage this process.
    As I said a useless task since the dude is already tracked by the voice identification system.
    [/quote]
    O.k. so we are at a point which needs to be smoothed out.
    Then we can move forward again.
    Sven if at this point you drop the baby then obviously you’re not interested. I certainly am. Thats why currently I don’t have a mobile phone. If an enemy wants to dispose of you they require resources. When you have a mobile phone and they can sit back at KAOS HD and watch you then they can minimise their resources they will need to dispose of you.
    Whereas if they don’t know your movements then they need to send men out to the field and they simply don’t have the resources to do that unless you are a real big time threat to their operations.
    What I am talking about here is trying to find a way that is verifiably secure (small 100 group clouds) that achieves what for mobile phones what we have already achieved on the internet. You might believe Sven that the NSA can track doods on the internet just as well. They can’t. They know they can’t if you know what you are doing. The more they want you, the more resources they will put in to find you, the more you are wanted, the more money you will have to avoid them tracking you.
    But fortunately, in most cases, there are very simple and cheap ways to secure your anonymity on the internet. The ball is in our court when we can organise 100 people.
    On the net, 100 people agree to be part of proxy servers. All of the 100 IPs share traffic. Individual members of the CLOUD don’t know who’s traffic iswho’s. It is passed on in a daisey chain. Yes you might forget aboutvideo-google bandwidth, but how much is your anonymity worth to you?Its only important when you are communicating or researching sensitivematieral, especially material that would imply your ID. The NSA only knows that ONE of the 100 users is their man.That means they will need 100+ times more resources to get him. They will also have to infringe on the privacy of 99 innocent people. Bust in to the houses of 99 innocent people with 99 swat teams simultaneously. So in fact its factorial multiplied, more than 100 times more resources. 1000 times more resources. Therefore impossible.
    The NSA can’t intercept the traffic because its military-proof encryption – public key domain. O.k., so maybe they have back doors. Nobody has been able to find them and yet plenty of hackers can hack million dollar software and embarrass the billion dollar corporation who boasted their bullet-proof encryptions for anything from Sony Play station to the latest Adobe product.
    Voice recognition is heavy duty surveillance no?. Alot of processing power. They would have to limit it to a few targets no?
    Sven, you know who it is who has the firmware-backdoors in all the world telco exchanges? the ones being used for the voice-rec surveillance?These companies are coming out of the IT Talpiot. – but lets not get into that. For all intesnive purposes we may refer to them as CHAOS.
    danryan2008-02-13 09:50:34

  • #90077

    Pinkiwi
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan]
    If an enemy wants to dispose of you they require resources. When you have a mobile phone and they can sit back at KAOS HD and watch you then they can minimise their resources they will need to dispose of you.
    Whereas if they don’t know your movements then they need to send men out to the field and they simply don’t have the resources to do that unless you are a real big time threat to their operations.

    The more they want you, the more resources they will put in to find you, the more you are wanted, the more money you will have to avoid them tracking you.

    For all intesnive purposes we may refer to them as CHAOS.
    [/QUOTE] Secret societies, Evil enemy called KHAOS (or CHAOS – depending on your mood), the latest in technological gadgetry. Boy, oh, boy, where can I sign up, sounds like fun.

  • #90080

    Anonymous

    Double post

    Diarmuid2008-02-13 11:04:49

  • #90083

    Bobosapo
    Member

    lunacy.

  • #90084

    Pinkiwi
    Member

    LOLWhat’s wrong mary???? Never play when you were a child??? mmmm, maybe SMary’s a shill ………………………

  • #90085

    play of what? being part of the mob or pretend to be a target of a highly organize mafia that is out to get me?
    nope. havent done either of those.
    whats a shill?
    supermary2008-02-13 11:14:01

  • #90086

    Aaronk
    Member

    rsrsrsrs You’re missing out on soooooo much Shill is like a plant, or in this context dis-information agent. When you talk about conspiracy theories and somebody is explaining their favourite pet rant, someone disagrees with them or criticises them, they respond with shill. So, here I was insinuating that you actually work for “them”, because the twuth is so obvious, how could you disagree??? Diarmuid2008-02-13 11:48:09

  • #90090

    danpatel
    Member

    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura!

