Sorry just 36% off, that changes everything.Go for it.

Originally posted by Squiddie The existing owner is an old and sick man. He has no kids and won't take riches to his grave. His long time female partner has some more healthy years, but I take it they are OK. I am assuming they need cash now and don't have the extra cash to do the legal work. A bit of dystress on the seller side is helpful for finding good deals.

For what you are saying, the old man is NOT the actual owner on the deed. It's of the utmost importance to consider whether usucapião is an option.

Originally posted by Squiddie can say that I was pleased how fast and well things are doable in smaller-town Brazil.

The fact that the original owners are unknown, makes that usucapião might just take 3 years at minimum. Who are the owners of the properties bordering the property?


So you know the elderly couple are in need for money and they are selling it because they do. If so, they can get you in court for a suit based on "lesão".

Sven, can you please recommend an attorney who would look over the document as a second opinion consult. I would expect to pay something like a few hundred reais for such a consult. I would send them the scanned document of what I have and they would opine about those questions.

What is the chance of successful usucapião -- my attorney there is not claiming that it be quick, he said originally 2 years, upon the sight of the multiple owners and the assumption that 2 neighboring lots were involved owned by younger individuals who paid IPTU he said 5 years. Now after the survey we did, it has been proven that the neighboring lots are not involved, so we are down to the 30 year old case, still with many ancient co-owners written on the document which is still increasing his costs estimate by R$10,000.

I am not worried about the estimated cost or time of the case. I am concerned about the idea that somehow these ancient owners or their successors who might come out of the woodwork would somehow be able to get a biased preferential treatment against the gringo.

However, I need a realistic assessment, not a dooms-day-better-burn-your-money type of crying.

This issue with the lesão, I can't check. But the thing is, I am contracting with the man and his wife who is in good health. They have no successors. If they sign on to the cessão do direitos under witness and notary, then under what realistic (!) model would they suddenly turn around and sue? I mean that guy is a doctor, not every one in this world is out to get you. The key is to make a realistic assessment based on facts to understand the risks, not a paranoid better-burn-your-money risk-averse reaction.

I also don't quite understand all this assumption that everyone in the surroundings are crooks and thieves. This doc has not been at his property for a few month and the caretaker had stopped working on it. But they have the keys and there is things standing outside, like a pretty new fridge stands outside in the car port, and nobody messes with it. The people in the surroundings are all well to do and nice, the people of the neighborhood association are employed as security guard, not as thieves. There is no favela far and wide. I would be contracting with the security guy and his wife again to resume the care taking that they have been doing before.

BTW, there are no tenants of any kind nor caretakers living on the property. Though of course I would need to check off due diligence that there isn't in a few months someone showing up claiming to have lived there for the last two years.

So, Sven, can you give me some contacts of an independent attorney who actually respond to email and can look this over,, and who you believe would do a balanced analysis? Hopefully in the next few days?

Thanks.

Originally posted by Squiddie There is no favela far and wide.

What, exactly, do you think a favela is?

From what you are saying, homes built illegally on a hill overlooking the beach with no set paper trail, no proof of registry with the municipality and records of paid IPTU, etc.....it seems like you are buying into exactly that - A FAVELA - just a "higher-class", "prettier" one.

Lot's of R$200,000+ apartments in the city of Rio in areas like Recreio have been removed or are slated for removal because they were built on land that sellers promised would be able to get documents before the city reminded everyone that public land can not be taken by usacapiao and it isnt in the interest of the current administration to create an "area de especial interesse social" and hand out titles, especially not to "wealthy" people who could afford to buy those houses and thought they were being "esperto" and saving R$100k or so off market value.

If it seems like a really good deal in Brazil, it is probably an awful one.

Everyone in the world might not be out to take advantage of you, but everyone in Brazil is.

Yes, it's a general call to caveat emptor, certainly. I appreciate it.

Still trying to get down to more discernment.

May be I left it ambiguous may be in the flood not understood, but it is not true that there is no paper trail or IPTU. I think I said it up here that there are IPTU records, I have them all in hand, I was at the prefeitura to pick up some of those records. Those lots are legal. Or does the city collect IPTU on lots they later decide they want to remove? I don't think so.

So, the trick is how to get to an escritura publica from what documents are registered in the Cartório de Registro de Imóveis copies of which I have here in a folder next to me.

These documents are all Certidões stating the legal description of the lots, the old owner(s), then concluding with the following paragraph:

Que de conformidade com o contrato de promessa de cessão, datado ..., celebrando em São Paulo, Capital, os proprietários retro qualificados, devidamente representados pelo últiimo nomeado, prometaram a venda do imóvel objeto desta matrícula, à adouirente, NNN., com sede em LLL, ..., devidamente representado, pelo valor de Cr$ X, mais as despesas de corretagem no valor de Cr$ Y, dando ó total de Cr$ (X+Y), que será pago da seguinte forma: (Cr$ Z down and soandso many monthly installments, etc. etc.) Com demais encargos e condições constantes do contrato ora registrado. O Escrevente Autorizado: NNN.

There are two lots, and I have the documents for 2 neighboring lots as well. I know this is lots of information for anyone here to follow. But at least it shows that I am not dabbling on this without documents.

4 lots were sold between 1979 and 1981, by what seems like an investor community, several eminent attorneys, to 4 different parties. One of them paid the full price, and so the registered matricula is quite clear. The others all talk about installments and contain language in future tense ("será") and so none of them seems to have a final resolution registered. I find that strange. These are not stupid people, there is one very notorious person among them, a famous sports star who is now in his 50s. His lot is not involved in my transaction, but I have the papers anyway, which is good to compare and understand the history.

One lot went to the clinic of this doctor, and the other to a third party, Sr. S. This Sr. S, then sold to my doctor a few years later. That contract is also among the documents, but that contract is not typed on the same official watermarked paper, but just in plain white.

Then there is a paper of 10 years later, from the municipality to my seller, which states: "Re: revisão do lançamento: Conforme laudo fiscal, a área construida é 108,00 m2 no qual já efeituamos a regularisação. Em virtude de já ter recolhido todo o imposto (IPTU) deste exercício, V.Ses tem um crédito com a Prefeitura de XXX UFIRs que serão compensado .... Solicitamos que procure este serviço munido deste despacho para melhores escularecimentos." -- so, what this says to me is that the municipality has these lots regularized and the IPTU records all show clear statements of payment for both lots.

Now I did more research on the names of the original sellers. They may still be alive and at least their successors are, because the first 2 people were attorneys at law and the son of the first practices still and the second is a large law practice with web site. I think I could contact these original owners to find out if they might sign some "obrigação a fazer" or whatever statement would clear this 30 year old stuff. I also found what might seem the wife of that intermediate buyer and seller to my seller, who might do the same.

One concern about this is: if there is any resistance from their side, I might provoke this before I buy and things might get ugly for my seller. Not a huge problem for me, but what is a problem is if I resolve all this before I actually have a promessa da cessão dos direitos from my seler, something firm and clear, and I manage to resolve all these things with the prior owners, then my seller could say "thanks" and now raise the price on me.

So, it is a bit precarious. But I do see that there are other options than usucapião, and certainly it's not an usucapião of public land.