A work problem...
Printed From: Gringoes.com
Category: Brazil
Forum Name: Finding Work
Forum Discription: Seeking and offering jobs in Brazil
URL: http://www.gringoes.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10891
Printed Date: 21 May 2013 at 13:20
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 8.05a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: A work problem...
Posted By: scottyh
Subject: A work problem...
Date Posted: 19 November 2010 at 20:47
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I have been working legally in Brazil since March. This Xmas I am returning to the UK for a 3 week holiday. The flights were booked previously and can´t be changed now. The school, where I teach English, will be closed for 11 of these days. However, the company have decided that they cannot simply grant me this time off, 12 working days, even as unpaid leave. And, as I havent worked a full 12 months I am not entitled to any holidays.
Therefore, they have suggested that they sack me and in January I could possibly be reinstated (though they can´t promise this). Of course in this situation I would be starting all over again with the company and I would have to work for another 12 months before being entitled to any paid holidays!
It all seems a bit dramatic. I enjoy working here and, as their native speaker, I teach many of their advanced / VIP classes (the big payers). I have also listened to the marketing guys using me as a sales point. Employing and training another person would cost money and take longer than the 12 days that I will be away for!
So, if I agree to this would my ´sacking´ be on my carteria? I have never been sacked in my life and don´t really want such a thing showing on the 1st page of my work record in Brazil!
I have tried to negotiate and I have even offered to bring them back lots of English books I have at home, but they didn´t budge.
Any suggestions?
Part of me feels like I should just except their idea... another part of me wants to tell them to stuff the job; go private and take some of their / my students with me!
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Replies:
Posted By: MovingSoon
Date Posted: 19 November 2010 at 21:18
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I don't think I personally would take a chance on being sacked and rehired. A majority of the airlines will let you use a ticket within a year, sometimes for a small charge. To keep my job, I think I would just keep working and forget about the Christmas holiday.... a job is more important than seeing family for a few months... ------------- Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave with a well preserved body, but to skid in sideways at a high rate of speed, drink in one hand, totally worn out shouting, "Whoa, what a ride"! |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 19 November 2010 at 21:33
Is the pay worth staying with the company? Can you make the same/more teaching on your own? I wouldn't take the students. When I quit my job at the school I was working at I actually turned students down that wanted to continue with me. Their are enough people in Brazil that want to learn English, I would fly solo ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Brazillifestyle
Date Posted: 19 November 2010 at 21:39
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ya dude it's brazil vs home.. f**k home you love brazil more.. So just miss a christmas it won't kill you.. It's a headache teaching privately on your own unless you've actually aquired enough clients and enjoy running around on the bus all day.. I would stay working and just go another time and pay the small fee, you can easily re-use your ticket it's not impossible.. Getting rehired is not worth the risk, especially seeing as you're working legally lol..
dont' be a pussy remember that..
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Posted By: HalfGringa
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 05:28
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Yes, the sacking will be on your carteira. The main point is if they are going to fire you Demitido Com Justa Causa or Sem Justa Causa. Sem Justa Causa (No just cause) means they have to pay you severance. Com Justa Causa is that you gave them reason to sack you (in this case abandonment of the job). They seem very inflexible so it's probably Com Justa Causa - which means you get only what is your by right (rest of the month and relative part of your 13o salário). If they're unflexible to that point, I suggest you give your 1 month aviso prévio, write a carta de demissão and leave. You wont get more money out of them anyway and it looks better on your carteira. ALl this is of course, if you decide your visit back home is more important than your job. A tip for everyone else: find out what your company's X-mas leave is like before you book plane tickets. |
Posted By: jubilee6936
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 08:32
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Why get sacked, why not resign. If you are good at what you do they will employ you immediately on return. I am sure your services are more important to them and when you tell them you are going to resign, I am sure they will be more co-operative. ------------- There's an angel standing in the sun. |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 08:57
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No I really need to go home. My mother has been sick and we have arranged a party to celebrate our wedding. Also I need to organise many things I didnt do before I left before. I have been out of the UK for nearly a year and never thought I would be moving here forever when I left.
I dont understand the sack / resign thing... My wife says I can ask them to sack me which is different to them just sacking me... Surely this is just resigning? To me sacking someone is because they are incompetent!
The pay isnt great I just feel comfortable here... I am a trained teacher so I Guess I could find something else in the future.
The compnay will do okay out of this though. They wont need to pay me over Xmas and New Yearand in January they can re-hire me if need be and of course they don´t need to give me any other paid holidays for another year...
Just a bit annoyed about how much work I have done for them and the way they use me as their native expert, yet they cannot be flexible for 12 unpaid days...
well best go to teach my advance class that they lumber me with every week ...
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 09:49
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1) did you already have the tickets before they hired you? If so, they can not sack you for justa causa if you told them when they hired you because then the new beforehand and acquiesced.
