What should be included in an expat package for SP
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Category: Brazil
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Topic: What should be included in an expat package for SP
Posted By: Londoner
Subject: What should be included in an expat package for SP
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 18:22
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I am being considered for a regional finance director job in Sao Paulo. What are the elements you would look for in the package being offered? We have children so expect school fees to be included, but what other things are the norms in Sao Paulo for expats?
Thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: Russell
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 18:28
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Rental for a good/very good apartment in an equally good/very good area. Moving costs. Err... Might be worth searching the forum as I believe this has been discussed in roundabout terms before. |
Posted By: nevergoingback
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 18:37
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A good medical plan and accommodation is obviously on the list. Ex-pat employees that are posted here can have a headache when it comes to liability for taxation on their world-wide assets and gains in both countries. The company can simplify this for them if they pay for all the Brazilian income tax (including the Brazilian tax that becomes liable on income outside Brazil, such as rental
income, interest, dividends etc), but then deduct a hypothetical amount from
their salary that is equivalent to their income tax liability in the UK. Obviously the employee may still be required to pay the UK tax on their non-salary related gains (depending on the source), and especially if they return frequently in the year (91 days in fact) but the company will be looking after the Brazilian liability on these for them as generally they would not have encountered this had they remained in the UK (if that makes sense?). |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 11:12
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Ex-pats should get return flights once a year for them and their families. Good ex-pat packages will also pay for a tax consultation with PWC or Deloittes to offer advice. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 16:51
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It was commented in different threads... different aspects like relocation, schools, monthly expenses, etc... |
Posted By: MonicaB
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 07:22
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Hi,
Here what I know some expat contracts include:
1) Rent + any condo fees if applicable
2) Company car
3) Flight tickets back home (usually once a year)
4) Off shore payment
5) School for the children
------------- ** There is more to life than increasing its speed ** Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Londoner
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 20:08
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Thanks everyone for your help on this.
Can you recommend any websites where I could check out property prices in the Jardins, Moema, Brooklin, Alto da Boa Vista, Vila Nova Conceicao areas? is it unrealistic to think we might be able to get a house with a garden for the kids to play in??!! |
Posted By: KiteFlyer
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 22:44
No reason why not just depends on the size of the budget your company is offering. There are some very nice houses in Chacara Flora with gardens & swimming pools. If you are only relocating for a short time ie less than 5 years then don't move all your household items but get the company to stock the house in SP with all you need. Also get them to pay the household bills including laundry and maids but excluding telephone & food.
* School fees yes...St Paul's is good.
* A very good medical plan.
* Unlimited language instruction for you (at work) and for your wife at home including
practicle sessions to the markets shops etc.
* Company car & Driver to start with as it's not easy driving in SP
* Once a year flights home
* Daily subsistance allowance for all family members.
* Tax consultants here in SP and also in your home country
* Consider renting your own home out for extra income
Just ask for everything as they can only say no. When I got shipped to SP I was amazed at everything I got. I asked and it was given wish that was the same now I've retired to Joao Pessoa in the NE but I guess that paradise does not come cheap.... well actually it's not that bad or it would'nt be paradise.  ------------- The worst day on the beach is better than the best day in the office. |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 07:28
I don't know if you have searched the forum, I'd guess not, as these locations are not necessarily close to each other. You should take a look at commuting in SP.
Not unrealistic but for kids maybe a closed condominium or apt would be safer. |
Posted By: Londoner
Date Posted: 13 January 2008 at 18:20
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This is great advice. A few questions.
Why do you say don't move your stuff if it is less than 5 years? It sounds like Chacara Flora is very nice but rather remote? how long would it take to get from there into Brooklin for the office and to St Paul's school? We have a baby who would be in the car for school drop off (and the children are only 4 and 6 anyway) so a long commute to school wouldn't work. Are there any areas nearer St Paul's that have decent houses/gardens? Are closed condominiums a secure group of houses each with their own garden, or shared space or what? This is probably a stupid question - but does the maid do the laundry, or would there be separate charges for it eg at a laundry?! Thanks a lot! 
