Divorce process in Brazil
Printed From: Gringoes.com
Category: Brazil
Forum Name: Getting Married
Forum Discription: Ins and Outs of Marrying a Brazilian
URL: http://www.gringoes.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14725
Printed Date: 19 May 2013 at 17:27
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Topic: Divorce process in Brazil
Posted By: Matt
Subject: Divorce process in Brazil
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 01:16
Sad to say but I have just left the house of my now-to-be ex-wife, with there being no chance of salvaging the marriage.
So far I have received mixed advise and don't know the first thing about the process of separation and divorce. One says you have to formally separate first then can only be legally divorced one year later. Another says that particular law no longer exists and the process is far quicker. So basically I'm looking for clarity and recommendations for lawyers, hopefully that won't break my bank balance as I'm not a big earner.
This is my situation:
I'm a foreign national. Married a Brazilian citizen in the UK 6 years ago. Moved to Brazil 5 years ago. I have Permanência through our children, so I have no visa worries. The kids will obviously stay with the mother, and I have already moved out and am staying with a friend.
Now here's the bother: My ex is more financially successful than me, at least by 2-3 times. She has a business but it's registered in my name as she has a poor credit rating. Even her phone accounts with unpaid bils are registered in my name. She doesn't take a salary but just uses the business bank account as she pleases so I would need someone who is able to determine how much she rightfully earns. The business has caused some serious arguments between us as I never trusted her management of it in regards to taxes, paying employees correctly, etc. And she would never allow me to review the company finances, or at least hire someone to do it. But my main aim is to remove my name from the company and make sure my name is clean as I already know a few clients have sued her before. Wait till you see a judge order a few thousand Reais out of your bank account! So far my name and CNPJ are clean on Serasa Experian. As I stand I have no real intention of taking a share of the company, even though I took the legal risk and did invest money into starting it, and it does actually have a decent value. I want an ex with as little bitterness as possible. But I need legal advise on how to proceed as I don't know the first place to start, and what I should or should not be fighting for.
So anyone know of decent, albeit cheap, lawyers who deal with civil and business issues.
Any advise forum members can provide will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Matt
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Replies:
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 07:20
"She doesn't take a salary but just uses the business bank account as she pleases"
That you need to worry about. If the business fails, that would allow the creditors to come after your personal assets. Profit HAS to be moved to a persOnal account, for personal use.
Divorce has been direct in Brazil for over a year now. Best way is to both get the same lawyer, write up an agreement and have a judge sign off on it.
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Posted By: Twirly
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 09:39
^^I divorced a few days after the new divorce law was approved.
It is very easy.
Just do as sven says.
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Posted By: WENGER
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 13:15
Posted By: Gringodude
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 13:21
ya, it sounds like you're pretty lose about all your finances and what you put your name on. I'd be careful and try and get your self out of any potential harm, as 7 has mentioned!
sounds exciting! ahha
-------------
Keeping the BrazilianLifestyle
"Have a great day everyone" - Ray
"You know who you are, now go and reflect!" - Esprit
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 14:29
Originally posted by Gringodude
I'd be careful and try and get your self out of any potential harm |
Good advice -1
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Posted By: Amsterdam
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 12:14
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Sven your in box is full my friend
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 12:34
Thanks for the responses guys. Quite glad this this process can be done quick and easy.
I was initailly hesitant, for obvious reasons, to open the company for my ex. But as a loving and kind husband I did it for her. For the last 2 years I've pestering her to resolve the company finances, even trying to get her father involved. Now I couldn't care, just want out, out of the marriage and my name unassociated to the business. She was a very hard-headed woman, never giving me respect, hence I reached my limit.
Still, any recommendatons for a lawyer please let me know. I'm still waiting for a callback from a lawyer recommended to me by my friend, but am open to suggestions.
By the way, what's the process after the divorce? Would I need to contact the Policia Federal, or any other government department, to update my change of marriage status.
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 14 March 2012 at 12:44
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No need to contact the PF.
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 04 April 2012 at 03:20
UPDATE (sorry it took so long):
Divorce will be going through, possibly at the end of next week. I temporarily (verbally) agreed to 30% of my salary (she wanted 36%) in child support and having the kids over every second weekend and once a week night. Kids are aged 5 and 7. But now I'm thinking if what I'm agreeing to won't be too much of a financial burden, too much in favour of the ex. Yes, we're sharing a lawyer, but I feel he's somewhat biased towards her and not considering my situation.
Things that concern me:
1) I have no family here, so support rests on my shoulders when looking after the kids, whereas she has much family support.
2) I earn less than my ex wife, about half her salary, and her's is difficult to prove since she pulls money from company account.
3) I have no car, I use public transport, and can't afford taxis.
4) Still need to find a place to rent, will most likely share or get a kitnet near to the kids school (within in relative walking distance to the ex). I'm currently lodging at a friend with no means to look after the kids on the weekends and need to be out within 2 weeks.
5) We have no assets, so all I have are my clothes. She lives in her family's apartment and doesn't pay condominio or rent.
The ex has been relatively peaceful these past 4 weeks, expressing happiness and showing me that she wants peace between us and to be relatively flexible in regards to sharing the kids, which was my original suggestion. But now 2 days ago after our meeting with the lawyer she became somewhat bitter, hinting that she'll seriously enforce whatever the judge rules, even if unfair towards me but leaving her in relative comfort.
I just want to know what my options are:
1) Is 30% fair, or law? 30% equates to my kids schooling fees per month. I hear there are cases where fathers pay less.
2) Is it fair that my level of comfort will be taking a much harder hit than my ex's? She'll still be able to afford to go out (clubs, restaurants, entertaining the kids, etc) regularly, whereas I won't have the same privilege.
I'm glad that I will get the kids around so often, but from my budgeting I'm pretty sure I can't really afford it.
UPDATE (regarding business):
She lied to her father as well about it (she said she was doing everything right, salaries, impostos, etc. but really wasn't). So he's taking the moral obligation to sort her mess out, and remove my name from it. Plus he knows if she continues managing it the way she has been it will affect the family as a whole, so he's hired accountants and met with financial regulators to resolve her mess. It's carrying debt and has been badly managed, so I'm running and want no share, never wanted a share of it anyway. Her father is good guy, so I got no reason not to trust him.
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Posted By: Jully
Date Posted: 04 April 2012 at 03:38
First and foremost, if you're in doubt about anything, get your own lawyer, even if the divorce is amicable. Considering you're a foreigner with little knowledge of Brazilian law as far as I can gather, it will be the smartest thing to do. If you think you won't be able to pay for a lawyer you can try to get one for free at the Defensoria Pública, or with a Law School, they usually offer free services as well.
There is no set percentage for child support, the judge takes into consideration the income and circumstances of both parties and the necessities of the children when setting an amount. Around 30% sounds about right for two kids, but again, this is set on a case by case basis. Whatever the amount do not miss a payment, you can actually go to prison for that.
As for proving her income, you can get people to witness to the judge that she gets her money from the company.
What kind of asset sharing regime were you married under? Depending on it it will influence how you go about getting rid of the business.
Lemme know if you have more questions! :)
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 04 April 2012 at 04:12
Thanks Jully. Didn't think I would get such a quick response at this hour.
Yes, I have no idea what the law says and am really short on money.
Will be meeting with the wife later today (or tomorrow) face to face. I might include her parents in helping to influence her as they have been remarkably sympathetic to me, especially the father.
My objective is not to turn this into a fight, I don't believe there is a reason to. But I fear, since she generally has shown little respect for me over 9 years, will resort to an iron fist if she doesn't get her way. Hence I think I really need the court's ruling to be fair.
Assets: I believe it's 50%. Her father intends to open one in his name, since the wife has bad credit, and will close the business in my name.
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 04 April 2012 at 04:20
Question I wanted to ask was regarding visitation rights. What's the usual, or is it really a case by case situation?
This first month I've hardly seen the kids (trying to get away from the wife) though since this past week I have made a much bigger effort to look after them when I can. I can't accommodate them, but the ex goes out late while I go over to her house to look after them.
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Posted By: Jully
Date Posted: 09 April 2012 at 15:12
Sorry for the late response, I was away from the web for the holiday.