2) If they sack you (justa causa) they can´t rehire you in january. That would be a fraud and would grant you right to the month´s pay and it would count towards the 12 months for your holidays. By the way, this sacking for justa causa would not be on your carteira, just that they´d sack you, not why. 3) if they sack you without justa cause, you´d either have to work for 30 more days or they should pay you without you working there (aviso prévio) which is your legal right. 4) if you quit in december, the aviso prévio rule also applies and you´d have to work for another month or they have to pay the month without you working In cases 3 & 4, if they decide you have to work the 30 days and you don´t show up they can still sack you for justa causa. Also, in both these cases you´d have the right to recieve the holiday payment proporcionally. Under Brazilian law, even after the 12 months, it is the employer that decides when the empoyee can go on holiday. You can ask for a specific period, but the are not obliged to grant you that period. They don´t have to be flexible as that would not be good for business. Schools and university usually grant holidays when they are closed anyway. Hotels usually off season. Working in Brazil you have to live with that. You´d have to point them to art 130,II which states that the 11 faltas you have will only allow you 24 days of holidays. That could be of interest to them. What your wife mentions is another fraud. If people quit and the have a good relationship with their employer they´ll ask them to sack them in order to be able to get their FGTS. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: HalfGringa
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 12:10
Are you talking to RH about this or the owner/manager of the company? Human Resources in Brazil is usually really inflexible and they abide by all sorts of rules because our labour laws suck. If you can, try talking directly with the owner. 12 days is not that much and can sometimes be negotiated. Suggest taking off those 12 days from your paid holidays, as mentioned by Sven. The owner might be more flexible. |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 12:22
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It is the owner of the school who is being difficult. I have offered to use holidays in lieu and / or take the 12 days without pay but she insists that they sack me / or I resign. Then, in January if they need teachers (which is likely) then they can reinstate me but I will be starting as a new employee from day 1! At this rate it would be jan 2012 before I would be entitled to any paid leave!
my ticket expires in january so it can´t really be changed again!
I think I will resign and offer to work until Dec 16th my departure date...
When I return I wil lseek more private work and apply at other places. If this doesnt go well I will offer to return with my tail between my legs...
I just calculated that by moving around some days on a rota with have for free Saturdays then it would be just 11 days!!!
Grant 11 days unpaid leave to a native speaker who brings in revenue or dismiss them and spend time and money training and advertising for new teachers who sometimes aren´t up to the task!
How do some of these places make money?
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 13:09
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"I think I will resign and offer to work until Dec 16th my departure date.."
Monday is the 22nd. If they require so, you must work until the 22nd. If you don't, the can sack you anyway. During aviso previo, they can sack you for justa causa! If they don't want you to work they have to pay you the indemnization of one month anyway it's the law. The only way way this will work is they sack you for justa causa, which they can only do if you are absent without leave and not because you say you will be absent without leave. By using the law you may make them realize that it is the cheapest option for them to just let you go, and let you use 11 days of your ferias. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 17:20
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okay - thanks for this...
my supervisor is being helpful says it is better for me if they sack me. However, I just dont like the idea of being sacked for nay reason! Also the idea of this on my record... They seemed to be more open to negotiation today - my supervisor said they dont want to let me go but have no other option?? It all seems a big game somehow? TBH - I am not trying to get one over on them and I am not too concerned about money just want to have a job to return to without any hassle... I dont know why I cant just take holidays in lieu of the 30 days I would get in May? |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 17:25
| by the way - I already received the 13th salary well the 5 months I was entitled to! I have suggested that they let me take the 12 days as unpaid leave but dont sack me and I keep my rights for future paid leave... In return I will work for one week for free on my return... If they don't accept this then no more begging!! I will just resign!! |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 20 November 2010 at 17:52
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As i said if you resign you must work for at least another month. If you don't they can sack you anyway ! ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: jubilee6936
Date Posted: 21 November 2010 at 04:05
A friend of mine had a large construction project in Brazil for about 10 years. I asked him about Brazilian mentality, for when I went to visit. His reply to me was that Brazilians do not like to lose. He had to word things very carefully when he needed things doing, just to pander to their 'winning' mentality. Perhaps this will explain your 'game' quote.
Good luck with your dealings, hope it all works out in the end. ------------- There's an angel standing in the sun. |
Posted By: nikkij12185
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 10:34
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Can you be sick for some of the time? If not, just skip out those days. "Abandono de emprego" is 30 without justification, more than the 12 days youre planning. They can not pay you for the days you don't work but they shouldn't be able to fire you (com justa causa) for this. If you are as important as you say you are to them, then they shouldn't fire you at all and you won't mess up your year or vacation. Stop trying to negotiate and just go. Worse that could happen is they get angry and fire you sem justa causa because of this, which from what you say would cost them more. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 11:32
Abandono de emprego has no set time frame. It can be as short as one day. Abandono de emprego requires the employer to proof that the employee did not intend to come back to work (subjective element). If the subjective element is not met, than the employer must proof absence for 30 days or more. So if they fire him after the 12 days absent, they'll have to pay him the month of aviso prévio, as they have to if he resigns. This is a loose loose situation for the school. It's best if they simply let him go on his holidays. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 11:53
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i say you call the bluff. you're ready to quit, so why not go out with a bang? go to the owner and say "you know, i really don't understand how this works, this justa causa/SJC business. i'm just a big dumb gringo. But even I can tell there's something wrong here. So how about we go down to the tribunal and let them help us figure this out? I called this morning and talked to Fulano there who said we should come on down." and then you either do that, or you have your demands ready, since either you'll have the owner on his knees, or with you walking away daring him to come after you. then, look around. if he's bringing in clients based on your merits, and jerking you around, you should be able to get your own clients at the prices they're paying him. A 13th salary is nice and all, but what else do you get? When your salary goes from the 25/hour they so generously pay you to the 75/hour the students pay, you'll feel a lot better. And as a last thing, if I decided to stay til my departure, I'd make sure I gave blood one day (they are required to give you at least 1/2 day off of work) and then have some mysterious stomach illness that will require some days off and doctors' notes. Two can play at this game. ------------- |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 12:00
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It's definately a bluf. I guess they think he might not know about the aviso prévia and what does and does not count as justa causa. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 22 November 2010 at 14:22
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one more thing, scottyh- teachers move around a lot here. i don't think you should worry too much about the lily-white character of your CTPS. All professionals move around here a lot more than I as a north american am used to- it's part of the game. if you have good abilities and can attract clients, you will be quickly snapped up by someone else. I don't know what your town is like, but here all the good teachers know each other- we've all rubbed elbows from time to time, i get their castoffs, they get mine, we say hi when we're waiting for our in-company clients, everyone moves around as necessary. It's not a spot on your character. Hell, most of my clients (engineers, lawyers) would drop everything and go to a different company if they got a better deal (and often do!). ------------- |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 12:22
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Scotty, maybe you should bring Sven to negotiate on your behalf ...
------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 16:31
| I think Id win! |
Posted By: Ex Pat
Date Posted: 23 November 2010 at 18:00
| I would fly solo and go back home because in my view family is very important. |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 24 November 2010 at 20:36
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yes at this moment and time family is important!
With reference to previous posts... How do I get taken seriously as an English teacher here and not just viewed as another gringo that will leave in 3 months?
I have a teaching degree, 5 years teaching experience in England and 2 years teaching experience at a bi-lingual school in Spain...
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 06:37
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Experiente in brazil and knowing people. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 08:41
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i would say experience, knowing what you're doing, how to approach common problems, and professionality. Also, if you don't know how to approach specific issues, knowing where to find answers and further resources. When I worked with the schools I quickly noticed that my students were the ones that nobody else knew how to handle- they had learning challenges, personality challenges, or goals that others didn't know how to approach. (you know it's bad when your student needs a TOEIC score and nobody else has ever heard of the TOEIC, or even cared enough to do a google search). My experience lets me share with one client what worked and didn't work for others, and saves me from having to careen between one approach and another. Also helpful to establishing reputation- not taking bullcrap excuses and absenteeism. Restricting yourself to the kind of client you enjoy and you get results from. I am limiting myself more to editing and translating these days but do still teach and always have a waiting list- if you're good at what you do, word gets around. It takes a leap of faith to not be dependent on the schools, and I established myself while working for schools, but it's nice to take clients on my own terms, the clients I want, and not the unrealistic ones that I have no chance of success with (for example, in August I had a call from someone who was desperately trying to prepare for a concurso in contabilidade that had an english component. I was able to tell him no, go to a cursinho place, they will help you more. if i were in a school they would have grabbed him and given him a course in conversation, which would have been useless to him and unproductive for both of us). Also coming back to professionality- people here are very jaded by what they've dealt with in their lives (and i live in the south!). I distinctly recall a student telling a coworker when he didn't think i was listening "a minha professora, ela NUNCA atrasa! Credo!" Something so basic and so simple (and to me as a new yorker and tokyoite) as being on time is remarkable. Calling when you say you will, emailing when you offer to, etc, people really notice and remember. Especially when you're dealing with professionals, they remember who tried to screw them on the mensalidade and who was fair, who did what they promised. So basic and so impressive. ------------- |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 09:22
With experience like that why not work at a real international school teaching kids? I have a buddy who does that; he basically travels around the world, one stable job to another. Each job has a contract that both parties agree to. He loves his situation. I am trying to get him to come down here once he leaves Italy. ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 14:15
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Yes, I did that previously in Spain at a British school. However, there is only one international school where I am living now in Brazil and it is American. I sent a CV and had no reply. Normally American international schools want only teachers qualified in America due to the different curriculum etc...
After Xmas I am going to send my CV's to more places and widen my effort to attract more private students etc... |
Posted By: Ex Pat
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 20:24
| Working in Brazil is hard. Especially in Rio or SP. I tried openning a small business and I also looked in to teaching English. That said, if you are working in either SP or Rio and you can earn a living--God Bless You! |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 25 November 2010 at 20:59
| I am not in either of the places... so far with my wife´s income as well we have managed to survive! |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 05:45
this is off the wall, but is there a market for international baccalaureate schools here? (do they exist, and can they give you a job, rather) also there are some franchises that might be worth working for, I know there was talk of opening a Kaplan franchise here a year or so ago, there is already one in Rio, SP, and maybe Campinas? I was talking with the owner about possibilities and then never heard anything again. ------------- |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 10:26
| Where there is money there is a market for such schools... The idea that someone could gain the qualifications and the languages skills required to study at University in Britain or the U.S. still seems very appealing to the upper middle classes! |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 10:53
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But such schools would also need MEC accreditation to have any validity in Brazil. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 15:15
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http://www.ibo.org/country/BR/ not all american. not sure where you are. ------------- |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 26 November 2010 at 19:51
Been following this forum for quite a while and judging from his posts I think he lives in either Olinda or Recife. Am I right, Scotty? ------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: Ex Pat
Date Posted: 27 November 2010 at 16:36
| I cannot imagine working in Brasil as it is so hard to make a living here. If you do, and you make decent coin, God Bless you! |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 27 November 2010 at 17:20
That depends on what you consider decent. I teach English classes and I make more than enough for myself. I think I have far more disposable income here than in the United States. ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 17:02
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^^ I feel exactly the same, hpeak. We're happy with what we've got.
------------- |
Posted By: Ex Pat
Date Posted: 28 November 2010 at 17:07
No offense HPeak13 but it's hard to believe you make more $ in Brasil than in the US. Maybe right now because of the US financial debacle, however over the long haul, you will be worse off in Brasil, financially.
But if you're happier in Brasil - nothing else matters.
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Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 07:48
Money has nothing to do with happiness. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 08:31
I didn't say I make more, I said that I have more disposable income. I think the cost of living here is far less than in the states. I can go and buy veggies, meat, and fruit at a fraction of the cost in the states. I can go to a soccer game for R$45. Try going to a pro game in the states for that cost. (I went to the Cruzeiro vs Vasco game in Rio. It cost R$50 for the bus and R$20 for the ticket) *however, buying electronics, cars, clothing is much more expensive yes I agree there. But, the reason I am happier here is because I get to enjoy life. I am not busting my ass working all day long. I work about 17 hours per week....mostly on tue wed and thu, so basically I have a 3 day work week. ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 08:33
I agree...too many people think there is a correlation between the two ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 09:18
I think you're deluding yourself. I recently did the same weekly shop as I usually do in the UK, in the big supermarket on Volontarios in Botafogo. The bill was 30% higher than usual for virtually identical goods. My Brazilian wife was unimpressed with the prices, and before you ask, there were virtually no imported goods in the trolley: basic stuff from bottles of diet coke to fruit, veg, ice lollies, cheese (not imported), milk, cake, bread, sugar etc.
Propoerty costs in Rio are now stratospheric. A decent 120 square meter apartment in Botofogo is now R$750,000. Friends of mine - a doctor married to a lawyer can't afford to buy! Everything from telephone and internet bills to petrol and airline tickets, from hotels to restaurant bills is way way higher than the States. It's only cheap in Rio if you take the bus everywhere, eat rice and beans and stick to the maracana for your entertainment (not that I haven't enjoyed matches there myself). I love the Rio lifestyle, but to do it with reasonable comfort (I lead a non consumer oriented simple life) is bloody expensive, something experience has demonstrated to me (I pay regular visits to Rio, the last 3 months ago). ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 09:41
wait...things are expensive in Rio?  And I am deluding myself because things where I live aren't expensive? I am just speaking from my experience living in both the US and in Belo Horizonte. That is my experience. Just because it differs from yours, doesn't make it wrong. ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:03
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I only made the reference to Rio following on from your comment about the costs of a visit to a football match in Rio. As for your experience of costs, you’ve talked about some basic foodstuffs, a football ticket and a bus ticket. I have friends from BH and family still there. Their thoughts on costs and my experience when there was that the prices (other than property) were pretty similar to those in Rio. I am curious as to just what kind of lifestyle you lead to experience lower costs than those of the US, which are generally some of the lowest in the world (for goods and services). ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:05
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yes I am in the North-East...