  • #90093

    jfmacedo
    Member

    [QUOTE=supermary]play of what? being part of the mob or pretend to be a target of a highly organize mafia that is out to get me?
    [/QUOTE]
    Sounds like a lot of fun. Better than playing cowboys and indians.

  • #90095

    Dan, did you know that humanity is actually under the control of shape shifting alien reptiles, who require periodic ingestion of human blood to maintain their human appearance. The Bush family and the British Royal Family are actually such creatures, and Diana was aware of this, presumably relating to her death.The serpent in the garden of eden was one of them too.

  • #90099

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura![/QUOTE]
    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!
    LOLLOLLOL

  • #90103

    mstevenson
    Member

    [QUOTE=Denise] [QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura! [/QUOTE]

    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!

    LOLLOLLOL
    [/QUOTE] EmbarrassedConfusedEmbarrassed, didn’t get it, Explain it to me, want to get the joke as well, I know you’re taking the mickey, but I don’t get it, nobody here knows this expression. @Denise, Denise, where did you pick up language like that???? LOL

  • #90107

    phsp23
    Member

    all of this discussion about Kaos, big brother, etc is very entertaining diversion to original post. 1? … i think is lotof chain pulling going here though,Lampna’e. fun

  • #90123

    phsp23
    Member

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=Denise] [QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura! [/QUOTE]
    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!
    LOLLOLLOL
    [/QUOTE]

    EmbarrassedConfusedEmbarrassed, didn’t get it,
    Explain it to me, want to get the joke as well, I know you’re taking the mickey, but I don’t get it, nobody here knows this expression.
    @Denise, Denise, where did you pick up language like that???? LOL

    [/QUOTE]
    I don’t know how to explain it. or rather, im too tired to think about it :P but just trust me on this one, it’s funny. lol. It’s… a compliment.

  • #90355

    phsp23
    Member

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=danryan]
    If an enemy wants to dispose of you they require resources. When you have a mobile phone and they can sit back at KAOS HD and watch you then they can minimise their resources they will need to dispose of you.

    Whereas if they don’t know your movements then they need to send men out to the field and they simply don’t have the resources to do that unless you are a real big time threat to their operations.
    The more they want you, the more resources they will put in to find you, the more you are wanted, the more money you will have to avoid them tracking you.
    For all intesnive purposes we may refer to them as CHAOS.
    [/QUOTE]
    According to your logic there is no such thing as the CIA. Its just a Star Wars fictional organisation.
    Once upon a time, believe it or not, people denied there was such a thing as the Council on Foreign Relations.
    Dood, if you come up with an idea that would solve Sao Paulo’s congestion; that would cut it by 1/3 without infrastructural change, without investment from the Gov, but solely out of the free market and natural osmotic forces, and you wanted to position yourself so that you made the small fraction of take on it that happened to be, because your idea was so ingenuous, the yacht and 3 million real house on Ilha Grande you deserve: Then let me tell you woman, you will meet the CIA.
    Secret societies, Evil enemy called KHAOS (or CHAOS – depending on your mood), the latest in technological gadgetry.
    Boy, oh, boy, where can I sign up, sounds like fun.

    [/QUOTE]danryan2008-02-14 21:52:57

  • #90356

    SA2BA
    Member

    [QUOTE=Denise][QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura![/QUOTE]
    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!
    LOLLOLLOL
    [/QUOTE]
    smells like teen spirit. Or is that “team spirit”/
    Don’t get bogged whatever you do. There are problems here and global. We need to talk about them.
    danryan2008-02-14 21:55:15

  • #90357

    SA2BA
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]
    “There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.”
    Frank Zappa
    [/QUOTE]
    I guess you like that statement because it is obtuse. It makes no sense. Hydrogen is but a proton and an electron hanging out together. They have every reason to. Without them there is nothing else. These buddies survive more adversity together than any other species on earth. And yes, that is why hydrogen, juntus, is the most abundant element in the Universe.

  • #90358

    Corey04
    Member

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=Denise] [QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura! [/QUOTE]
    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!
    LOLLOLLOL
    [/QUOTE]

    EmbarrassedConfusedEmbarrassed, didn’t get it,
    Explain it to me, want to get the joke as well, I know you’re taking the mickey, but I don’t get it, nobody here knows this expression.
    @Denise, Denise, where did you pick up language like that???? LOL

    [/QUOTE]
    Denise is one of the run and hide folk. That simple.
    Sorry Denise, I know you throw pucnhes here – throw them now. Ban me.

  • #90359

    apricot
    Member

    Denise, if you were not so fixed on being indifferent, then maybe you’d see the BUS opportunity here? You might think its of little import, but you don’t have a casual 10-99 million and all the off shore sharks trying to convince you to offvest do you?
    I ask you Denise to go back to the start but imagine you had 100 mil. And then you’ll see its not paranoia, its survival of your 100 million.
    And when someone can track your 100 million dollar children?
    danryan2008-02-14 22:31:02

  • #90373

    demiurge
    Member

    Hi Dan, Could you fix this post of yours up please, I know it wasn’t intentional, but somebody reading this later may actually think your words are mine. Thanks [QUOTE=danryan] [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=danryan]
    If an enemy wants to dispose of you they require resources. When you have a mobile phone and they can sit back at KAOS HD and watch you then they can minimise their resources they will need to dispose of you.
    Whereas if they don’t know your movements then they need to send men out to the field and they simply don’t have the resources to do that unless you are a real big time threat to their operations.

    The more they want you, the more resources they will put in to find you, the more you are wanted, the more money you will have to avoid them tracking you.

    For all intesnive purposes we may refer to them as CHAOS.
    [/QUOTE]

    According to your logic there is no such thing as the CIA. Its just a Star Wars fictional organisation.

    Once upon a time, believe it or not, people denied there was such a thing as the Council on Foreign Relations.

    Dood, if you come up with an idea that would solve Sao Paulo’s congestion; that would cut it by 1/3 without infrastructural change, without investment from the Gov, but solely out of the free market and natural osmotic forces, and you wanted to position yourself so that you made the small fraction of take on it that happened to be, because your idea was so ingenuous, the yacht and 3 million real house on Ilha Grande you deserve: Then let me tell you woman, you will meet the CIA.
    Secret societies, Evil enemy called KHAOS (or CHAOS – depending on your mood), the latest in technological gadgetry. Boy, oh, boy, where can I sign up, sounds like fun. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

  • #90379

    El Diablo
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan][QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=Denise] [QUOTE=supermary]
    ooooooooooooooooh gotcha! Diarmuid é cultura! [/QUOTE]
    Oh, Mary! The best post in the past 3 weeks! ROTFLMAO!
    LOLLOLLOL
    [/QUOTE]

    EmbarrassedConfusedEmbarrassed, didn’t get it,
    Explain it to me, want to get the joke as well, I know you’re taking the mickey, but I don’t get it, nobody here knows this expression.
    @Denise, Denise, where did you pick up language like that???? LOL

    [/QUOTE]
    Denise is one of the run and hide folk. That simple.
    Sorry Denise, I know you throw pucnhes here – throw them now. Ban me.
    [/QUOTE]
    This run and hide thing makes no sense, but fwiw, the expression has been explained to Diarmuid.

  • #90382

    realestatesd
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan] There are problems here and global. We need to talk about them.
    [/QUOTE] And there I think you have the crux of the matter. Yes, there are problems in the world. Everybody has a different opinion on what problems are important and everybody makes their own priorities on what they will work on. You obviously feel deeply about what you think is important and I find this great. I feel importantly about some things, you don’t know what they are. Why?? Because they have nothing to do with being a gringo. If you go to other sites, you may see my opinions about what I find important. Do we go completely off topic here, yes, do we ramble off into other subjects, yes. Personally, I like this, others don’t, but I do. The problem is when people start beating drums, instead of a little discussion, things start getting heavy and you really start to doubt the sanity of the people you’re talking. Then the insults start and after that the whole drama takes off. We’ve all seen it happen here many times. I used to find this stuff kinda funny, but not anymore, because I think it reflects badly on the site and I try to block it when I can. My problem with you is that you’re a drum beater, you start off topics, not to actually discuss what you say you want to. You use language hoping to provoke others, there is no way in the wide earthly world you can convince me that all the topics you started were intended to talk about those actual topics. You go OTT, so what happens is, nobody takes you seriously, the more you try to provoke that we talk about these subjects, the gookier you look. This is a site about gringoes and all the stuff that we share, like I said, we go all over the place in the threads. The problem is that with certain subjects, you come across as plain gooky, this is what I was try to show you in my replies to you. So, not only do I not what to play, but I will continue taking the piss. In another reply to you I asked you how long you were here, my reason for that was that I see a certain amount of fustration about Brazil in some of your posts. A lot of us (probably all) have had this at one time or other, now this would be a great subject for us to talk about and something that I think we could help with.

  • #90383

    demiurge
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan]
    Denise is one of the run and hide folk. That simple.

    Sorry Denise, I know you throw pucnhes here – throw them now. Ban me.
    [/QUOTE] So, here we start. LOLBelieve me, Denise is not one of the run and hide folk. Why can’t you people spend some time on a forum before you start with these kinds of comments. Ban me, I can take it like a man. LOLLOLLOL

  • #90385

    Jerry38
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan] Denise, if you were not so fixed on being indifferent, [/QUOTE] So, here we are again, I’m not doing this to stand up for Denise, I’m doing this so you can understand why we think you’re a nutter. Goes back to what I saying above, we all have our own priorities, we all have our own aims, points of pressure where we believe we can somehow make the world a better place and we act on those points. Just that you can’t accept that. ETA: So, remember, for us looking at this exchange, the snowball is just starting, you baited the hook, we didn’t take it, we just started to take the piss, then you started to get a little more personal, raise the ante a little, see what you need to get a reaction. Please tell me, why are you and your ilk so bloody predictable???? Diarmuid2008-02-15 09:35:14

  • #90396

    Henzo
    Member

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid]

    Please tell me, why are you and your ilk so bloody predictable????

    [/QUOTE]
    Maybe the dream is to become a soap opera writer sometime in the futureLOL

  • #90412

    Aaronk
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven]
    Maybe the dream is to become a soap opera writer sometime in the futureLOL
    [/QUOTE] LOLThis is why I don’t watch soap operas

  • #90424

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=sven]
    Maybe the dream is to become a soap opera writer sometime in the futureLOL
    [/QUOTE]

    LOL
    This is why I don’t watch soap operas

    [/QUOTE]
    Would make for a nice plot though. The earth ruled by transforming, blood sucking reptiles and a group of rich people battling them with a cell CPF phone scheme.
    sven2008-02-15 12:49:32

  • #90476

    El Diablo
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan] Denise is one of the run and hide folk. That simple. [/QUOTE]
    Difficult to run & hide from someone that has my e-mail address, phone #, & my books… someone I have coffee, dinner with… someone whose home I visit from time to time… Confused
    [QUOTE=danryan] Sorry Denise, I know you throw pucnhes here – throw them now. Ban me. [/QUOTE]
    Sigh…I don’t have to tell you this is too pitiful, no?

  • #90618

    Aaronk
    Member

    [QUOTE=sven] Would make for a nice plot though. The earth ruled by transforming, blood sucking reptiles and a group of rich people battling them with a cell CPF phone scheme.
    [/QUOTE] hahahah, think it’s been kinda done, but yeah, would make for a real blockbuster.

  • #90619

    El Diablo
    Member

    [QUOTE=Denise] Sigh…[/QUOTE] LOLClassic Denise style, love it

  • #90625

    sphiatt
    Member

    [QUOTE=danryan] I AMis one of the run and hide folk. That simple.
    [/QUOTE] Dan, You made a mistake here, Don’t worry I fixed it for you. Don’t need to thank me, glad to be of service. Diarmuid2008-02-18 13:17:03

  • #90798

    Anonymous

    [QUOTE=Diarmuid][QUOTE=Denise] Sigh…[/QUOTE]

    LOL
    Classic Denise style, love it

    [/QUOTE]
    Haha, thanks! LOL

  • #11731

    Milenko
    Participant

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