Talking to her parents seems like a good idea if they're simpathetic to you. They probably know their daughter better than you do :)
Visitation rights are like child support, i.e., the judge will try to set something that contemplates the children's needs the best. The most common arrangement is weekdays with the mother, weekends with the father, alternate holidays and school vacations are split between the parents. Again, this is subject to negotiation. There will be at least one hearing during the divorce procedures, and the judge will try to mediate the best solution between you two.
As for your ex's behavior, try to document it as much as you can. Save SMS's, emails, try to talk to the doorman of her building if there is one. Don't let her take advantage of you! Also, if worst comes to worst and you feel that your children would be better of away from their mother it will pay to have everything documented.
I know that it is very sad to go from seeing a person as a lover to an almost enemy, but I've also seen a lot of people regretting trying to be too nice when the other person is only looking out from themselves.
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 20 April 2012 at 23:24
UPDATE:
In the end it all went smoothly, could not have asked for it to go any better. I insisted we see each other face to face about a week before the divorce settlement. It turned out to be just what we needed. She had gotten defensive because she felt I was threatening her in my emails.
The agreement we now have is very fair and quite flexible, being very respectful of each other and best for the kids. The only thing really set in stone is 30% of my salary and having the kids over every second weekend, which I really don't mind. My intention though is to see them quite often during the week without infringing on my ex's privacy. It only took about 10 minutes before the judge, though the wait was near to 2 hours. She just went through with what we agreed and asked if we were certain if this is what we both wanted.
Strange thing is, the ex and I now have a good friendship/relationship because we've chosen to be friends (and at peace) for the kids and our sakes. I even picked her up to go to the court together, we also had a celebratory lunch afterwards at a favourite restaurant of ours. I bought her a huge bouquet of sunflowers before I picked her up, which did add some happiness and laughter to the occasion.
We're both happy for each other, glad to see each other moving on.
How much did it all eventually cost? One minimum wage salary each for our shared lawyer.
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Posted By: praia gato
Date Posted: 21 April 2012 at 02:43
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These days, especially for US men [ if he has anything of value ] ... Marriage should be taken very seriously because you are playing with everything you've ever worked for. Guys, it's so easy to marry ... is it easy to divorce? Think with your big head and dont be a fool.
For Successful Men: Divorce = Financial Suicide
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 21 April 2012 at 03:04
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After talking with each other we realised neither of us wanted to fight, we both respected each other's right as a parent and the importance of having peace between us and maintaining a lifelong friendship. I wanted my kids to live with their mother (as her family play a big role in the kids lives), and my ex wanted me to still be a big part of their lives. We had no real assets, so there was nothing to fight over.
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Posted By: needanswer
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 15:16
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Matt, what lawyer did you use? Did you divorce first and deal with the children matters later? I am in midst of a divorce but the lawyer is a friend/cousin of my soon to be ex wife and is charging me 4000 reais for handling the divorce only and has said that the child matters will be dealt with separately. I find this strange. If you have any advice please? She is brazillian and I am not. We have not seen each other since before the proxy marriage. I also do not reside in brazil and the country I am currently in has no brazil embassy.
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Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 22:57
Well, the lawyer we used was already a salaried-employee of my ex's company so he only charged a minimum fee (one minimum monthly salary) from each of us. I still don't know if my ex paid him her part, but I couldn't care about that. But I know he put in a petition with the court saying we were too poor to pay the court fees.
I was recommended two lawyers who deal specifically with my sort of situation, but I never got around to talking to them. I still have their details if you're interested. If you can talk Portuguese my advice is to get your own laywer unless you can trust your ex's lawyer. Once I got the agreement in draft form a week before the divorce I shared it with a number of close friends (some who had gone through a similar thing) and they all said our agreement was very fair considering our situation.
I find what your ex's lawyer is saying strange. As far as I'm aware the children issue has to be resolved together with the divorce. It's the most important part of the divorce.
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 23:06
No, you don't have to deal with the issue of kids during a divorce, but if you're paying 5K to a lawyer, you should make damn sure he includes it, as he'll charge you another 5k for that.
I totally agree with Matt. Get your own lawyer or you might get screwed. And get one quick.
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