back to the o/p - seems like a stalemate at the moment... very strange day at work Saturday. I dont understand how some people can run a relatively succesful business!!! |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:14
the lifestyle I lead is pretty similar to the states, just that I go out more, and do more with my money. ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:23
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Well that's cleared that one up then ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:30
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I spend less money going out to dinner/bars here than I did in the states. I go out 3 or 4 nights per week. I don't go to the R$75 all you can eat steak houses, but I also don't go to the dirty cup buteco's. We go out in Savassi/ Anchietta 2 nice areas here I play soccer every saturday and then go out with friends at night. we sometimes stay home and cook dinner- usually meat and some veggies (and of course rice and beans) this morning I had a coconut for breakfast.....prolly gonna have an avacado and some beans and rice for lunch. I'll update you on dinner later ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:45
Yeah, pretty much agreed. The difference is in what I don't spend my money on. Not sure what your life was like hpeak, but I know that in the northeastern US, as a professional in a 2-income marriage, i/we spent almost HALF of our salaries on health insurance and car insurance ALONE. The rest was spent on rent that approached 75% of one salary, which even compared to what I spent when i rented in Tokyo is ridiculous. This doesn't include car payments, the myriad of small BS bills that add up to about 1500-month, daycare, etc. I can say I suppose I don't pay for daycare anymore, which was a killer, although i do pay for private school, so it's really no different. But the real albatrosses we wore around our necks were the health insurance costs- when for one family, you are paying so much in insurance that you can't afford the copays, you on the one hand worry til you get sick and on the other hand can't afford to get sick. Here we take care of ourselves well and pay in cash for electives, go public for emergencies. No need to carry an insurance policy that costs $1500/month. We drive crap cars mostly for the low profile but it doesn't hurt that we can fix whatever's wrong with them. No car payment necessary. There may be lots of cheap goods and services available in the US, but for what i did (i directed a non-profit at a very modest salary, my husband was a manager in a factory) we really were just scraping by from paycheck to paycheck. And from what I hear from folks back in the US now, things haven't really improved. There was an interesting podcast on Freakonomics a few weeks ago (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/freakonomics-radio-could-a-lottery-be-the-answer-to-americas-poor-savings-rate/ -- scroll down to Peter Tufano) in which this study was discussed- it's a year old, but talks about how a full half of survey respondents in the US wouldn't be able to come up with $2000 in a month for an emergency. (see http://www.tns-us.com/news/us_consumers_unprepared_for_rainy.php ) It was interesting, and it was certainly familiar. We were one accident, one lost paycheck away from calamity. ------------- |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:50
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oh...and I save 50% of what I make. sure couldn't do that in the USA
------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: zerotres
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:50
Hey Scotty, can I get my books before you leave? Thanks!! |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 10:51
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I must say that every time I visit the States (last time was 18 months ago – SF and NYC) I am amazed at the quality, diversity and price of the food, not to mention the free refills and good service. SP (the city I have lived in the most in Brazil and the one most associated with this site) in contrast has an incredible array of restaurants with often great quality even to rival NYC, but the prices are now stratospheric, even higher than London. I’m not just talking of the top venues in town, I’m referring to any half decent restaurant in the entertainment districts such as Cerqueira Cesar or Itaim Bibi. The prices of food in the supermarkets for entertainment purposes are as I say higher than the US also, and as pre marinated meat is expensive and you need to do more preparation with the food than in the US, you either need to pay a maid to do much of the work for you (adding to the cost) or spend hours in the kitchen. I’m not sure from what you say I can see how your lifestyle makes Brazil cheaper. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:01
i spend less money doing the same sh*t i did in the states=brazil cheaper ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:01
Sounds like you’re comparing apples with pears. Why didn’t you switch to the crap cars in the US and save yourself on the car insurance? In the US you paid for health insurance now you don’t but you could have gone without in the US as well. Seems like the only real difference on a like for like basis is rent. There is a reason NE Brazil is so cheap – lack of demand. There is a reason for lack of demand – there are few well paid jobs up there. In other words you pay less because you earn less. In the US you pay more but earn more. There’s no magic there. In parts of Blackburn in the UK houses are dirt cheap – because there was no demand because there were no jobs. I think if you did your survey in Brazil, you’d find rather a lot of people living hand to mouth. The real question is what opportunities there are for the educated and hard working. In the US you’ll find rather a lot of opportunities, in Brazil not so. And I know where i’d rather start up my own business. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:03
Now I understand why my Brazilian wife is incapable of drawing up and sticking to a comprehensive monthly budget.  ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:05
go on... ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:19
you still have to pay $$$ for liability insurance no matter what you drive. believe me, we drove bangers there too.
with a distinctive lack of emergency care if it were needed, and without the option to pay reasonable rates for services. most clinics will not accept patients without health plans, and if they do the prices are astronomical.
I live in southern Brazil.
I don't think that's in question. The question is how, despite working so hard in the land of streets paved with gold, everyone is still unable to make ends meet.
------------- |
Posted By: hpeak13
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 11:23
|
I
don't think that's in question. The question is how, despite working
so hard in the land of streets paved with gold, everyone is still unable
to make ends meet. +1 ------------- We all have to decide for ourselves how much sin we can live with. -Enoch Nucky Thompson |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 12:19
|
you still have to pay $$$ for liability insurance no matter what you drive. believe me, we drove bangers there too. Have you perchance had rather a few car accidents in your last years of residence in the US (thus driving up your premiums)?
with a distinctive lack of emergency care if it were needed, and without the option to pay reasonable rates for services. most clinics will not accept patients without health plans, and if they do the prices are astronomical. If you turn up at A&E they will keep you alive even in the US! In the UK this isn’t a problem, and with Obama’s new healthcare system presumably this issue has reduced.
I live in southern Brazil. Curitiba is more expensive than the NE, but the higher housing costs again reflect greater amount of jobs, again the proportions of house prices to salaries holds (as it does everywhere on a global basis).
I don't think that's in question. The question is how, despite working so hard in the land of streets paved with gold, everyone is still unable to make ends meet. The answer to that is that every society, even in the land of dreams, has a poor as well as a rich. The question is what opportunities that society provides to move from the former to the latter. No-where offers so many opportunities as the US, whereas few offer as few opportunities as Brazil. Witness the comments of other users recently on this fact.
hey, different strokes Wasn’t that a 1980s sitcom with Gary Coleman?
