Happy to be leaving
Printed From: Gringoes.com
Category: Brazil
Forum Name: Best of Brazil
Forum Discription: What you'll miss most about Brazil
URL: http://www.gringoes.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12754
Printed Date: 19 June 2013 at 14:57
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Happy to be leaving
Posted By: irishlass
Subject: Happy to be leaving
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 04:48
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I have been running a business in the Amazon for the past 8 years and coming over 3-4 times a year for a month at a time. A year ago I decided to make the move here permanently to expand my business, and have had the most hideous 12 months of my life.I speak fluent portuguese, know the region I moved to,am flexible and tolerant about the endless Brazilian bureacracy and have tried to integrate into the community. Despite the fact that I invest heavily in the local economy, in social projects and provide employment, I have felt like an alien on a different planet.
I felt as though I have been thrown into a pit of vultures, every single person I know here bar none has tried to fleece me in some way or another. It seems that us gringoes are considered the first target for any sob story, scam or dishonesty.( and I am married to a local- his family are amongst the worst offenders
This is just a warning to anyone thinking of making the move, think long and hard about it. The cultural differences are vast, and unless you lock yourself away in a cocooned mainly ex-pat society ( there are none where I live)you will find it an uphill struggle.
I am relieved to be leaving, but saddened that fundamentally, in my experience, we are not welcome.
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Replies:
Posted By: Gaita
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 08:35
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Sounds like you gave it your best shot anyway. Maybe something positive will eventually come from the experience. ------------- eu acho que sem |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 09:00
for newbies reading this post: These are not the feelings of ALL gringos who move here. Some love it here, feel that they fit in quite fine, and enjoy their new lives ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: rc206
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 09:14
| I have heard this before from people moving to another country.I lived in Mexico years ago and this was the same way.I put a stop to people always wanting me to help them.I let everyone in the area that I lived know that this GRINGO isn't gonna help you with sh*t !!!!!!!It made me feel rude though but it worked for the most part!!!!!!!!You can blame a lot of this on Americans/Europeans visiting places and acting like they are rich.A lot of people I meet in other countries think most Americans are rich and should help them! |
Posted By: GreatBallsoFire
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 09:22
Ha!!! I agree that some gringoes love it in Brazil, most crash and burn. The vast majority are quite happy to leave and smile with relief as the jet soars away into the sky. Six months a year is enough for me. ------------- Simia quam similis, turpissimus bestia nobis. Oi amigo, pode trazer a saideira? |
Posted By: maarten
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 14:35
I feel with you.
I think the main problem is in the social aspects. It is easely misunderstood. Many Brazilians have to fight for survival, they become selfish or ego-centric, at most they help their own family out. They also, in my opinion, think only short term.
It is not, in my opinion, against gringo´s. They act the same with everybody else who has some money in the bank. Combining a business with social projects is very difficult. if not impossible.
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Posted By: cardi
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 16:53
I tend to agree with this. Most of my friends in Brasil were ripped off much more than I was. What I found irritating was that moronic grin whenever you pulled them up and that semi apologetic shrug when you refused to pay. A vida no Brasil e assim. ------------- Criminals are never very amusing. It's because they're failures. Those who make real money aren't counted as criminals. This is a class distinction, not an ethical problem. Orson Welles |
Posted By: nesne2
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 17:36
| My general policy is that anybody who is not at least middle class I am not hanging out with. If they don't have a college degree and don't have a job that supports them then they will not be my friend nor my girlfriend. They can be my doorman, my maid or the person who serves me my iced tea at Mega Matte if they want but friends ain't gonna happen. And they can tell me all sob stories they want and how Brazil is so tough and boohoohoo, but I won't shed a tear nor give them one centavo. In general this policy has served me well, and I would advise others to follow it. Those of us who live here pay enough in taxes to have a good social safety net and it is not our fault the "poors" are too apathetic to try to change the system for thier benefit. |
Posted By: spiins
Date Posted: 31 July 2011 at 18:43
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Hey, Irishlass, i am so sorry to know this terrible experience you have been going through during your 8 years staying over the Amazon area having yourself your own business. I do not know too many people who went to this area where you are. I get to know experiences, yes, from people who went to live in the southern part of Brazil.
The whole amount of events you tell us here sound quite unfortunate even regarding your own in-laws! What a nightmare!
In the midst of all, Irishlass, consider you are alive, you did not suffer any attempt against you life. You can plan to get out of there and have a fresh start - safely somewhere else. I know it will take sometime and effort regarding the commercial aspect of the situation plus the famliy ties. You will find the way though. Something good will come!
In this meantime you be careful and be focused on you goal!
Wish all will be well to both of you, wish it will not take too long for you to write again telling good news!
Take care.
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Posted By: cardi
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 04:52
Perhaps bringing back slavery would be good. Do you think?  ------------- Criminals are never very amusing. It's because they're failures. Those who make real money aren't counted as criminals. This is a class distinction, not an ethical problem. Orson Welles |
Posted By: Bubbles
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 06:01
The lesson unfortunately that many people - myself included - have learnt the hard way.
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Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 13:10
| To The OP: You deserve a lot of credit for trying, and now you have the experience very few have working abroad, and Manaus can be considered 3rd world although I don't know that area, it's all a guess for me. In my opinion, I see two issues. If you're a woman from the USA, then in Brazil, you could feel you have less power, as in the US, women now seem to have all the power and even carry the husbands balls. The second is owning a business in Brazil is not easy, and I think almost impossible. Either way, good luck and bon voyage back home! |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 13:27
Interesting mindset ... just curious, what part Brazil do you call home? in short, what's your story?
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 13:34
I would not call Manaus more third world than Rio or São Paulo. It's a huge modern city, and, even though I consider it's climate to be a little worse than what I'd expect in Hell, it has most of the perks of any modern city in Brazil without the traffic jams.
Can't be worse than Brazilian women who don't carry the balls, but keep them in their vault for safekeeping 
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 13:41
That makes the crowd you hang out with at max 2% of the population, well, less actually since some 20% of those 2% will be unemployed or making little money and still living with their parents. When you meet people, the first thing you ask them is "do you have a college degree and do you pay your own bills?"
Utopia? |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 14:17
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This is not limited to just yourself. Anyone seen with money has these same problems. It's not limited to Brazil, but all over the world. Conditions constantly come up where people require assistance, especially when they're living in poor areas and barely making ends meet. Anything small puts them over the edge. nesne2's method of dealing with the problem isn't unique, and basically is a caste system he is building. Most people like to believe they're above that, but in the end those we associate with are often those we have the most in common with. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 14:38
But that does not necessarily mean a university degree and a job that pays the bills.... |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 15:04
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That's really just a starting point when using a method like that. It screens a good number of people out very quickly, leaving a pool that is more likely to share common interests, but could still share those same traits you were looking to screen.
------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: nesne2
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 15:43
| Actually it´s a whole eleven percent, within my age group, I get to hang out with! [:) I guess my wording of my "general policy" was a little harsh. But reading the OP's story touched a nerve. I was basically articulating the attitude that most Brazilian middle class have and in fact most Americans have without realizing it. If you don't hang out with people who live in trailers back home why would you hang out with people who live in favelas here. Most people here who are middle class do not hang out with people who are not middle class. (I really only see gringos doing this). Obviously if you are from a European country with less of a wealth divide this may be harder to accept. There are exceptions to this rule but basically I am very suspicious of anyone who is not middle class who wants to be my "friend". Oh and when I said they have to be able to pay thier bills I meant more the conta at the bar and not having to pay thier own rent and live by themselves. If that were my criteria I would have about 3 people to choose from in the entire country. |
Posted By: nesne2
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 15:53
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[/QUOTE]
Perhaps bringing back slavery would be good. Do you think? [/QUOTE]
Should we just apply Godwin's law, now? I must be a Nazi. There done. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 17:02
First you have to define what definition of "middle class" you adhere to. Weberian, American, or Brazilian. Because under brazilian terms, it would not be the group you'd like to hang out with as "middle class" are B1 through C2 (R$ 950 to R$ 4600) of income per month.
Did you ever go to europe, and if you went to europe, did you "do it in 15 days" ???
You refer to the "middle class" where you should be referring to "upper class"
I can assure you it is. |
Posted By: nesne2
Date Posted: 01 August 2011 at 17:49
I can assure you it is. [/QUOTE] Please explain |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 09:45
| You really need to ask? What happened to that colege degree? Your total lack of compassion and interest is what gets then in that position in the first place. You, with your fancy US college degree should help educate them to get out of the position they are in. Instead, you pay your maid peanuts and don't give a damn. Something the rich in brazil have been doing ever since may 13th 1888! |
Posted By: mitico67
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 10:24
------------- |
Posted By: CheckPls
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 11:08
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There will always be a differences in the "classes" Brasil is no different than any other country.
Not sure I follow with the reasoning of paying a higher wage than what is the standard. Seems rather "union like" to me..... LOL But I completely agree with rewarding good workers.
There are people that have drive and ambition to success, some fail. There are people that aspire to nothing in life. I am amazed anyone can survive in the Brasilian economy, it is tough. Here in the states, it is easy to lose compassion for the people that get the "entitlements" just because they can. Sorry just the way I feel. Reading the threads here it is quite evident there is a large group that "expect" the gringoes (no matter where they are from) to take on everyones economic woes.
The "OP" it sounds like you gave it a great effort and sometimes it is good to move onto another goal. I am sure you had great experiences in Brasil....hang on to those..... and hope for the best in your future plans.
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 11:33
Of course not. It's just that the differences in classes in most countries does not have the kids of the middle and upperclass drive in Mercedeses and BMW's while the children of the poor only have one meal a day of rice beans and farofa. |
Posted By: CheckPls
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 11:57
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Actually believe this is getting to be more and more common here in the states. Only have lived in the states so don't know about other countries. BTW I am more middle class.... (and slipping....yikes!
 ) So see more of the struggles than the country clubs...LOL |
Posted By: Esprit
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 12:20
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The problem in Brazil [apart from 101 other things] is the mismatch of population versus economy size. If the wealth was evenly distributed, poverty would expand exponentially. 'Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.' Wisdom in this instance should scream. Stop having all those babies! ------------- Esprit |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 12:58
And that wisdom needs to be thought. Not teaching them will not do, neither will teaching abstinence, as we all know that everyone likes to try things that are prohibited. It goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. We all know that Eve was the forbidden fruit Adam "ate". |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 13:48
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It comes down to learned helplessness. They've been beaten down so many times, by others, their family and their teachers that they often won't keep trying to achieve freedom and/or a better life style. At this point it's a physical block for them. They might say they are trying, but they aren't actively thinking/acting that way. Many of the ones that are, don't have the training and experiences of privileged children. Even if that just means being a customer in a properly run establishment and picking up on how they do things vs a poorly run business. The concept in the US of being able to work your way up is there, but it's massively misleading. Those who have parents that are CEO's are going to have a massive step in the right direction when they leave school. Even if the CEO offers *NO* help, those children will have expectations of what to see/look for when going out into the work force. Working at mcdonalds isn't going to give you useful CEO skills, you won't make useful work contacts, etc. You need to learn politics, see how others do things, how others make a difference, make contacts, work with higher ups. Even a manager at mcdonalds does little more than fix fights and lay down the law from above with no way to interact with those above. Mostly they're dealing with similar minded people, so they aren't learning anything new/useful either. The last time me and my wife were in Natal, these kids were waiting outside of this tourist restaurant/beach thing. We were in there, and I see these kids in bright vests and I ask her what they're doing. She said they're legally allowed to work, and were selling probably desserts. I had finished my meal and was more thinking about what they had, vs this establishment since the meal was lacking. Delicious cocadas! But she had to flag them over, so I started giving them business tips. Wait until we're done, but before they come back with desserts, let us see what you've got, a couple of english words that were useful. That type of thing goes a long ways. They were young enough to want to learn. It's possible to help people out, but it's slow going for sure! And once they're working as maids / low paid jobs they dont want to change, no matter what. Which is what we're all like. This works, why risk going hungry? Beans once a day is better than no beans! ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: nesne2
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 14:51
That would be true if I actually had even a part time maid. I live in the west zone of Rio (no not Barra). Although I might be friends with a few people who are A class the majority would be class B which goes to 8.100 not 4.600 at least according to wikipedia. Many of the people I am friends with are the first generation to go to University in thier families. In fact my gf's mom spent half her salary so my gf could go to a private high school so she could get into a public university. Then afterwards her mother finally sent herself to university. How did she have enough money to do this? She worked six days a week as a manager in a clothing store in the mall. How did she become manager even though she is a non-white northeasterner? She showed up on time, hustled, never called in sick, and educated herself to speak properly and act correctly. As stated earlier I may have been a little harsh in wording, but I think some of my Sogra's attitude has rubbed off on me. When you have worked your butt off like she has to get the things you need and then have people invade property close to you, steal electricity, water ect. play loud F'ing funk and pagode and then cry and talk about how poor they are and look at you with jealousy for what you have, you might feel a little rancor too. As far as my choice of friends, of course I know people who don't have college degrees but I can say pretty much everbody I am actually friends with has a degree or is working towards one. Same goes for everybody in my girlfriends social circle. Our social lives are not an NGO and neither one of us has an interest in hanging out with people who are going to try to rip us off or are so limited in thier education that they think all gringos are rich and that we have to help them out. |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 17:19
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jkennedy's comments make good sense. Living in South Florida, I see it all here. Immigrant Ground Zero. Brazil, DR, Colombia, Cuba, etc .... They all come here thinking the better life and MONEY. Unfortunately, these days, the American Dream is almost unattainable, anymore. Now it's much harder .... and many are trying to make sense, if it's worth working 7AM - 10PM every day, including weekends, every day, for the next 30 years, being self employed helps with a great idea, then after 30* years " you've made it " hopefully! And by then you're 60+ and not sick from all the stress you got locking down the American Dream. Most Latin immigrants to the US think it's soooo easy here. They think they can come here and work a few years and go back to Brazil a wealthy person, never to work again.
* Approximate number of yours to achieve good financial status being self employed with a great idea, according to Forbes Magazine.
My $0.02
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Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 17:33
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The first generation needs to sacrifice itself. If you're part of a community that believes in success, that's basically what it's about. These people are probably just looking for something better. The thing is, had they stayed in their respective countries making minimum wage, would they be able to afford cars, electronics, etc? Is it worse or better? Most people would say it's better. The smart ones leave south florida and head north, or simply away from the border. The deeper you get into the country, the better paying low wage jobs get (or illegal workers get paid). Also the easier it is to setup a simple business. I have cousins who do gardening/landscaping work in Canada. I told them about the gardner my friend had in LA that came 4 times a month, cut the law, pulled the weeds, etc for $40. They were simply floored. How could someone do it for so little? Well they don't expect much, and if they can get say 20 people signed up, thats 2K a month, better than minimum wage by FAR, but for someone running an actual business, 2K isn't what they're expecting. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 02 August 2011 at 17:44
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jkennedy - agreed 100%.
The most beautiful lawns in the world can be found on any street in Beverly Hills or Bel Air - CALIFORNIA, and all those lawns are mainatained by guess who? Yep, Mexican Men, and they do a stand up job! That said, I once lived in the country, in the US heartland and my lawn guy was 100% American Redneck. This guy couldn't tie his freaking shoes! Nichol and dimed me, complained about everything.
God bless Mexican men ... They deserve all the accolades for hard work.
Back to the OP. Don't forget, she's a single American woman doing business in Manaus, I bet with limited Portuguese, which in my hopeless opinion, is business suicide. |
Posted By: suzaries
Date Posted: 30 August 2011 at 23:08
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Hi Irishlass. Have you gotten out of Brazil yet? I am another person who is very happy to no longer be there. My husband is still there tying up loose ends, and his issues with the bureau-crazy sent me to the forum to look for some help. I saw your post and wanted to let you know that many expats that I know personally are also happy to have left or be in the process of leaving Brazil. These people are not simply gringoes on their first assignment, but seasoned world travelers who have lived and worked in various cultures. In the opinion of these people, and others I know, Brazil is a very, very difficult place to live because of the work culture, the casual lying, the scamming, and the endless and constantly changing paperwork. Congratulations on getting out. I count as a positive from my experience in Brazil a new sense of appreciation for where I live and how easy things can be here. As I was telling my husband tonight, at least you are able to leave Brazil. It may be a pain in the ass untangling things to get out, but you are not stuck there! |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 31 August 2011 at 00:52
Finally, an unfortunate but very viable post ....
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Posted By: Captain Ron
Date Posted: 31 August 2011 at 14:33
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Previously posted but perhaps worth re-airing.
"When the Lord Jehovah has finished making Brazil, he can’t help bragging a little to one of the archangels. He’s planted the greatest forest and laid out the world’s biggest river system and built a magnificent range of mountains with lovely bays and ocean beaches. He’s filled the hills with topaz and aquamarine and sowed the rivers with gold dust and diamonds. He’s arranged a climate free of hurricanes and earthquakes which will grow every conceivable kind of fruit. “Is it fair, Lord,” asks the archangel, “to give so many benefits to just one country?” “You wait,” said the Lord Jehovah, “till you see the people I am going to put there.” Originally taken from a financial article warning of the pitfalls of investing in Brazil. |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 31 August 2011 at 15:32
Good one Ron ... 
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Posted By: alastairkinghor
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 16:38
| Irish Lass has obviously touched on a nerve, judging by the number and nature of the responses. It has to be said that Brasileiros constantly scam one another, if they can get away with it, and head for the gringo like a swarm of bees after a pot of honey! Family think they deserve a share, so they get first in line. As for being poor and only having a handful of rice and beans, you only have to compare with the Chinese to see that the work ethic in Brazil is the scam ethic. It starts at the top and goes all the way to the bottom. In my five years here I have learned to be tight-fisted, or mao de vaca, as they call it here, and I find that people generally respect that, and tell me that it is the only way to behave with money here. As for class divisions, I think that is an illusion. Some of the most honest and straightforward Brasileiros that I have met are downright poor, while the Vereadores, Dentistas, Dotores Particular, etc etc, just have a more charmingly educated way of scamming your cash! Good luck Irish Lass and remember to live and learn! |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 16:46
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This isn't a work ethic issue, this is a typical issue around the world in many poor places. US and Europeans alike consider honest = trust, but that isn't true. In many places, honesty isn't the same as trust. You'll trust your family not to put you in harms way, but not necessarily be truthful about the their actual intentions. It's a very difficult concept to accept and understand for most. There is a study done on productivity and honesty. The higher the honest index in a country the better productivity that country has. Which makes sense, if you can't do business in a relatively quick and fast manner, then you're not very productive. If you're running a business and every customer is coming up with a new scam, you're spending all your time figuring out what is a scam and what is legitimate. Can you trust your employees to keep working hard when you leave the office for lunch? It really starts to diminish productivity. It takes time to build up the skills necessary to get around these problems. Just ignoring them is going to lead to tension and problems. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: irishlass
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 17:21
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Suzaries, yes, I am out of Brazil and totally euphoric!
Sorry to ehar you had similar problems.
To everyone that posted supportive messages, thank you!
And to anyone who had been concerned due to my post, all I say is be cautious there and don't trust anyone.And learn the language. Even though I speak fluent portuguese I still had a hard time, I cannot imagine how tough it must be fore those who don't.
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Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 18:31
| How strange ... I started a similar Topic about five years ago, under a different username, and was run off this Forum ... |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 21:45
Yes, Brazil! Love it or leave it! Got it, gringo? 
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Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 21:54
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Hahahaha!... If you're not coping a solid bank-roll then you'll end up being a hater, mad at life cause you're ignorant to realize you're mad at yourself. From my experience in Brazil, I feel lucky to say the least. Just hustle hard, get your grind on and you'll find happiness! A proper plan and method of execution should be a fair start, good luck if you return. |
Posted By: Twirly
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 22:41
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The more time I live here the harder it gets.
It can be little things....like a badly engineered frecking support column at metro Paça de Se that makes people walk around unnecessarily to get to the blue line. I see so much incompetence/lazy people and lack of professionalism by people who are and should be responsible that it daunts me. Then I read some local online newspapers from Norway/Sweden and see the same shait there. No way I'm going back...at least not now. |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 22:42
are you 12? ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 23:08
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Ya it's funny to notice the perfections of your home country and have plenty of reasons and things complain about no matter how you live. I find brazil exciting and knowing that a person with a lambo going to see tony robbins speak on how to improve your life makes me shake my head! haha.. @hpeak why do you prefer to go personal all the time? Please elaborate your concerns..
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Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 23:13
Was just kidding with you man (don't think you are 12), your writing style makes me think you are very young and everything with you is about money. so, do tell, how old are you? ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 23:29
Same here, Twirly. Patience is wearing thinner and thinner as years go by. But, I think we have to question ourselves is it Brazil, or is it just us getting old...
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Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 01 September 2011 at 23:30
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Well writing in my social time going on facebook, twitter and the likes of all other addictive networks. The generation of language used is ever growing like an organ of the body; generation gap perhaps? I can put aside the none sense and increase my efforts in communcating with the "less gangster" haha.. jk I am 24... Regarding money I can simply say its requirement is important and focus is necessary to see how much you have and or will earn in the future. Some values I hold are simple, but I do come from a "solid" backround and I hope to enjoy that in my future. Both through my own hard work and through some support networks be it family or friends! |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 00:26
| B-Lifestyle - You are 24 years old ? |
Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 03:01
| HAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 06:43
Oh lord, I am 29....I hope that doesn't count as another generation (Kids today...) I would just cation you against the belief that money leads to happiness (not saying that you have this) but some of your posts lead me to believe that you think this is true. And I like nice things as well, money is not bad don't get me wrong. But I know how to be happy with little and I know how to be happy with more. But it was never the amount of money that made me feel good or bad ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: nikkij12185
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 13:05
Unless some catastrophic generation altering event happened between 1986 and 1987, it isn't a generation gap. Unfortunately, some well-off 20somethings (including even 29year olds), depsite their "solid" backgrounds, find the need to speak like they are bros from the hood. You see it in Brazil too. They walk around saying "mano," "ta ligado?", etc. etc. etc. (I'd expand the list, but I'm not 100% fluent in playboyese) While you are 100% right, having money and either bragging about it or pretending you are too cool to care about money (usually alternating between the two) is what defines who the playboy is. I'm not really sure what the cure is (or if there is one) but there is no use trying to convince them they aren't right. |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 15:50
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Ladies & Gentlemen - Without going in to details, because I want to remain a valued member of this wonderful Forum .... However, Esprit's constant caddy attacks and put downs to myself and others have not gone unnoticed. A formal complaint was made to this Forum's Moderator.
Have a great day, everyone.
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Posted By: man of leisure
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 17:04
| I think the concept of love it or leave is ridiculous. This country has serious problems and non-Brazilians are entitled to complain about those issues, as we do also with the problems in our previous homes where the majority of problems are exactly the same as here but are perhaps dealt with in a more expedient way. Yelling 'if you don't like it, go back to your home country' at me when I complain about the cars parked on the pavement is pathetic and has absolutely no validity, any more than it would if a gringo came out the bathroom in a Brazilian restaurant and told the manager that there was no toilet paper in the booths. Can you imagine being told this in response; what is the difference? Making a complaint about blatant wrong-doing and expecting it to be addressed is not a cultural slur! |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 17:51
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The only serios problem that Brazil is facing is the non-brazilians whining about problems in Brazil.
If gringoes are not accostomed to carrying around toilet paper or foregoing the use thereof, then the best they can do is to go where they can have unobstructed access to this non-essential hygiene item (by Brazilian standards). When in Brazil do as Brazilians.... Hold it or discreetly borrow some napkins from the table. 
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Posted By: freeek
Date Posted: 02 September 2011 at 19:53
| I never lived here on land much as am working in Oil n gas sector but overtime i decided to start something here.Made a contact in salvador and had plans to open a company here in partnership.I wanted to open a mega hair business.Just before starting the paper work my contact told me she got a loan of 2000 reals on her head and cannot start anything new until this is cleared.That was it.I was almost robbed on the island of itaparcia.I moved out of her home and went back to collect my charger which i had forget while moving out and found her smoking pot with a weird looking man.In my words am happy am out and safe.Just depends on your luck what you gonna encounter. |
Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 03 September 2011 at 12:27
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What a cry baby.... Anyway the need, love, and or desperation of money is not the actual point, I think it's more as some say, your happiness. Which would include the lifestyle you live and not being judged by your possessions or objectives, the subject is to enjoy your life. And to remain focused on moving forward in the direction your happiness acts its pursuits. Playboy? C'mon.... I speak for myself. Eat incredible food, have nice things, and enjoy every moment you can. If that makes me who I am, so be it. |
Posted By: incliner
Date Posted: 04 September 2011 at 17:57
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Hi all, I am following the website for a while, as my wife is Brazilian and we are always considering the possibility of moving to Brazil.
I have made my impressions based on the few stays, of which longest one was 5 months, other 4 and so on... I have been exposed to, as I believe, reasonably realistic picture of Brazil, having in mind that my wife's family and friends are either upper or stronger middle class, I do speak almost fluent Portuguese... I guess none or very little of us was really keen on touring favelas during the night to get the complete one... As an European, I believe that Brazil is getting in average very good immigration (I will not count Italian terrorists, crem de la crem of worldwide thiefs etc), opposite to one we are getting here... Meaning, 100% of immigration I met in Brazil are well educated, usually recognized professionals in their fields, with high employment potential, even if it is English teacher only (or for start). In one word, people will mostly bring something good and these people have huge potential to impact the local community in a good way. I believe it can be seen in big companies where you have managers from outside blending the results and still not trying to switch Brazilians to robots. We, on the other hand, would usually get poorly educated or ones without a lot of perspective, prone to criminal or social system abuse when realizing that things are not as shiny as they look on TV. Even though someone will say they do the jobs we do not want, I still consider it bad, as in general immigration has very little impact on overall progress and not to mention that there are serious cultural differences, again causing many bad things. I agree with ones who claim that you shouldn't try to change Brazil. Simply because it is a waste of time - you can't combine natural beauty, excellent weather, relaxed lifestyle and general friendliness with German efficiency. There are cultures in the world, matter of fact most of European ones, that will make you feel unwelcome when you arrive, which is not case in Brazil. On the other hand, they will most probably not do everything they can to screw you up on every step  ...
I guess my point is - make a research. This is the era where Google offers universal truth (I am talking symbolically, of course )  , so I believe you should make an educated decision even to go for a vacation somewhere, not to mention when you decide to live in another country / continent... And if you have money to move to Brazil, let's face it, you could move almost everywhere, having in mind the expensive real estate, enormous taxes, cars that are 4 times more expensive than anywhere else and so on... I would personally move to almost all countries I ever visited based on the feeling I had as tourist, but.. You get the point...
Fact is that some of us will see Brazil's growing economic power and want the piece of that cake for ourselves, forgetting that different rules apply. Being REALLY adoptable is, by my opinion, key for success in Brazil, because even though there are plenty of minuses, life is just so intense and amazing, kind you will rarely find somewhere else, with all its positive and negative side...
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Posted By: EuSouCanadense
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 01:14
This video makes me laugh, and it seems appropriate here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2p5svFJ9cQ - First World Problems |
Posted By: GreatBallsoFire
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 01:24
Right some, so three or four like living in Brazil. The vast majority crash and burn and are quite happy to leave on a jet plane. The longer you stay, the more likely you will be scammed and raped at the labor court. If you marry into a family be careful. The family members are often the worst offenders.
------------- Simia quam similis, turpissimus bestia nobis. Oi amigo, pode trazer a saideira? |
Posted By: AcesHigh
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 11:53
not all gringos come from the same country (if we are using the gringo definition in Brazil of course... in the rest of latin america, gringos are all americans) not all gringos live in the same places of Brazil not all gringos had the same life experiences they are not the same person. to each his own. Its quite normal people will have different experiences, some good, some bad. not all immigrants to the US love it there too. a valid topic, still, its only a personal experience. |
Posted By: AcesHigh
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 12:00
true, but far from being a brazilian problem. I have seen many americans displaying the same attitude(love it or leave) towards foreigners living in the US. |
Posted By: AcesHigh
Date Posted: 12 September 2011 at 12:06
thats quite the nonsense. Thats because all immigrants you came in contact with are other europeans or americans. Obviously, poor europeans or americans wouldnt immigrate to a 3d world country. but these people you met are a small fraction of immigration to Brazil. By far, most immigrants to Brazil come from other latin american countries (specially bolivians), there are also plenty of africans and many chinese. Take a tour at 25 de Março in São Paulo, and you will meet more poor chinese immigrants in one street than the whole collective of european/american immigrants in the whole Brazil. |
Posted By: incliner
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 04:48
| I do stand corrected for that... I witnessed this while waiting for visa extension once in Federal Police. |
Posted By: AcesHigh
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 13:05
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now, I cant affirm that, but I suppose most of the expat community you guys came in contact with while in Brazil is a small universe of english speakers in Brazil, maybe with the addition of some northern europeans.
portuguese and spaniard expats, maybe italians as well, are probably a fraction of the people that you guys get to know in expat meetings, while in truth there are many more of them than english speakers (americans, canadians, brits, autralians) plus nord europeans. from Wikipedia "Mais recentemente, a partir da década de 1970, vê-se um razoável crescimento na entrada de imigrantes no Brasil, vindos principalmente da Coréia do Sul, China, Bolívia, Peru, Paraguai e de países africanos" there is an estimate 600 thousand illegal immigrants in Brazil. Most, are from the countries listed above (S.Korea, China, Bolivia, Peru, Paraguay and several african countries) According to some sources, there are over 200 thousand bolivians in São Paulo alone (illegals). |
Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 13 September 2011 at 13:39
It's not just recently or overall it's just simply always, immigrants have been entering and "trying" to gain entrance into countries with better economic stability. They're just seeking out life quality improvement and if it's a neighboring country or across the world, they set out in search of it. It's really no surprise and needless to say it's going to continue forever. If one were to assume it's only english speakers, wtf are you smoking? You're right in mentioning it's a probable assumption being a "small universe". How would one gather the knowledge of a group of people they're is no reason to associate in or around? |
Posted By: incliner
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 11:22
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When it comes to people who are just crossing the border, we sometimes do not count them as immigration... As my grandfather uses to say, if you can reach a place on a donkey, you didn't travel..
Of course that hundreds of thousands especially illegal immigrants can't do any good, question is what is their impact on the country? There is an example of England, where you have Polish/Romanian/etc. invasion... Not necessarily all Polish people going there are average or below educated, quite contrary, but the point is they come to London (extremely expensive), 20 of them rent a house and than, sharing expenses, they can accept to work for money that is few times lesser than the one average Joe would work for... Which leaves Joe in a very bad position when it comes to his basic needs, mortgage, car lease, kids education... That is the type of devastating immigration. What I had in mind posting the first post is: if people I met get the chance to pass 15% of the knowledge they have to young Brazilian managers, lawyers, students etc, than Brazil is going to profit in the most important field: brain import. Because, if here I have to fight with someone who is ready to reduce the price of my work for 60% just on the account of the fact that they are ready to live crappy life in order to even get that much, choice is simple - I'll go somewhere where I can get the same or more than that and be respected for the knowledge and experience I am bringing. The fact of Bolivians, Peruvians and so on coming such huge numbers does not affect Sao Paulo, for example, more or less than hordes of "homemade-bolsa-familia-I-don't-really-wanna-work-when-I-can-get-money-for-free". I hate being politically correct and I believe they would resolve much more issuer if they found the way to eradicate internal migrations, brought only to vote for certain political options... But that would require political will and as long politicians live surrounded with "segurancas" and commute with helicopters, using fore mentioned resources to visit favelas before elections, that will will not exist... There is plenty examples in Germany, Netherlands and Northern Europe where there were solutions found for repatriation of those that generally did not manage to be come productive part of the society to their respective countries and it worked pretty much well. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 14 September 2011 at 11:50
They are mostly held under subhuman, slavelike situations and they are the prime reason for the "anistia" every ten years.
Of course it does, they work for half a minimum wage and take up jobs that could be done by unschooled brazilian workers.
In the netherlands we gave them "oprot premies", but that doesn't get them out. Besides, in the seventies we asked them to come over, as there was a lack of unschoold workers to wash dishes and clean the street. I don't see how they succeeded in repatriating those. They still live there, on welfare. |
Posted By: larry123
Date Posted: 15 September 2011 at 17:14
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All of you guys are correct. It's interesting though because I've seen so called middle class brazilian families fleece and suck off each other.
I plan on retiring to Brazil in about 4-5 years but will only stay in the country 2-4 months out of the year and keep my home in the U.S. I know however to avoid any commercial enterprise in Brazil . Unfortunately, it's still a third world country and has a long way to go developmentally even though the U.S and Europe are both bankrupt by any rational accounting standards.
I empatize with your financial/business loss. But I'm confident you will recover twicefold.
Regards,
Larry  ------------- larry 123 |
Posted By: curzpemmel
Date Posted: 16 September 2011 at 23:53
| I was just talking about that today! I can feel your pain!! |
Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 17 September 2011 at 14:12
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Great thread and very informative posts. And although I prefer Brasil ... I think best bang for your buck might be in Latin countries around Brasil. Peru and Colombia to name two ... Depends on what you want.
Brasil seems like a hard bargain these days ...
Have A Wonderful Weekend Everyone.
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Posted By: AcesHigh
Date Posted: 21 September 2011 at 16:24
dont know what you are saying. I said some people HERE are not thinking of all the immigrants in Brazi. They come in contact with a small number of expats, most of them englsh speakers, and they never realize there are millions of other immigrants... from poor countries, and who dont speak english. |
Posted By: larry123
Date Posted: 14 November 2011 at 12:23
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Dear Irishlass:
The cultural differences are indeed vast. I wish things might have turned out better for you.
My approach to Brazil is to visit for maybe 3-4 months at a time and then leave. It's not a place I would live permantley . And you're right, one has to watch in-laws and extended family. I respond to any sob story with a resounding "NAO".
Good luck,
Larry ------------- larry 123 |
Posted By: expt2233
Date Posted: 14 November 2011 at 23:43
12 months? Be happy you didn't waste almost 4 years. That's what I've done, insisting endlessly that it was just 'a few people' who were closed-minded and xenophobic. Go home, develop your own country. 
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Posted By: expt2233
Date Posted: 15 November 2011 at 00:06
Really? Can you tell me where and when he is going to speak. I don't have a lambo but I'm all ears.
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Posted By: expt2233
Date Posted: 15 November 2011 at 00:12
Sven, this is a really good point. So, I guess my R$850 makes me middle class, heck, I don't even have any dependents. This is a much discussed issue in the US right now. Who is middle class? All I know is with R$850 I can barely pay rent, eat and pay to see a movie once a month. But it's great that I'll be able to depend on the public education system to give my kids a fighting chance at a better life!! |
Posted By: expt2233
Date Posted: 15 November 2011 at 22:17
Anistia's purpose is to collect taxes, no more, no less. I think anistia is fantastic, from a moral standpoint. But the motivations behind it are purely economic. Does Brazil punish companies for hiring illegals? |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 16 November 2011 at 04:57
| No it isn't. The purpose of anistia is so that many illegal Paraguayan, Bolivian and columbian immigrants can free themselves from the slave like conditions they often live in. |
Posted By: expt2233
Date Posted: 16 November 2011 at 14:12
Haha. If that were true then it would be a lot easier to get it. To actually qualify you have to prove your income. Last time I checked most illiterate slave-like immigrants cannot do that. When I was at the PF there was a Colombian can collector who was abused by the officer who dealt with him. He wasn't helped in any way, was yelled at for asking too many questions. If you cannot prove your income (as most slave-like immigrants cannot) you aren't even guaranteed amnesty. Besides the fact that it's impossible to even go through the process, practically speaking if you are poor. The guy I met had to take a bus that cost R$70, take a day off collecting cans, etc. All very tough for him. If this was TRULY for human and civil rights they would have made income no part of it and made it much easier. This law was passed so gringos who make a living and can prove it can pay taxes! |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 16 November 2011 at 14:35
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Gringos are smart enough to avoid taxes in most cases. They've come from systems that are far more fool proof and harder to dodge. Much like the super rich in the US can dodge taxes, the median income people who are living in Brazil have the intelligence to do the basics of tax dodging. The law was likely to protect the poor but had holes in it, like most good ideas it falls short. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 19 November 2011 at 08:09
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we are not welcome???? really never had that problem...
not sure what the o/p was doing here... opening a business in the Amazon... and then not expecting for people to see her/him as rich???
this fourm puzzles me more day by day!
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Posted By: Kurtz
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 01:01
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way to much anger on this forum. you guys chose to the expat life, and you're attacking each other. where's the forum owner? where's the intermediary? does the moderator respect himself? why doesn't he or she take action? i lurked a long time before joining. i think some of you are unhappy in brasil. some of you can't go back home. some of you involved in a unhealthy relationships, etc. |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 02:50
| Yeah... we are a mess. But what'd you expect from a bunch of international misfits? Who in the right mind would voluntarily settle down in Brazil? |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 07:41
Every law comes with a preamble, this one did too, it stated the "humanitarian" reasons. Besides, the income must only be proven when the temp registry is to be made permanent, after 2 years. |
Posted By: angrygreenfrogs
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 08:52
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Arguing aside, really interesting thread.. good to know you're not alone on those days when things are bad here... like anything there's no black and white.. let's be honest, there's good people here and bad, just like anywhere.
Unfortunately, however, just due to the social economic circumstances of Brazil, I'd say the guy who said he only hangs out with middle class types with degrees is somewhat right if you want to make a general rule. First time I ever went to a home churrasco was with a bunch of people who worked at a hotel with a friend of mine, and in a group of only 8 people, someone stole my camera (it was only $200USD, but I checked mercadolivre and apparently goes for R$1200 here, so I can see why). Since then I've been a lot more careful about who I hang out with, and frankly yeah I've found those with college degrees to generally be less likely to take advantage of me (even in terms of they offer to buy the next round instead of casually trying to get you to pay). |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 08:55
I suppose that could happen anywhere in the world. |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 11:07
| My experience with lower classes in Brazil is mostly of scurpulous honesty, literally to a centavo. The freeloaders of middle to upper middle classes are a whole other story. The elites are just obnoxious and condesending though in a subtle way. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 11:12
Although I don't like generalizations, this one seems to the point. |
Posted By: GreatBallsoFire
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 12:19
------------- Simia quam similis, turpissimus bestia nobis. Oi amigo, pode trazer a saideira? |
Posted By: BorisG
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 20:30
| I am not trying to ideialize the poor, far from it. But for the record (I´ve had more then a few dates in labor court). Most of the lies and the fat tail stories are inspired, doctored, and pushed by the lawyers. |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 20:36
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This is the crap that business owners deal with in the US and anywhere else in the world. Same with insurance companies and claims. It's just that "normal" people don't usually get hit by it, because they're not employers for the most part. Some small businesses are better than others, but everyone has a horrid story of some employee working for someone else, no matter what the country is. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: larry123
Date Posted: 22 November 2011 at 22:23
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Excuse me folks..... but i need a point of clarification. When you refer to "Labor Court" in Brazil, it kind of sounds like a judicial proceeding where empoyees take an employer or former employer to court for wages the employee is alleging they're owed. Is that correct. In other words, the employee is sueing for back wages. Is that correct.
Is this a common thing in Brazil. It can open open up a "Pandora's Box" since many middle and upper class Brazilians hire maids and domestic workers. This is definitely a cottage industry for attorneys.
Larry ------------- larry 123 |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 05:34
| Yes Larry that is exactly it. However, the "empregada domestica" has very little rights, so her claims are generally difficult. Different from the employee that claims he customarilly worked 2 hours extra per day. Unless the company can prove he didn't he's likely to win. |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 13:06
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Basically it comes down to wealthier people and businesses normally deal with these things and usually out of site. Just the notion that they're doing something bad is bad for business so they hide it as well. Normally, a person wouldn't have any experience dealing with this. However in a country where you can hire people for so little, more people do it and more people who are unaccustomed to dealing with these situations find themselves in court and really gripping about it. Everyone learns, I haven't seen someone post on here "I was sued AGAIN for doing this". They seem to lose once, learn the system and either accept it and work within the systems rules or leave it. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 13:31
You'd be amazed however, how many brazilian companies re unwilling to learn. They try to stiff their workers over and over again. They stiff them when they hire them, they try to stiff them by not paying overtime and it goes on and on. Rio Capital has some 90 varas de trabalho who do some 60 audiencias daily (including conciliação), yet it takes 9 months from the moment you file suit to have your day in court. |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 13:36
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Some companies don't learn, because for them it's cheaper to do it this way, or they've found a system that works for them. Rip off the workers, get sued, pay them back, pay works out correctly in the end. There are a lot of people who simply succeed in business even with their incompetence just because the business makes so much money. I'm going to say that most people sued once, learn and don't leave themselves open to the same lawsuit in the future -- perhaps some OTHER loophole they miss, but they won't repeat what they just did. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 14:21
| Oh yes they do. I have worked for several companies that hire employees as "terceirizado". It's illegal, TST has had a sumula about this for years, but still, they hire that way. They try in many ways to circumvent this, make them sign contracts stating that "no employee relation shall exist". It's a slam dunk, the employee can't loose. Its a great savings account as a 50% fine has to be payed. But they keep on trying. |
Posted By: jkennedy
Date Posted: 23 November 2011 at 14:36
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If they hired legally, paid legal wages how many cases would they lose during the year just due to people taking advantage of that system. Not all employees might sue, thereby allowing them to keep some of those wages owed. They could be investing that money and earning returns on it as well. Lots of financial factors could be playing into that. Usually a business runs the numbers. It's like rebates on products in the US. Buy a product for $20, mail in rebate for $20, FREE!. But they know a certain number won't mail in, and the numbers work out for them. Better than putting it on sale and giving everyone a small percentage off. Clearly the deal looks bad on paper, but in the books it might just work out. ------------- There is just so much to do in Brazil, and so little time to do it all! Planning my next http://www.braziltravelbuddy.com/Curitib/City - Brazil Vacation and the countdown has started! |