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Posted By: supermary
Date Posted: 13 January 2008 at 18:32
The people who live in Chacara Flora usually send their kids to Chapel or to the Swiss school, which are five minutes away from each other, and across the street from the Chacara Flora condominium, as well as about 5 minutes from Chacara das Flores condominium and Casa Grande condominium. It's not too far from brooklin, shouldn't take more than 30 minutes, max. chapel is american & catholic (but not super rigid, despite being religious), swiss school is ... swiss. All three schools seem to offer really similar education and opportunities, except one is in american english, one in british english and the last one in english/german, hehehe. Your kids are young so it wouldn;t be much of a big deal, but in highschool they all offer the IB program so they dont differ that much cuz of it. ------------- ~Mary*Anne~ Make a positive change in the world and then Take It Global. |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 13 January 2008 at 23:24
There are services to take the kids to school; I'd worry more about commuting to work. Chacara Flora seems far from Brooklin... you should consider living near work. Though googleearth may be out of date for BR, you could use that for a notion about neighborhoods & expressways in SP.
Yes.
Yup, some like Chacara Flora & Alphaville are big the size of a neighborhood.
She does the laundry but not underwear. |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 13 January 2008 at 23:32
| By expressway I say it's a 4+ lane avenue, not necessarily fast... |
Posted By: Londoner
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 18:48
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ok, I'm getting the picture. I've heard the traffic is bad, but it is difficult to guess how long things will take. Brooklin didn't look too far from Chacara Flora on the map! So if the office is in Brooklin and the school is in Jardins, is there anywhere you recommend where we have a house and garden, and preferably be able to walk to a park? Is this going to be Moema (wild guess from looking at map!?)
Thanks a lot! |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 19:05
| I think Brooklin is a good choice, though it's always better asking someone living there (if you know anyone at the SP office...) the streets around Hípica Paulista are nice; Moema is a nice neighborhood but busier - lots of restaurants, shops. Some places may a bit noisy bcs of the airport. |
Posted By: Londoner
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 19:21
| A bit confused - 30 minutes doesn't sound too bad to get to work. How long would it take on a day the traffic is bad, and how often does that happen? Denise implies it would take a lot longer? |
Posted By: Londoner
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 19:25
| Thanks Denise - I was replying to Supermary's earlier comment while you replied to mine! |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 20:15
| 30 mins is excellent. A bad traffic day? When it's raining, or for no reason at all. A lot longer is 2+h. |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 20:17
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http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/album/080114peruibe_album.jhtm?abrefoto=21 - http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/album/080114peruibe_album.jhtm?abrefoto=21 |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 20:18
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Estado de atenção No final da tarde desta segunda-feira, São Paulo tinha um ponto de alagamento, porém transitável: rua Ricardo Cavatton, na zona norte, em seus dois sentidos, na altura da avenida Ermano Marchetti. Além disso, foi decretado estado de atenção em três regiões da cidade: zonas norte, oeste, e na marginal Tietê. As informações são do CGE (Centro de Gerenciamento de Emergências). O órgão listou os 30 principais pontos de alagamento da cidade que mais interferem no trânsito, com base nas ocorrências da CET (Centro de Engenharia de Tráfego), nos anos de 2006 e 2007 (veja infográfico). http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/2008/01/14/ult23u943.jhtm |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 20:18
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http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/infografico/2008/12/20/ult3224u53.jhtm - http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultnot/infografico/2008/12/20/ult3224u53.jhtm |
Posted By: Russell
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 08:26
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Echoing the comment about the airport (Congonhas). We nearly bought an apartment in Moema until we realised it was on the flight path, and the noise was very loud. Also, the flight path can swap - not sure if this is timed or a wind direction related thing. |
Posted By: Denise
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 10:43
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With soundproof windows, it's fine. It's a cute neighborhood but better for teenagers & adults. |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 11:31
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You can get houses with small gardens in Jardins so as to be near St Pauls. Whilst many are expensive, the smaller ones are within reach of an ex-pat budget for the larger companies. With the traffic, if St Paul's is the choice school, and you want a garden, this could be the best bet. Within striking distance ofIibirapuera too, and avoids airport noise. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: Trog
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 00:24
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1- the best healthcare plan they can find locally 2 - a good private bilingual school 3- a comfortable apartment in relatively "safe" and well-structured neighborhood. Ask for A/C if you can't handle the hot weather, most brazilian homes come with no A/C, even the high-class properties 4- a bullet proof car and possibly a private driver |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 06:24
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I'm not sure how many ex-pats are offered a bullet proof car plus driver! Probably only really big cheeses. As for the school, you really want a good international school such as Graded or St Pauls. There's more 'bilingual' schools than you can shake a stick at, and the quality is similar to bootleg Paraguayan whisky. A good friend of mine sends his kids to one of these in SP, and 3 years later she can barely say a word in English. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: Trog
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 10:41
He said he's going to work as a financial director in São Paulo, and I don't know many directors here driving with family around the city with no (bullet) protection. Especially gringoes with children studying in expensive international schools such as Graded or St Paul. |
Posted By: Bahiana77
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 10:46
| Since the original post was in January, he's probably made his decision long ago without your valuable input (and either has his blindexed car or is kidnapped as you seem to be predicting). |
Posted By: man of leisure
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 10:54
What you really mean is you don't any financial directors. |
Posted By: Trog
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 12:13
| I know plenty of execs/managers/directors/CEOs in various multinational companies, banks, sport clubs, malls etc. |
Posted By: Steven
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 12:57
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I don't have a bulletproof car nor a driver. Occasionally my wife asks me if I want her to drive when we are going somewhere but since she is a Brazilian driver I always say no, I would prefer to drive with my eyes closed than to let her drive.