------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 13:10
I believe the only acceptable answer is "whatchoo talkin bout, willis?" Believe it or not, I've never had an accident (touch wood) and only got my first ticket of my life in blessed Curitiba for running a red light. Liability insurance for cars is ridiculously high in many states. My brother, who drives like a drunken blind man, pays about three times what i did, which i guess is small consolation- i could have paid more. But he mostly pays more for being a young white guy with a red car- just statistical. In fact in his state he can only get insurance through one company, that's mandated to take bad drivers. You have to have liability or you can't drive. And most places in the US have no decent public transportation- if you want to work, you need to drive. It's a catch-22. Yes, supposedly Obama is going to hammer out some kind of health solution. God bless him, with the new congress he's got his work cut out for him. If you showed up at the emergency room when i was there, they'd treat you sure, but you'd get a bill afterwards. My friend owes $20,000 for an emergency room visit, ambulance ride and one weekend in the hospital. She had an Xray, endoscopy, and bloodwork for a chronic condition that got out of control, she passed out and woke up in the hospital, had no choice in the matter. She is going to go bankrupt so that she can default on the bills, which is a hell of a decision to have to make. I worked hard to have good credit, to think of losing it to one car accident made me a wreck. no pun intended. Yes, prices of rentals are lower- we've seen a reduction in our home and business rentals this month, believe it or not. No complaints here. Certainly, Juninho, some people are going to have more success here, whether due to appropriate skill set or connections or just luck. I think the US draws a lot of dreamers who look at other immigrants who "arrived with $20 in my pocket and the clothes on my back" and made good. Some do it, and good for them. But it's not the land of milk and honey, at least that's not how it was for us. Brazil isn't streets paved with gold either. But I really don't think that someone who has skills and determination is automatically screwed here. We work hard and do well, and happiness-sunshine-coconuts-beaches aside, we feel a lot less sense of impending financial doom here than we did in the US (although if i hadn't heard that newscast this morning about inflation i'd be a little happier). Which in the end saves me and my family money on therapy and anti-anxiety drugs. ------------- |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 13:25
|
I must confess that as a Brit I’ve never had to fork out for any health insurance. For all the national Health Service’s faults, the treatment is pretty good on the whole, and the drugs cheap. All my jobs have come with health insurance thrown in as well, not that I really need it. It all sounds rather stressful. You need have no worries about sunshine or beaches in Curitiba though! I’m happy for you that you’ve found a place which suits your family. I just don’t think it’s a great place to try to make it in, due to very low wages, especially for newly qualified graduates. Still it takes all types to make a world and wouldn’t it be a boring place if we all wanted the same thing. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 14:24
|
I sure wouldn't suggest coming here out of the blue without family and contacts to start out, that's for sure. ((You know, I'm feeling a conspicuous absence of trolls and nasty responses lately. Where are the hysterical blathering verbal diarrhea-ing folks? We have Bernanke jokes and nary a self-hating diatribe from he-who-must-not-be-named. Am I in the right place?)) ------------- |
Posted By: nikkij12185
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 14:35
There is one in Curitiba, although the company there focuses more on financial prep (CFA/CFP/CGA certifications). The have branches in Rio, SP and are based out of Londrina |
Posted By: nikkij12185
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 14:45
I grew up in a situation like that and my husband and I didn't want to copy that. Here we have 6months of rent/bills in savings at all times. Most of my friends can't even balance their checkbooks. Over 50% of them are living with mom and dad because 1/3 of their pay goes to health insurance, which is mandatory in Massachusetts,1/3 to paying for their car (which is a necessity because they can't afford to live where there is public transport) and the other 1/3 goes to pay off student loans for the degree they really aren't using. If they want to eat out for lunch or dinner instead of relying on the groceries mom and dad bought, then they put it on their credit card. |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 29 November 2010 at 15:11
|
oh, how could i forget the student loans?? i was lucky, i mostly had grants and was able to pay the loans off by the time i hit 30. ------------- |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 06:27
|
Sadly the UK is going the way of the US and Brazil in loading students up with huge amounts of debt. Most students will never be able to pay off the loans they’ll soon be forced to take out in the UK – up to R$200,000. Count yourself lucky! ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 06:56
|
In Brazil, kids who did all their schooling in public schools have good chances of getting a Bolsa from ProUni. About 600K have a 100% scholarship. Those without the scholarship can get a loan at 3.5% per year. Nothing that can't be payed off. But most kids that get into Universities will be to some extent paid by the parents or work themselves through college.
I know a couple of pro-uni kids, and one that has a Fies loan. The rest either pay themselves or their parents pay for them, either full or to some extent. I don't see where brazil is loading students up with debts like the US. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: nikkij12185
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 10:52
|
Unless you are studying law or medicine in Brazil, the cost of education is relatively low. Pharmacy, one of the most expensive courses, runs about R$700 per month for four years. Starting pay for pharmacists is about R$1500 + benefits. In the US, for most majors, you pay $50,000 a year and graduate earning $25,000 before taxes. Pharmacists make a lot in the US ($100,000/year) but after 6 years at $50,000 it would still take 3 full years of pre-tax income to pay for their education. Brazilian tuition (except for doctors and lawyers) is much more reasonable. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 11:05
I don't even go to the most expensive law school (3rd most expensive. I have 2 scholarships 25 + 7.5 % and I Pay R$ 730 per month (for 5 years) For some amazing reason, "Gastronomia" is even more expensive. Law at PUC costs around R$ 1800/month. Medicine goes for around R$ 3000 at Estácio and R$ 1800 at UniGrandRio.
Totally agree. For "Cheap" courses like computer engineering, other engineering you's pay some R$ 400 to 500 at a good university. Also for an R$ 1500 entry level salary. BUT Most will be professionally (especially IT related) and make 3 to 4 K before even leaving University. I even know people making 8K while in 3rd year. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 30 November 2010 at 19:57
Not just students, my friend, professionals as well. I joined UK environmental consultancy as experienced professional already with three years of experience under my belt. In order to work in stack emissions monitoring in UK I was required to pass through MCERTS competency scheme. Company would sponzor for MCERTS exams only if I would agree to work for them for two years (each exam). In order to pass all the accreditation exams it can take up between year and a half to two years. After that you'd still need to work for additional two years in order to be debt free. Then there's also the issue that each competency level has expiry period of four years, after that you need to retake the exam and work for company for two years again, unless you want to pay the money back when you leave. MCERTS scheme consist of six exams (Level 1 and 2 and four technical endorsements TE1 to TE4). Paying off is based on sliding scale. I worked for them for a year and a half in the meantime I have paid for my level 1 exam at my own expences and because of that I wasn't entitled to any pay rise. And the fact that I developed new sampling technique that their fully accredited personnel wasn't able to crack also didn't move them much. Hmm thanks for that they said. Naturally I resigned so now I'm out of work for three months already. ------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 06:36
I think there’s a lesson here for all of us. Don’t work in stack emissions. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 11:10
Nor in asbestos, occupational hygiene or for a matter of fact in any environmental area in the UK .... same rules apply, accreditation exams where your must work to pay of accreditation exams. I know one company in the UK that doesn't require you to pay back money for accreditation and that is NPL, National Physical Laboratory. ------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: Juninho
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 11:23
|
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm convinced that working in the environmental sector in the UK could have a material adverse impact on my ability to transfer between employers without putting myself at serious risk of being required to re-imburse my employer for funding they may have provided for my training. I recommend we all heed this warning before we sign up. ------------- Never do today what can be put off till tomorrow, and never do at all what can be passed to others |
Posted By: 3casas
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 12:24
|
OK, no asbestos for me... Original Poster, whatever happened? Keep us updated! ------------- |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 13:00
| they are backing down a little.. well not much info at the moment! |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 02 December 2010 at 20:29
|
still have noinformatio though my co-ordinator asked why I am not applying for her job whne she leaves in january???
so one moment they are thinking of sacking me... then they are considring me for a promotion... I guess a bit of forward planning is to much to ask for??!!
|
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 03 December 2010 at 07:42
You won't find the term "foreward planning" in a Brazilian dictionary. The company I work for was actually able to pla the delivery of a new version of our software on a bank Holliday "oops we forgot". ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 07 December 2010 at 20:29
|
So why not applying for position of your co-ordinator? You can just apply there's no harm in that, maybe you can even negotiate better rate on your return?!? ------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: scottyh
Date Posted: 12 December 2010 at 10:47
| now my co -ordinator is saying just go and it will all be okay.. seems like standing your ground works... well until I return to no job!!! :) |
Posted By: ptic
Date Posted: 12 December 2010 at 11:50
|
I wouldn´t worry too much, everybody will be more than happy to get their hands on native english teacher. I´m confident you´ll be able to get new job in no time. Ask your family for a loan so you can survive on your own for some time on your return. There´s plenty of english schools about especially in Recife. There´s loads of info on forum about teaching english in Brasil, you can give private classes as well ...
------------- Jaz sem ptica selivka |
Posted By: aussiematt
Date Posted: 16 December 2010 at 14:12
|
mate - r u good at your job or just average? can u afford to be without work? what is more important to u - family or work? mate - these are questions u have to answer for yourself. me personally - i would be inclined to tell them to shove the job fair up their a**e! and then if they asked me to stay, allowing me to take the time off, i would say - sure, but my rates just went way, way up brother!! this of course wont work if u r easily replaced, but if u reckon u could work for yourself no worries, make some coin, and would enjoy it, why wouldnt you?? |
Posted By: irishdaz
Date Posted: 29 January 2011 at 15:13
|
These people sound like a pack of c**ts. Now, there is my tuppence worth. Very constructive. ------------- http://pernambucogypsy.blogspot.com - http://pernambucogypsy.blogspot.com |
Posted By: angejh
Date Posted: 29 January 2011 at 18:47
|
What ended up happening scotty? You took your holidays? Are you back at work there? Have to agree also with irishdaz in last post! ------------- “I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!” Bart Simpson |
Posted By: Isos
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 13:03
If you don't mind my asking, how long have you been in law school? How strong was your Portuguese when you started? ------------- Thanks Isos "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 13:36
|
I've been studying for 2.5 years (halfway). My portuguese wasn't as good as my English, but improved rapidly. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 14:32
Good luck proving that you *told* them.
Without justa causa he has the right of seguro-desemprego (unemployment insurance paid by the Social Security), proportional to the number of months worked.
11 faltas? The 11 he mentioned are the days the company will be closed anyway, no? I mean, holidays or whatever. Still, he could possibly not show up to work at all, and dispute later if when he gets back the company fires him under "justa causa", as the law does not say how many days you can miss work. The law even says that if "there is no good reason" for missing work they can fire under "justa causa", which is not the case as he can bring back medical papers proving his mother's health status (better yet to let the company know, in front of witnesses, before you leave, that you'll *have* to go because she's sick). However, this may not really be a good idea as the records could be made public (not sure) and he'd have the justa causa in his carteira de trabalho (if the company wins).
Indeed a fraud, but absolutely widely used (small companies, obviously), as it's hard/impossible? to prove :) But usually it's not exactly for the FGTS (as FGTS they've cleared out on previous cases), it's for the unemployment insurance (3 to 5 installments). |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 14:35
Oh, and yes, if you work 12 months (e.g. 1/jan-31/dec), the company can make you take your vacation up to just before the next one is coming due (12 months later), that is, next December you'd have your vacation because on Dec/31 you have the right of the next one. |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 14:39
Tell them that they won't be able to find a foreigner legally allowed to work there as easily or that it would take time. Besides your students already know and like you, etc. Emphasize on the "finding another foreigner who'd be able to legally work there" as a way to indirectly say that you'd let the PF know if they hire someone illegally
And if the dumbass insists, add "then you avoid competition as when I get back I don't need to open my own company" >:) |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 15:05
No need. Labor law, the "onus de prova is on them.
In cases 3 & 4, if they decide you have to work the 30 days and you don´t show up they can still sack you for justa causa. Also, in both these cases you´d have the right to recieve the holiday payment proporcionally. 
Like any brazilian, you know your labour law
------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 15:54
I'm not sure in which sense you're applying the "ônus de prova" here. I think you're trying to obfuscate your answers. If he can't prove he told the company beforehand that he already had the tickets, you're wasting time. But I guess lawyers don't care about that, as they get paid by the hour
You just need to make the clients believe and you're all set. You plan to advocate in Brazil, it seems, uh?
Note that that is your own quote, not mine, as you've mistakenly put, so I am not sure what you're laughing about. Yes, I know the labor law enough as an employee. Looks like you're trying to sell yourself, perhaps for when you're able to act as a lawyer in Brazil? Otherwise I'll just assume real lack of experience, both of which are fine :) |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 16:14
"Entretanto, a teoria do ônus da prova, como se encontra nos arts. 818 da CLT e 333 do CPC, encontra-se superada. Hoje, vige o princípio da aptidão da prova, a significar que o onus probandi é de quem possui condições de cumpri-lo." http://jus.uol.com.br/revista/texto/10176/a-inversao-do-onus-da-prova-no-processo-do-trabalho So if the judge considers it reasonable to assume that he told his new employer about his trip since he already had the tickets, it's the employer that must proof that he didn't. If you make a claim in labour court that you made 100 "horas extras" using a spreadsheet as we do at my job, the employer must proof that it where only 50.
Layers get payed a fixed fee + part of the compensation, so why stick to a case you don't believe in. Besides in Labour court, a lawyer is optional.
I prefer Judge or Promotor de Justiça.
Which is something that is hardly common in the Netherlands for example, something I consider a good thing. AFIK, it wasn't a laugh, but an ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 10 February 2011 at 17:03
lol, I found it too weird to be THAT that you meant, couldn't believe, had to ask. So, if I'm the employer I can simply say: "well, we have no obligation by law to check anything besides these x,y,z documents to hire an employer, which we have rightfully done so". And I'm not saying there is no possibility of winning, just that it is very hard and unlikely. But I guess lawyers always tend to think otherwise.
I understand the sentiment of believing, which seems to be much stronger in lawyers, lol.
phew, I'm glad.
What's a good thing? That people/companies are so trustworthy (go by the law) that they don't even need to know the law? Or that we do know the loopholes in ours?
oh, meh, don't know where I saw that, sorry. Perhaps what I meant to say is that the applause seemed ironic, like saying that I knew that because I've done that. After all, you were applauding the fact of me knowing the bad stuff. "Dispenço" tal ação. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 08:27
In law, there is no conflict between right and wrong, just a difference in opinion. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 11:28
| Exactly my point. Lawyers believe their opinion is right (but that's their job) D: |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 11:40
Same goes for many jobs. In my current job, I have many differences in opinion with my co-workers. I always think I'm right, while the other person always thinks he's right. At some point someone must change his/her opinion, or ask a third person to solve the conflict. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 12:15
Exactly, but what you're implying is that you are absolutely right on this, which is not the case. |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 12:33
No it's not. I'm just implying that you are more wrong. ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |
Posted By: eduardo
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 12:35
OK, if you wanna put it that way, I'm implying that *you* are more wrong D: |
Posted By: sven
Date Posted: 11 February 2011 at 13:24
I guess it's your BSc in computer science against my Ba and LLm and 1/2 of a second Ba in law then ------------- We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. ~Oscar Wilde |