I only know of one guy (Brazilian) who has a bulletproof car because someone in his family was shot at by a moto a few years back but he is the only one that I know. If I asked my company for a bulletproof car they would probably balk at the R$50K additional cost and would tell me to make sure that I keep my head low if someone starts shooting.
I think that the issue of kidnapping is probably overblown. I read Estado do São Paulo every day and I never see anything there or on TV about kidnappings. Don't you think that if people were being routinely kidnapped it would make the news?
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 13:28
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I once worked for a company owned by Tim. Only the Director had a buletproof car with driver.
------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 13:44
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Brazilians are certainly not the best drivers. My Brazilian wife for one swears that she never had an accident before we wed, but has since redesigne dall of our cars, all over, and even knocked a moped driver off his bike (no major injuries thankfully). Still as she doesn't drink I always have a designated driver on standby at the weekends! ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 14:29
 My sister in law has never had an accident either. She hasn't driven a car since she got her license either, maybe that is the reason your wife never had an accident before. On the other hand, just as you brits have the odd custom to drink tea with milk and eat deserts called "spotted dick", you also DRIVE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE ROAD. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Trog
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 14:55
I certainly know more than a person who owns a bullet proof car, in fact I think no other city in the world has more bullet proof cars and private armed security companies than São Paulo, except perhaps Baghdad or the Gaza Strip. Now "Panic Rooms" are the new item in the top 10 wish-list of wealthy brazilians. Bullet proof cars are like a thing the past given the fact even midddle-classes are having their popular cars armored, you can even get partial armouring in order ro save costs (only the glasses bullet-proof).
They don't have to play an extra 50k for every high-exec they hire to live in São Paulo. most companies are doing time-share with rented or leased armoured cars and some even own a whole fleet of these cars. This a booming business in Sampa.
They don't report every armed-assault or car-theft either. When things get so common and people used to this stuff, they don't bother covering them unless some celebrity get jacked up or really some thing extremely brutal happens to someone... Also, you have to bear in mind that are two types ot kidnapping: the traditioal style, where victims are held for weeks/months till rescue money is paid and the "modern" sequestro relâmpago, where the victom gets kinapped for minutes/hours driving around town at gun point and drawing money from banks and ATM machines. That's the kind of crime that plagues Sao Paulo and is the number #1 reason for so many bullet proof cars. |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 15:01
That's just because we're civilised. And I would point out that all the other civilised countries drive on the correct side of the road - Japan, Ireland, Thailand etc. It's you guys who are on the wrong side! ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 15:56
This civilisation obviously only due to the glorious reign of William III, Prince of Orange. It was the dutch that brought you civilisation after the glorious revolution. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 05:59
I'm not sure the Northern Irish would agree with you. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 08:27
Since when have they become civilised  ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 08:53
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That's my point - they were a peaceful lot before William of Orange arrived. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 09:30
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Well, you can't tame them all.
------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 09:43
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But they were tame BEFORE Bill got there. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 10:04
And it where the brittish and the scots that where not tame before he got there. Inversion of roles maybe  Anyways, he got you ireland back, or at least most of it ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 10:34
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It was in fact Bill who put all the protestants (Scots are Brits) there in the first place and we've never heard the end of it. Most Brits would be glad to be rid of the bloody thing. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 10:47
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Now that I think of it. Bill was probably one of the first ex-pats If you want to get rid of it, then just give it back to them  (if they still want it) ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 11:53
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Julius Caesar was in Britain a while before him. Whilst the Micks would love to reunite their peaceful isle, the majority of the natives in the North wouldn't be overjoyed. Unfortunately we appear to be stuck with it. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 12:05
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Yes, Jules is someone we seem to have in common too.
------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 12:28
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He got about ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |